Heresy 197 the wit and wisdom of Old Nan

[Melifeather]

54 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

For thirteen years they had ruled, Night’s King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night’s King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.
“Some say he was a Bolton,” Old Nan would always end. “Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down.” She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. “He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon.

 

"the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage...He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down.”... “He was a Stark of Winterfell"

 

Seems pretty straightforward to me. "he was a Stark of Winterfell" and it was his brother "the Stark of Winterfell" who brought him down

Just so. In the past they were both Starks, and in the present they are both Snows and bastard "brothers".  

[JNR]

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Seems pretty straightforward to me. "he was a Stark of Winterfell" and it was his brother "the Stark of Winterfell" who brought him down

That's the canonical tale, though of course we don't know how much truth there is in it.

The World book, which is not canon, goes on to specify that the Stark in Winterfell at that time was named Brandon the Breaker.  (It doesn't say whether this means he was a breakdancer.)

[Brad Stark]

The Night's King of old Nan's tale really sounds like a tragic hero.  "A warrior who knew no fear.  And that was the fault in him".  I see him as a strong, prosperous and virtuous warrior who's lack of fear lead to his downfall.

The biggest question I have is whether he lived after The Long Night or caused it.  If he lived after, why would he approach a woman who was an Other?  This may fit better with his lack of fear, e.g. he knew she was an Other but was intrigued enough to let himself be seduced, while any other man would not.

We don't see any other female Others.  Craster only sacrificed sons. This seems to me she was created specifically for the purpose of seducing him.

If he caused The Long Night,  how was he Lord Commander at the wall?  There should be no Wall and no watch. 

We also hear how Journamum joins with the King of Winter to defeat The Night's King.  This suggests to me they were enemies and goes back to my theory that the Wall was the front of a long, protracted war.  Perhaps the Wall really was to stop wildlings,  or the people who eventually became them, or more likely raised by them to protect against invasion from the south. 

I am also going to suggest we may have the details wrong and Bran the Breaker was the Night's King.  We have the suggestion they were both named Bran, and if he was a Pact breaker,  revenge should have been against him.

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

The Night's King of old Nan's tale really sounds like a tragic hero.  "A warrior who knew no fear.  And that was the fault in him".  I see him as a strong, prosperous and virtuous warrior who's lack of fear lead to his downfall.

The biggest question I have is whether he lived after The Long Night or caused it.  If he lived after, why would he approach a woman who was an Other?  This may fit better with his lack of fear, e.g. he knew she was an Other but was intrigued enough to let himself be seduced, while any other man would not.

We don't see any other female Others.  Craster only sacrificed sons. This seems to me she was created specifically for the purpose of seducing him.

If he caused The Long Night,  how was he Lord Commander at the wall?  There should be no Wall and no watch. 

We also hear how Journamum joins with the King of Winter to defeat The Night's King.  This suggests to me they were enemies and goes back to my theory that the Wall was the front of a long, protracted war.  Perhaps the Wall really was to stop wildlings,  or the people who eventually became them, or more likely raised by them to protect against invasion from the south. 

I am also going to suggest we may have the details wrong and Bran the Breaker was the Night's King.  We have the suggestion they were both named Bran, and if he was a Pact breaker,  revenge should have been against him.

If my inversion theory holds true, then we have all the details of the story of the Nights King with Jon Snow. Jon met and took hostage, Ygritte, while on a ranging. He fell in love with her just like the Nights King was said to have done with the female Other. He didn't quite see Ygritte from atop the Wall, but she was pale with red hair, and he gave her his seed. Jon wasn't the Nights King (yet) when he was stabbed, but he was rallying a force to attack Winterfell to war with the Lord of Winterfell, his brother-in-bastardy Ramsay "Snow" but legitimized Stark, who has the King-Beyond-the-Wall captured. Melisandre warned him of his enemies, but he had no fear, or maybe didn't see anything to fear, and that led to his downfall.

The two stories are parallels, but the results are opposites. Instead of the Lord of Winterfell joining with the King Beyond the Wall to take down the Nights King, he took the king hostage. The Lord Commander wasn't the Nights King when he was stabbed, but he may be resurrected as an "Other kind of life". In the old tale the Nights King stays dead, but this time he may not.

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

The Night's King of old Nan's tale really sounds like a tragic hero.  "A warrior who knew no fear.  And that was the fault in him".  I see him as a strong, prosperous and virtuous warrior who's lack of fear lead to his downfall.

The biggest question I have is whether he lived after The Long Night or caused it.  If he lived after, why would he approach a woman who was an Other?  This may fit better with his lack of fear, e.g. he knew she was an Other but was intrigued enough to let himself be seduced, while any other man would not.

We don't see any other female Others.  Craster only sacrificed sons. This seems to me she was created specifically for the purpose of seducing him.

If he caused The Long Night,  how was he Lord Commander at the wall?  There should be no Wall and no watch. 

We also hear how Journamum joins with the King of Winter to defeat The Night's King.  This suggests to me they were enemies and goes back to my theory that the Wall was the front of a long, protracted war.  Perhaps the Wall really was to stop wildlings,  or the people who eventually became them, or more likely raised by them to protect against invasion from the south. 

I am also going to suggest we may have the details wrong and Bran the Breaker was the Night's King.  We have the suggestion they were both named Bran, and if he was a Pact breaker,  revenge should have been against him.

I agree as to the tragic hero. The story of the Nights King is of course MacBeth translated into Westerosi and the degree of character assassination that went into Mr Shakespeare's production should warn us against taking Old Nan's version too literally. 

It's interesting for example that the white lady is never referred to as a white walker or as an Other. There is that reference to her as his corpse Queen, but the World Book gamely suggests a connection to the Barrow Kings. Of itself that's at least plausible but I'm still more inclined to look at Brandon the Breaker breaking the Stark connection to Winter and a Nightfort which predated the Nights Watch and where people with starry blue eyes were once honoured guests. 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

I agree as to the tragic hero. The story of the Nights King is of course MacBeth translated into Westerosi and the degree of character assassination that went into Mr Shakespeare's production should warn us against taking Old Nan's version too literally. 

It's interesting for example that the white lady is never referred to as a white walker or as an Other. There is that reference to her as his corpse Queen, but the World Book gamely suggests a connection to the Barrow Kings. Of itself that's at least plausible but I'm still more inclined to look at Brandon the Breaker breaking the Stark connection to Winter and a Nightfort which predated the Nights Watch and where people with starry blue eyes were once honoured guests. 

I agree the original Lord of Winterfell, Brandon the Breaker, likely did break the Stark's connection to winter. It fits again with the inversion. And Jon will be the one to restore the connection, albeit briefly, because if Summer's name has anything to do with foretelling the future, there will be a spring and summer after winter has it's way and ravages the land all the way to Kings Landing.

[The Fattest Leech]

Hi guys. I am not sure how heresy works here ( I have heard rumors ), but I wanted to add a few comments if that is ok. If not, just ignore me and keep going

On 4/6/2017 at 1:29 PM, Feather Crystal said:

If my inversion theory holds true, then we have all the details of the story of the Nights King with Jon Snow. Jon met and took hostage, Ygritte, while on a ranging. He fell in love with her just like the Nights King was said to have done with the female Other.

Jon did, but that seemed to be for duty while someone else may be for love.

"for love is the bane of honor, the death of duty."

Quote

He didn't quite see Ygritte from atop the Wall,

Jon did spy Val from atop the Wall, and she was milking a she-goat, which is symbolic all in itself as well.

Quote

but she was pale

Val is described by Jon as moon-pale and the like.

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with red hair,

The fact that Ygriite was kissed by fire could be the "red herring" in the clues . Besides, Jon makes the distinction himself through the books that he is more of the old gods.

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and he gave her his seed.

He did, but chances are this will happen again with another lady, and/or it already happened when Val requested Jon move Monster over to her tower for safekeeping away from the greyscale. Val described that move as Jon "owed" her because she went and found Tormund and the other wildlings and brought them back, as promised and on time. So, Jon gave her a baby

Quote

Jon wasn't the Nights King (yet) when he was stabbed,

I totally agree.

Quote

but he was rallying a force to attack Winterfell to war with the Lord of Winterfell, his brother-in-bastardy Ramsay "Snow" but legitimized Stark, who has the King-Beyond-the-Wall captured. Melisandre warned him of his enemies, but he had no fear, or maybe didn't see anything to fear, and that led to his downfall.

The two stories are parallels, but the results are opposites. Instead of the Lord of Winterfell joining with the King Beyond the Wall to take down the Nights King, he took the king hostage. The Lord Commander wasn't the Nights King when he was stabbed, but he may be resurrected as an "Other kind of life". In the old tale the Nights King stays dead, but this time he may not.

I very much agree with this (and I don't think Jon is dead anyway). We readers are told time and again, especially by Sam, that written history is vague and not complete and twisted by the author for whatever reason.

On 4/5/2017 at 1:02 PM, Feather Crystal said:

Just so. In the past they were both Starks, and in the present they are both Snows and bastard "brothers".  

Maybe the other "bastard brother" who brought him down in the past was re-made into Othell Yarwyck, a brother of the NW, and the First Builder as well. Yarwyck, Slynt, Marsh and Thorne are all over heard conspiring against Jon Snow to try and kill him before Jon was voted Lord Commander. Interestingly enough, Yarwyck is sent to Nightfort in ADWD. Anyway, Yarwyck, Slynt, Marsh and Thorne all conspire a few times to kill Jon, but with Slynt dead, Yarwyck moved away, and Thorne out ranging, that just leaves the bumbliest one of them all, Marsh, to carry through with a hasty stabbing because he saw an opportunity after Jon read the PL and then the bleeding star of Ser Patrek happening. (I actually think Mel has a lot to do with it as well. But that is another thread. Oh, and Tormund is Joramun in the *new* tale. Again, another thread )

[Black Crow]

14 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Hi guys. I am not sure how heresy works here ( I have heard rumors ), but I wanted to add a few comments if that is ok. If not, just ignore me and keep going

Jon did, but that seemed to be for honor while someone else may be for love.

"for love is the bane of honor, the death of duty."

Jon did spy Val from atop the Wall, and she was milking a she-goat, which is symbolic all in itself as well.

Val is described by Jon as moon-pale and the like.

The fact that Ygriite was kissed by fire could be the "red herring" in the clues . Besides, Jon makes the distinction himself through the books that he is more of the old gods.

He did, but chances are this will happen again with another lady, and/or it already happened when Val requested Jon move Monster over to her tower for safekeeping away from the greyscale. Val described that move as Jon "owed" her because she went and found Tormund and the other wildlings and brought them back, as promised and on time. So, Jon gave her a baby

I totally agree.

I very much agree with this (and I don't think Jon is dead anyway). We readers are told time and again, especially by Sam, that written history is vague and not complete and twisted by the author for whatever reason.

Maybe the other "bastard brother" who brought him down in the past was re-made into Othell Yarwyck, a brother of the NW, and the First Builder as well. Yarwyck, Slynt, Marsh and Thorne are all over heard conspiring against Jon Snow to try and kill him before Jon was voted Lord Commander. Interestingly enough, Yarwyck is sent to Nightfort in ADWD. Anyway, Yarwyck, Slynt, Marsh and Thorne all conspire a few times to kill Jon, but with Slynt dead, Yarwyck moved away, and Thorne out ranging, that just leaves the bumbliest one of them all, Marsh, to carry through with a hasty stabbing because he saw an opportunity after Jon read the PL and then the bleeding star of Ser Patrek happening. (I actually think Mel has a lot to do with it as well. But that is another thread. Oh, and Tormund is Joramun in the *new* tale. Again, another thread )

Welcome to Heresy, you're doing just fine 

There's a lot in here I can agree with. More is good

[Melifeather]

14 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Hi guys. I am not sure how heresy works here ( I have heard rumors ), but I wanted to add a few comments if that is ok. If not, just ignore me and keep going

Jon did, but that seemed to be for honor while someone else may be for love.

"for love is the bane of honor, the death of duty."

Jon did spy Val from atop the Wall, and she was milking a she-goat, which is symbolic all in itself as well.

Val is described by Jon as moon-pale and the like.

The fact that Ygriite was kissed by fire could be the "red herring" in the clues . Besides, Jon makes the distinction himself through the books that he is more of the old gods.

He did, but chances are this will happen again with another lady, and/or it already happened when Val requested Jon move Monster over to her tower for safekeeping away from the greyscale. Val described that move as Jon "owed" her because she went and found Tormund and the other wildlings and brought them back, as promised and on time. So, Jon gave her a baby

I totally agree.

I very much agree with this (and I don't think Jon is dead anyway). We readers are told time and again, especially by Sam, that written history is vague and not complete and twisted by the author for whatever reason.

Maybe the other "bastard brother" who brought him down in the past was re-made into Othell Yarwyck, a brother of the NW, and the First Builder as well. Yarwyck, Slynt, Marsh and Thorne are all over heard conspiring against Jon Snow to try and kill him before Jon was voted Lord Commander. Interestingly enough, Yarwyck is sent to Nightfort in ADWD. Anyway, Yarwyck, Slynt, Marsh and Thorne all conspire a few times to kill Jon, but with Slynt dead, Yarwyck moved away, and Thorne out ranging, that just leaves the bumbliest one of them all, Marsh, to carry through with a hasty stabbing because he saw an opportunity after Jon read the PL and then the bleeding star of Ser Patrek happening. (I actually think Mel has a lot to do with it as well. But that is another thread. Oh, and Tormund is Joramun in the *new* tale. Again, another thread )

YES! All of this fits the Nights King's tale! Too bad we don't have more details about King Sherrit to compare with Stannis. 

[The Fattest Leech]

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

YES! All of this fits the Nights King's tale! Too bad we don't have more details about King Sherrit to compare with Stannis. 

I think Selyse (with Mel) is the new King Sherrit. Selyse is supposed to be on her way to Nightfort as Stannis claimed it for his own. I noticed a lot more about Selyse when I did my Nymeria thread work. Selyse and Stannis' identities have split like two sides of a coin. In my opinion, they are working for two opposing objectives now. I think Mel and Stannis have even split and one of the small clues comes in Mel's ADWD chapter where she remarks how her bed sees little use without Stannis.

[The Fattest Leech]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Welcome to Heresy, you're doing just fine 

There's a lot in here I can agree with. More is good

Thanks

You guys still make me nervous because you all seem to have a much better memory than I do. However, I am all about not accepting many common theories as "truth" just because it was "solved" five years ago. I do peek in here every now and again because this is interesting discussion.

[JNR]

37 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

However, I am all about not accepting many common theories as "truth" just because it was "solved" five years ago.

And this is the fundamental concept behind Heresy, as I imagine you deduced from the thread title. 

Welcome aboard. 

I  like this:

19 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Jon did spy Val from atop the Wall, and she was milking a she-goat, which is symbolic all in itself as well.

Because of how neatly it fits with this:

Quote

You also see this in the tale of the Night's King; if he spied his true love from atop the Wall, and knew her to be attractive, he certainly wasn't standing seven hundred feet above her.  Not unless he had military-grade binoculars.

A Myrish lens, that Aemon used to use to look at the stars, is a pretty fair substitute for military-grade binoculars.

[The Fattest Leech]

5 minutes ago, JNR said:

And this is the fundamental concept behind Heresy, as I imagine you deduced from the thread title. 

Welcome aboard. 

I  like this:

Because of how neatly it fits with this:

A Myrish lens, that Aemon used to use to look at the stars, is a pretty fair substitute for military-grade binoculars.

Oooh, goddamn! You just put a smile on my face for the rest of the day.

And thanks for the welcome. I am a bit of a sneak attack lurker these days with my new work schedule, but I enjoy the discussion always.

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, JNR said:

A Myrish lens, that Aemon used to use to look at the stars, is a pretty fair substitute for military-grade binoculars.

But of course unnecessary if he espied the white lady from a wall within the Nightfort... 

[JNR]

54 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

But of course unnecessary if he espied the white lady from a wall within the Nightfort... 

Well, it certainly couldn't be that -- not if you buy the original myth:

Quote

A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall

But the larger point is that many thousands of years ago, according to the canon, and GRRM, and me, the Wall was much shorter than it currently is. 

So if the Night's King saw and was drawn to this woman from "atop the Wall," way back then when there had only been 13 LCs, that's easy enough to understand, because he wasn't anywhere close to 700 feet up.

 

[aDanceWithFlagons]

On 4/5/2017 at 11:06 AM, Black Crow said:

For thirteen years they had ruled, Night’s King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night’s King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.
“Some say he was a Bolton,” Old Nan would always end. “Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down.” She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. “He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon.

 

"the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage...He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down.”... “He was a Stark of Winterfell"

 

Seems pretty straightforward to me. "he was a Stark of Winterfell" and it was his brother "the Stark of Winterfell" who brought him down

In the current story, 'A Stark of Winterfell" is Jon and 'The Stark of Winterfell' is Bran. Instead of Joramun, leader of the free folk, there is Tormund. Tormund Giantsbane, Horn-blower, and Breaker of Ice, Speaker to Gods and Father of Hosts [...]

It's a reversal of the old tales of the Night's King. Or maybe the tales are wrong and the current story is a repeat of the original. 

 

[Black Crow]

11 hours ago, JNR said:

Well, it certainly couldn't be that -- not if you buy the original myth:

But the larger point is that many thousands of years ago, according to the canon, and GRRM, and me, the Wall was much shorter than it currently is. 

So if the Night's King saw and was drawn to this woman from "atop the Wall," way back then when there had only been 13 LCs, that's easy enough to understand, because he wasn't anywhere close to 700 feet up.

 

Stories grow with the telling, but as to the wider point. It took some time for the Wall to be completed certainly, hundreds of years as I recall, though how completion is defined is an open question.

As to the height of the Wall, we don't have a starting point, so I'd be very reluctant to accept a starting point of say 100 feet high on completion and subsequent generations raising it to its present 700 feet, especially with no evidence of the massive [and progressively grander] engineering works necessary to accomplish that - or the records. I remain very much of the view that the Wall was raised by magick and that any subsequent increase in its size has been inconsequential. GRRM's remarks are very much in the nature of "haven't worked out the mechanics, don't want to go into it, go away."

[Brad Stark]

The Night's King seems like someone who could have any woman he wanted.   Even if the Wall was 10 feet tall and she was 20 feet away, he didn't approach her because she was more beautiful than any other woman, even with a myrish lens,  I doubt he could see her in enough details to see beauty that separates her from any other women on earth.

It doesn't say he fell in love with her from the top of the Wall.  He could have merely seen something unusual and went to investigate and became anamored once he got close. 

It wasn't in the story,  but I suspect she looked like someone he lost.  Suppose he was Azor Ahai, and killed Nisa Nisa to save the world years ago and now saw her standing their naked and alone on the north side of the Wall.  I think we will see the same thing with Yigrette.  I know her body was burned,  but this works whether this actually is her, or just a monster made to look like her.

[JNR]

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I remain very much of the view that the Wall was raised by magick and that any subsequent increase in its size has been inconsequential. GRRM's remarks are very much in the nature of "haven't worked out the mechanics, don't want to go into it, go away."

I incline more toward thinking GRRM understands his own fictional reality better than you -- or any of us -- do. 

When he says

Quote

Yes, the Wall was much smaller when first raised. It took hundreds of years to complete and thousands to reach its present height.

...I imagine he knows what he's talking about.

The canon is full of evidence that the Wall was not raised by magic.  For instance, the base of the Wall, its oldest portion, is blocks.  Jon reports it continues to be blocks as he climbs, imperfectly laid so as to form chimneys and ledges.

So whatever magic you have in mind, it would have to be a magic that first created blocks of ice, and then stacked them on top of each other 700 feet high.  It would also have to be the slowest magic ever known, to have taken (per GRRM) thousands of years. 

Since we haven't seen gigantic blocks of ice magically creating themselves and stacking themselves atop the Wall, I'm not sure this magic exists.

[Black Crow]

56 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

The Night's King seems like someone who could have any woman he wanted.   Even if the Wall was 10 feet tall and she was 20 feet away, he didn't approach her because she was more beautiful than any other woman, even with a myrish lens,  I doubt he could see her in enough details to see beauty that separates her from any other women on earth.

It doesn't say he fell in love with her from the top of the Wall.  He could have merely seen something unusual and went to investigate and became anamored once he got close. 

It wasn't in the story,  but I suspect she looked like someone he lost.  Suppose he was Azor Ahai, and killed Nisa Nisa to save the world years ago and now saw her standing their naked and alone on the north side of the Wall.  I think we will see the same thing with Yigrette.  I know her body was burned,  but this works whether this actually is her, or just a monster made to look like her.

I think that if we're talking about glamours the distance doesn't matter, as you say, he espies the white lady from afar and follows the scent without needing to see her up close and personal from the go-get.