Jump to content

WoodsWitches; A comprahensive study of their roles past, future, & present.


The Weirwoods Eyes

Recommended Posts

Well, that wasn't exactly what I was trying to get at @ravenous reader . More that these women have a role which has significance within the culture of the Old Gods religion. Which is centred around the weirwood trees.

I think it is separate to the greenseers who actually occupy the trees but I wouldn't be surprised if some of the Woods Witches have the same kind of magic as say Jojen Reed who has green dreams. I mean how did Mother Mole receive her prophesy? was she scrying like Alys Rivers and our Red Priests? or was she dreaming like The Ghost of High Heart and Jojen?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's a very interesting O/P.  It makes sense to see Val and Dalla as Volur.  They are widely respected by the different clans, and Val seems free to travel the Haunted Forest without danger.

I think that "Woods Witch" may be a general term for any woman who lives on the margins of society and uses magic, as opposed to a proficient sorcerer, or mage, who would be more highly respected.  The male equivalent would be a hedge wizard.

 Somebody like Melisandre would probably feel insulted to be compared to a Woods Witch.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The problem I had when trying to fit them into this category is that within Wildling culture they are very much respected. Take Mother Mole, she says she has had a prophecy that they need to seek out Hardholme and they will be rescued there. And THOUSANDS of Wildlings follow her. That's not some socially ostracised loner who girls only go to for love potions and moon tea.

And when we look at the histories we find women described as woods witches who have a huge amount of power and influence and to whom great magical feats are attributed. 

And Morna certainly comes across as being a woman who is respected within the clans both as a witch and a warrior. 

What I am trying to get across is the idea that within Wildling culture we see Woods Witches as important and respected members of the community. Whose relationship within the community seems quite different to the way Southron Westerosi seem to treat Woods Witches. There is an interesting piece of dialogue between Cersei & Qyburn in feast:

Quote
"This dream concerned a witch woman I visited as a child."
"A woods witch? Most are harmless creatures. They know a little herb-craft and some midwifery, but elsewise . . ."
"She was more than that. Half of Lannisport used to go to her for charms and potions. She was mother to a petty lord, a wealthy merchant upjumped by my grandsire. This lord's father had found her whilst trading in the east. Some say she cast a spell on him, though more like the only charm she needed was the one between her thighs. She was not always hideous, or so they said. I don't recall the woman's name. Something long and eastern and outlandish. The smallfolk used to call her Maggy."
 
3

Here Qyburn gives us what we have basically been led to believe a Woods Witch is in Westeros. And Cersei seems to agree that on the whole this is a Woods Witches craft. But she says Maggy was more than that. Now the history books seem to confirm they were indeed much more than this too, as do The Ghost of High Heart whose prophesying is accurate. And Mother Mole whose prophesying is in this incident off, the ships are not rescuing them but enslaving them, but she saw ships and made the wrong conclusion. Much like Mel does on occasion. But literally, thousands had enough faith in her to follow her.  

Like I said in the OP, Imagine if a religion was not decimated but co-existed. But that over the centuries it was weakened by the predominance of the newer faith. What might happen to the practitioners of its magics? Especially in a world where there are factions actively fighting to discredit magic (Maesters)  within the regions dominated by the new religion.  Might those women end up on the fringes of society, their abilities poo-pooed and dismissed as of no great importance. 

But yet in the far north where the Old ways still prevail; we see they are venerated. 

Mellisandre is referred to as a witch in the books, by both Wildlings and the nobility. Interestingly the two words that you used to intimate a magic user with more skill are both words which we associate with male practitioners; Sorcerer & mage. Whereas Witch is used almost exclusively to mean female magic practitioner. Mel may well be deeply offended to be referred to as a witch, especially if she is aware of the lowly status of such women in the majority of Westeros. But up at the wall, she may see that such women are taken seriously and not be bothered at all that this is what people are calling her. She never passes comment on the tendency of others to refer to her as a witch.  Some of the magics described in the historical accounts pertaining to woods witches would certainly fall under great and powerful magics, but no one is referring to them as sorcerers or Mages. But Marwyn is called a Mage and he's not going about demonstrating his great and powerful magic on a public platform. 

 

Hedge wizards are a bit of a mystery. We hear of them only 4 times in all the books and the information we get is scanty at best. Maester Lewin has Choice things to say about them when the steward from Deepwood Motte says he has not lain aside much of the harvest on a hedge wizards say so that there will be a bountiful spirit summer before the cold comes. Now, what did Maester Lewin say? And is it any different to everything else he has to say about magic in general. The Hedge wizard was wrong, there has been no opportunity for a further harvest since AGOT when this was said. So is he just inept? has little or no vision? Marwyn is said to keep the company of Hedge Wizards, and I'll be honest if he thinks them worth listening to I'm inclined to agree that they have worth. Davos notes one has set up stall in White Harbour. But we hear nothing at all as to what his wares are, and finally, Cersei regales us that someone tried to pass a head off as Tyrion's claiming a hedge wizard grew back his nose. So it seems they hold the same status as woods witches in the main part of Westeros. But that they are rarer and we don't have any historical accounts of them having great powers. Maybe they just are not as common? maybe they are not of the Old Gods like it seems Woods Witches are but are simply male magic practitioners who have learnt some of the same practices. Indeed it seems likely they are like Hedge Knights in that they travel around. Whereas Woods Witches don't appear to do that. They seem more inclined to have homes even if outside of Wildling culture those homes are on the fringes of society. Meaning the Hedge wizards don't have enough skills to maintain a steady source of income in one are. So they travel and pick up trade as they go. Whereas a woods witch can stay in one place knowing that she'll get enough trade to support herself. So they offer something more frequently required. my guess is it's the moontea, abortions and midwifery that provides that stability.

But as my main point is not about what people in the main part of Westeros currently think of Woods Witches but rather what does what we have learnt as a whole tell us about Woods Witches and there roll beyond the wall, and historically. I think it is more important to assess this aspect of the story. Than the dismissiveness with which those in the seven dominated bulk of the country think. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Even though thousands follow MM, I actually have a feeling that Mother Mole is a bit of a charlatain in her practice just as we see with Mel. Every faith/practice has their frootloop. 

But that's just me ^_^

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think she's just misinterpreted a vision/dream. If thousands have followed her it indicates that previously she has given people reason to have faith in her prophecies. And we know ships did indeed arrive at Hardholme and the Wildlings were taken aboard.  Just not in the rescuing manner MM predicted. 

Seems like a case of mellisandre syndrome to me; she saw the right thing but interpreted it wrongly. 

Arya tells us that Slavers took many many wildlings from hardholme, and later in Cotter Pykes letter he conveys that the wildlings don't trust them and think they are going to take them into slavery. Meaning they have grown wary after the slave ships took so many. I wish we knew the nature of her prophesey. ie: vision in some media such as fire, water or air. Or dream. Not that it matters too much  we know from Jojen's dreams that they are as easy to misunderstand as visions are. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I think she's just misinterpreted a vision/dream. If thousands have followed her it indicates that previously she has given people reason to have faith in her prophecies. And we know ships did indeed arrive at Hardholme and the Wildlings were taken aboard.  Just not in the rescuing manner MM predicted. 

Seems like a case of mellisandre syndrome to me; she saw the right thing but interpreted it wrongly. 

Arya tells us that Slavers took many many wildlings from hardholme, and later in Cotter Pykes letter he conveys that the wildlings don't trust them and think they are going to take them into slavery. Meaning they have grown wary after the slave ships took so many. I wish we knew the nature of her prophesey. ie: vision in some media such as fire, water or air. Or dream. Not that it matters too much  we know from Jojen's dreams that they are as easy to misunderstand as visions are. 

I think readers can underestimate just how hard it is to interpret the visions correctly.  It would be as if we could see events taking place in a foreign country, but unless we knew about the history, politics, and culture of that foreign country, it would be very easy to misinterpret what was taking place.

Melisandre's error (and perhaps Mother Mole's) is to claim to be unerring.  One example of her skills working perfectly was where she was describing the banners of the various lords and ladies at Barrowtown to Jon Snow who could then say which family they represented.  If Melisandre was willing to discuss her visions with other people, she'd be right more often.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

But as my main point is not about what people in the main part of Westeros currently think of Woods Witches but rather what does what we have learned as a whole tell us about Woods Witches and their role beyond the wall, and historically. I think it is more important to assess this aspect of the story. Than the dismissiveness with which those in the seven dominated bulk of the country think.

We may be too hasty if we think the followers of the seven gods look on "witches" with disdain. I realize you are looking at a specific group of women who have been identified with that label but it is no accident, I think, that one of the seven gods is the Crone, and that she is associated with wisdom.

And then there's this: “the Crone… had let the first raven into the world when she peered through the door of death” (ASoS, Chap. 2). So there's an element of other-worldliness - perhaps approaching magic - associated with the Crone.

The (insipid) song about the seven gods says that the crone "sees our fates as they unfold." That's not exactly a gift of prophecy, if taken literally, but might indicate some unique respect for clarity of crones' vision, at any rate.

When I wrote up my thoughts about crones and crone figures some months ago, one of the functions that I saw undertaken regularly by these women is to help other women to get dressed. Subsequently, I've come to recognize that the many and varied ways that GRRM symbolically alludes to "skinchanging" includes the changing of clothes. So these crones who weave fabric or teach girls to sew or help them to put on a different outfit are symbolically facilitating the art of disguise or switching identities and teaching the skill to others.

I see "crone" as a title that would be acceptable to high-born folks, where "woods witch" is the label treated with disdain. As pointed out earlier on this thread, it would be similar to the distinction between a knight from a Lord's household and a hedge knight. If you look at people like Lady Dustin or Sybell Spicer or Olenna Tyrell as crone figures, the universe of wise women becomes much broader. Perhaps their power, if any, is merely in their knowledge or their positions of wealth. For what it's worth, though, in connection to the "woods" aspect of a woods witch, four of the possible crone figures on my list are "woods" women: Hornwood, Smallwood, Waynwood, and Ryswood.

I understand your goal of evaluating the special role that Woods Witches play among the Free Folk, and I think that's perfectly valid. I suspect that GRRM has in mind some parallels with other legendary figures or characters from the book, however. The wearing of a mask immediately makes me think of Quaithe. Mother Mole's vision of a fleet of ships to save her people brings to mind Queen Nymeria. Maybe Val, with her aversion to Greyscale, is to be compared to Septa Lemore, who plays a role in protecting fAegon from the stone men. I suspect that Craster's wives are the wildling equivalent of the Dosh Khaleen, helping Gilly to bring into the world that baby that will be the wildling version of the Stallion that Mounts the World.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/27/2017 at 1:14 PM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Quick final thought for the day before I go be a mum. 

Is a WoodsWitch a WoodsWitch because she lives in the woods? Or is she a WoodsWitch because she is a Witch of the Weirwood? 

I took it more as the phrase "godswife", which is an Essosi/Lhazar term for what seems to be just about the same as a woods witch in Westeros. They are a close (maybe personal) servant to the gods. Healers, midwives, and sometimes prophetic. One to the fire god, one to the weirwood trees. So a woods witch is a specific godswife, and she is married to the trees in the witch of the weirwood way you mentioned.

This is, in my opinion, not quite the same as Bran who says he does not want to be wedded to the trees, even though he is training to be a god himself. And then during Dany's funeral pyre for Drogo, she says the flames are dancing for her like they are at a wedding, and then Dany says her walking in to the fire is a wedding. She is most likely becoming a fire god/dess.

But this could also be one of those phrases that George uses that has a double entendre and it could also mean someone like (maybe) Meera if she stays with Bran, and Val with Jon.

But that is just me. 

6 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I think she's just misinterpreted a vision/dream. If thousands have followed her it indicates that previously she has given people reason to have faith in her prophecies. And we know ships did indeed arrive at Hardholme and the Wildlings were taken aboard.  Just not in the rescuing manner MM predicted. 

Seems like a case of mellisandre syndrome to me; she saw the right thing but interpreted it wrongly. 

Arya tells us that Slavers took many many wildlings from hardholme, and later in Cotter Pykes letter he conveys that the wildlings don't trust them and think they are going to take them into slavery. Meaning they have grown wary after the slave ships took so many. I wish we knew the nature of her prophesey. ie: vision in some media such as fire, water or air. Or dream. Not that it matters too much  we know from Jojen's dreams that they are as easy to misunderstand as visions are. 

Yeah, that is what I was trying to get at, but alas, I was on my phone and in the wait line for my coffee which means my head was not clear yet :P. I think Mother Mole had a vision but interpreted it incorrectly, just like Mel. I still think Mel is more of a charlatan because she admits what she sees she messes up, but ultimately she continues to put the visions forth as truth (or for someone else to interpret).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

@The Weirwoods Eyes

Well look at me preaching to you with my elementary break down of the types of magic. I now see that the conflation was that of my own foot and mouth. :P  I really enjoyed your assessment of the various types of magic and find your thoughts on MMD very intriguing.

I figured I would respond to you on this thread instead of the other as this is a great thread that I think deserves a bump.

I firmly believe Val has a huge and important role to play at Jon's side in the future, and fully support the premise of her elevated status, and that of her possibly being a woods witch in training - wherein I must give credit to@The Fattest Leech who had originally enlightened me of this possibility. Anyway, I think you have done a great job at further supporting this in my mind, and wanted to commend you on a wonderful op. :thumbsup:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Darkstream Why thank you very much. I am flattered.  

 

I've spent a lot of time on the magic side of things. I am very glad to see that it has paid off and that people like my ideas. And those of the people whom I share this fascination with.  The Fattest Leach is awesome. :) and a fair few others who I could mention here. 

And thank you for giving my thread a bump. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@The Weirwoods Eyes I'm curious for your opinion if there is a difference in magics between the use of rubies -vs- the use of moonstone. Off the top of my head ( and before coffee) I know Bloodraven uses a moonstone in the Mystery Knight most likely to glamour himself, but I think Sansa had some moonstones as well. With Sansa and her Whent blood and latent abilities, do you see any possible connections or uses? 

The moonstone/ ruby thing had chewed away at me for a while. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

@The Weirwoods Eyes I'm curious for your opinion if there is a difference in magics between the use of rubies -vs- the use of moonstone. Off the top of my head ( and before coffee) I know Bloodraven uses a moonstone in the Mystery Knight most likely to glamour himself, but I think Sansa had some moonstones as well. With Sansa and her Whent blood and latent abilities, do you see any possible connections or uses? 

The moonstone/ ruby thing had chewed away at me for a while. 

 

You know @The Fattest Leech I've often wondered that myself. I can't think of any reason why certain stones would differ in their glamour abillities. But equally there is not any evidence which I am aware of that indicates they don't. personally i always like a good moonstone. And yes Sansa has a Moonstone necklace which Joffrey gave her.  And there is a Moonstone in the pommel of Nightfall. Which is a sword which I've done a lot of work on as most of you guys know and which led me to some pretty whacked out ideas regarding Brienne and house Dayne. 

Which also led to some interesting ideas about Sunstones and @Pretty Pig contributed her ideas regarding Ruby/red stones. Which led to the notation that some Sunstones are red.   And when you think about a Ruby it lends a connection to fire especially given the fact Mellisandre uses them. And Moonstones could be connected to Ice   when you think about things purely from a colour perspective. they are after all white.  Bloodraven with his first men blood using a Moonstone always felt apropriate and the fact Sansa wears them also tends to feel like it sits right with her being a Stark. 

Rubies are also ascosiated with house Targaryen of course and house lannister, which is less fire affilliated mind. But they use them a lot. I think and I may be misrecalling here but I think the Arryn's wear moonstones? or am I just imagining they would.  Anyway asides from who else wears these stones the stones are ascosiated with House Targaryen and Stark respectivly. And with Valyrian blood and First men blood and with Fire. Which all rather recalls the duality symbolism I was coming up with for Nightfall and Dawn and the idea they too hold a stone each the Moonstone in Nightfall and the speculation of a Sunstone in Dawn. Which relates to House Tarths sigil and the castles of Morne and Evenfall Hall on Tarths Eastern and Western sides. which was were I started getting all crackpot about the Dayne's being the Mornes and house Tarth being basically the same family at their roots. each charged with an office that of Sword of the Morning and the Evenstar.

If I am correct and there is a Sunstone in Dawns hilt what significance could there be in that sunstone being of the red variety? or of the clear variety? And would it matter on anything other than a symbolic level or would it effect the swords weilder? I personally prefer the stone as a clear sunstone becuase I think that if it was a red one then when Jon describes the star in the constellation of the sword of the morning he'd have been describing a red planet and not saying it shone like a diamond, which are on the most clear. And the whole thing was kinda looping together with proto Valyrians and navigation using a sunstone based upon the theory that Vickings used on to get to America and that one would have been a clear one.  

But Pretty Pigs red stone marvel influences stuff was pretty great too and I'm genuinly wavering as to what I think. IF Rubies are fire stones and this whole duality thing comes off then it may well be a red stone. But then again maybe I'm just getting way too whacked out and tin foily over this. 

This stream of conciousness was brought to you by The Weirwoods eyes.  Yeah forgive me I have litterally just typed my imediate thoughts as they happened with no editing, or refining of my ideas. I may revise later once I've had a chance to dwell on things. 

   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK my search for Moonstones finally loaded. Shitty rural internet can't cope with Sunday browsing.

Sansa is the person most associated with moonstones in the main books, They are a frequent gift from Joffrey during the days of their betrothal it seems, as she owns a hairnet of moonstones which he gave her and is married to Tyrion wearing earrings and a necklace of moonstones also gifted by Joffrey.

Lysa Arryn wears a Moonstone and Saphire necklace when Catelyn arrives in the Eyrie and she gifts a Moonstone belt to Marillion.

Lord Sunglass who Mellsandre later burns alive wears Moonstones at his throat, wrist and finger. Which seems odd to note and I can't help note the name Sunglass could have ties to sunstones. But despite this odd little coincidence, they are strong followers of the seven, not that I suppose that matters greatly; given how many ancient first men houses turned to the seven and they are sworn to Dragonstone.

There is a Moonstone in the side room of the sept when Cersei goes to meet the HS. it is part of a carving of the seven.But it is a yellow one.

Sweets in Essos wears Moonstones.

Then, of course, we have the stone in Nightfall

and the huge one in Bloodravens brooch.

Of 13 references to Moonstones 5 are in Sansa chapters and one is in a Tyrion chapter but referencing her. so nearly half of all references involve Sansa in some way.

There were 106 references to rubies. Many of which were merely geographical references involving the ruby ford, or simply referring to things as ruby red. But of the stones, they most often come up as being worn by Lannisters or Targaryens and often adorning swords. one interesting thing Tywin says is to Tobbo Mott when discussing Oathkeeper and Widdows Wails potential scabbards, he rejects Garnets as they lack the fire of Rubies. 

And unsurprisingly a huge number of them are refrencing Mellisandres ruby, which continues to pulse and throb its way through the story.       

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

OK my search for Moonstones finally loaded. Shitty rural internet can't cope with Sunday browsing.

My Sunday slow down comes from the fact it is that everyone is home, and yet none can figure out how to do basic things like tie shoes or find the milk in the fridge <_<:lol: (mine are all old enough)

Quote

Sansa is the person most associated with moonstones in the main books, They are a frequent gift from Joffrey during the days of their betrothal it seems, as she owns a hairnet of moonstones which he gave her and is married to Tyrion wearing earrings and a necklace of moonstones also gifted by Joffrey.

Lysa Arryn wears a Moonstone and Saphire necklace when Catelyn arrives in the Eyrie and she gifts a Moonstone belt to Marillion.

Lord Sunglass who Mellsandre later burns alive wears Moonstones at his throat, wrist and finger.

Aah, thank you. I had forgotten about these items.

Quote

 

Which seems odd to note and I can't help note the name Sunglass could have ties to sunstones. But despite this odd little coincidence, they are strong followers of the seven, not that I suppose that matters greatly; given how many ancient first men houses turned to the seven and they are sworn to Dragonstone.

I agree, the name Sunglass in relation to sunstones is interesting. In the Viking days, they did use the "clear" sunstones to guide the way. So, to me, Mel burning the a metaphorical item that guides the way really says something, and I really can't shake the idea that Mel is still on a path to actually try and destroy Jon per her red god, and she is just zig-zagging and misinterpreting  her way there. I think this is the reason behind all the tears at Jon's mutiny... but that is just me and a different thread. Sorry:blushing:

Back to sunstones- A little while ago the History Channel did an episode on sunstones. I did watch the episode, but I just don't remember all of the details. They found one sunstone and they did an experiment while sailing on a historically accurate Viking ship (of some level) and they found the sunstone to be amazingly accurate. If I remember correctly, they also had to make a holder of some sort to put the stone in, or to use to translate from, or something. Anyway, it was a really interesting and fun watch. They did also make the discovery that it was later used by the English, and maybe that is how it translates to ASOIAF world with Lord Sunglass being named what he is... and the fact that Volantis is pretty much a city of Jon personified. Read the first half of ADWD/Tyrion 7 to see what I mean.

http://www.history.com/news/evidence-of-fabled-viking-navigational-tool-found

Here is a glimpse into the Tyrion chapter. It is not just the bold parts, but almost line for line shows what is going on at the wall (good and bad) at the end of ASOS and then throughout Dance. Or, it could be nothing :dunno::

As the warhorse plodded south along the river, the shops grew smaller and meaner, the trees along the street became a row of stumps. Cobblestones gave way to devilgrass beneath their horse's hooves, then to soft wet mud the color of a baby's nightsoil. The little bridges that spanned the small streams that fed the Rhoyne creaked alarmingly beneath their weight. Where a fort had once overlooked the river now stood a broken gate, gaping open like an old man's toothless mouth. Goats could be glimpsed peering over the parapets.
Old Volantis, first daughter of Valyria, the dwarf mused. Proud Volantis, queen of the Rhoyne and mistress of the Summer Sea, home to noble lords and lovely ladies of the most ancient blood. Never mind the packs of naked children that roamed the alleys screaming in shrill voices, or the bravos standing in the doors of wineshops fingering their sword hilts, or the slaves with their bent backs and tattooed faces who scurried everywhere like cockroaches. Mighty Volantis, grandest and most populous of the Nine Free Cities. Ancient wars had depopulated much of the city, however, and large areas of Volantis had begun to sink back into the mud on which it stood. Beautiful Volantis, city of fountains and flowers. But half the fountains were dry, half the pools cracked and stagnant. Flowering vines sent up creepers from every crack in the wall or pavement, and young trees had taken root in the walls of abandoned shops and roofless temples.
And then there was the smell. It hung in the hot, humid air, rich, rank, pervasive. There's fish in it, and flowers, and some elephant dung as well. Something sweet and something earthy and something dead and rotten. "This city smells like an old whore," Tyrion announced. "Like some sagging slattern who has drenched her privy parts in perfume to drown the stench between her legs. Not that I am complaining. With whores, the young ones smell much better, but the old ones know more tricks."
 
Adding to clarify if anyone wants: It was Lord Guncer Sunglass that Melisandre burned, and the connection to Sunglass/sunstone that I see is that the surviving next Lord Sunglass went to Volantis.
Quote

 

Of 13 references to Moonstones 5 are in Sansa chapters and one is in a Tyrion chapter but referencing her. so nearly half of all references involve Sansa in some way.

 

There were 106 references to rubies. Many of which were merely geographical references involving the ruby ford, or simply referring to things as ruby red. But of the stones, they most often come up as being worn by Lannisters or Targaryens and often adorning swords. one interesting thing Tywin says is to Tobbo Mott when discussing Oathkeeper and Widdows Wails potential scabbards, he rejects Garnets as they lack the fire of Rubies. 

And unsurprisingly a huge number of them are refrencing Mellisandres ruby, which continues to pulse and throb its way through the story.       

I wonder if this isn't some hint that Sansa will really be a player in the war for dawn in ways we readers don't yet know? I was like many other posters here with Sansa in the beginning. I was sorta blah about her until I started talking about her more and more, and then my appreciation for her really grew.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

My Sunday slow down comes from the fact it is that everyone is home, and yet none can figure out how to do basic things like tie shoes or find the milk in the fridge <_<:lol: (mine are all old enough)

 

I agree, the name Sunglass in relation to sunstones is interesting. In the Viking days, they did use the "clear" sunstones to guide the way. So, to me, Mel burning the a metaphorical item that guides the way really says something, and I really can't shake the idea that Mel is still on a path to actually try and destroy Jon per her red god, and she is just zig-zagging and misinterpreting  her way there. I think this is the reason behind all the tears at Jon's mutiny... but that is just me and a different thread. Sorry:blushing:

Back to sunstones- A little while ago the History Channel did an episode on sunstones. I did watch the episode, but I just don't remember all of the details. They found one sunstone and they did an experiment while sailing on a historically accurate Viking ship (of some level) and they found the sunstone to be amazingly accurate. If I remember correctly, they also had to make a holder of some sort to put the stone in, or to use to translate from, or something. Anyway, it was a really interesting and fun watch. They did also make the discovery that it was later used by the English, and maybe that is how it translates to ASOIAF world with Lord Sunglass being named what he is... and the fact that Volantis is pretty much a city of Jon personified. Read the first half of ADWD/Tyrion 7 to see what I mean.

http://www.history.com/news/evidence-of-fabled-viking-navigational-tool-found

I wonder if this isn't some hint that Sansa will really be a player in the war for dawn in ways we readers don't yet know? I was like many other posters here with Sansa in the beginning. I was sorta blah about her until I started talking about her more and more, and then my appreciation for her really grew.

 
 

Mine are also well old enough to do stuff for themselves, yet mysteriously seem utterly incapable! :bang:  

Nice catch about Mel specifically burning the metaphorical guide. 

What's your ideas on her and Jon? got a link?

I too recall having watched a documentary years ago where they used a sunstone and a historically accurate ship, but I don't often watch the history channel and had thought the one I saw was a time team one. But maybe it was the same one? I'll check the link.    When I first read the books I liked Sansa as a charcter well enough but wasn't exactly seeing her as a favourite. But now she is my second favourite character. the more I've read and discussed her the better I like her. She's a fascinating character and I am very interested in her story. I think she will indeed matter significantly.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was reminded recently about the sunstone thing while watching Vallhalla rising. Which is what gave me the light bulb moment re Dawn. I was shitfaced on rum and stoned, and just blurted it out. My husband just stared at me blankly and said what the fuck are you on about. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

What's your ideas on her and Jon? got a link?

 

I don't have anything written on those two, just lots of ideas and highlighted marks in the books. Same with Dany and her relationship to the red god. I am sure if I put anything up on this forum, the shitstorms will come a floodin'.

1 minute ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I was reminded recently about the sunstone thing while watching Vallhalla rising. Which is what gave me the light bulb moment re Dawn. I was shitfaced on rum and stoned, and just blurted it out. My husband just stared at me blankly and said what the fuck are you on about. 

Good movie. Mads :wub:

So, I am not the only one this happens to??? :lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, I do like Mads. :) haha no not the only one.  Please do put it up I'd be very interested to read it. 

Forgot to say I read ADWD Tyrion 7 but it was just him on the pig? could you tell me what you meant by Volantis being a similie for Jon? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Yes, I do like Mads. :) haha no not the only one.  Please do put it up I'd be very interested to read it. 

Forgot to say I read ADWD Tyrion 7 but it was just him on the pig? could you tell me what you meant by Volantis being a similie for Jon? 

Sorry about that. I added the info to my past post a little late. This is what I added:

Here is a glimpse into the Tyrion chapter. It is not just the bold parts, but almost line for line shows what is going on at the wall (good and bad) at the end of ASOS and then throughout Dance. Or, it could be nothing :dunno::

As the warhorse plodded south along the river, the shops grew smaller and meaner, the trees along the street became a row of stumps. Cobblestones gave way to devilgrass beneath their horse's hooves, then to soft wet mud the color of a baby's nightsoil. The little bridges that spanned the small streams that fed the Rhoyne creaked alarmingly beneath their weight. Where a fort had once overlooked the river now stood a broken gate, gaping open like an old man's toothless mouth. Goats could be glimpsed peering over the parapets.
Old Volantis, first daughter of Valyria, the dwarf mused. Proud Volantis, queen of the Rhoyne and mistress of the Summer Sea, home to noble lords and lovely ladies of the most ancient blood. Never mind the packs of naked children that roamed the alleys screaming in shrill voices, or the bravos standing in the doors of wineshops fingering their sword hilts, or the slaves with their bent backs and tattooed faces who scurried everywhere like cockroaches. Mighty Volantis, grandest and most populous of the Nine Free Cities. Ancient wars had depopulated much of the city, however, and large areas of Volantis had begun to sink back into the mud on which it stood. Beautiful Volantis, city of fountains and flowers. But half the fountains were dry, half the pools cracked and stagnant. Flowering vines sent up creepers from every crack in the wall or pavement, and young trees had taken root in the walls of abandoned shops and roofless temples.
And then there was the smell. It hung in the hot, humid air, rich, rank, pervasive. There's fish in it, and flowers, and some elephant dung as well. Something sweet and something earthy and something dead and rotten. "This city smells like an old whore," Tyrion announced. "Like some sagging slattern who has drenched her privy parts in perfume to drown the stench between her legs. Not that I am complaining. With whores, the young ones smell much better, but the old ones know more tricks."
 
Adding to clarify if anyone wants: It was Lord Guncer Sunglass that Melisandre burned, and the connection to Sunglass/sunstone that I see is that the surviving next Lord Sunglass went to Volantis.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Sansa is the person most associated with moonstones in the main books, They are a frequent gift from Joffrey during the days of their betrothal it seems, as she owns a hairnet of moonstones which he gave her and is married to Tyrion wearing earrings and a necklace of moonstones also gifted by Joffrey.

Lysa Arryn wears a Moonstone and Saphire necklace when Catelyn arrives in the Eyrie and she gifts a Moonstone belt to Marillion.

Oh this is good.  I knew the moonstones came up a bunch of times, but I never looked at it that closely.  This is so helpful. I believe also SR has a moonstone belt.  Lysa is physically described by Sansa in terms that evoke a weirwood tree and SR that nurses from her has tons of greenseer symbolism surrounding him.  It's little connections like this that lead me to believe that Sansa does have some greenseeing abilities that are dormant and George is intending to introduce a way for them to be awakened.  I don't think it's going to be on the same level as Bran, but I think there's a little something there at least.

The sunstone as a navigational tool is also very cool.  There seems to be the idea of sunstones, moonstones, and rubies being connected to "seeing," "seeming," or both.  

There's also a prominent ruby in her arc that is mentioned several times that it has to be important: the heart-shaped ruby in the pommel of Lady Forlorn.  I think this sword might be a symbol of Sansa herself.  "Lady Forlorn" is a perfect description of Sansa's emotional state in the Eyrie, sad and lonely.  And she has described herself as turning from porcelain, to ivory, to steel.  Remember at the Lord's Declarant meeting, Lyn Corbray draws Lady Forlorn out in "angry" response to Littlefinger.  It's all a ruse, Corbray is only "seeming" to be LF's foe, something that Sansa "sees" for what it truly is. 

Spoiler

It's in the sample chapter that Sansa "sees" on an even deeper level that Corbray indeed does harbor real resentment toward LF.  A foe pretending to be his friend pretending to be his foe.

 @Seams I believe made a pun of "ruby" and "bury."  Bury can reference the dead or just simply being hidden away.  Her Stark identity is buried inside her, in her heart she knows who she is.  It's on the surface she is "seeming" to be a Alayne Stone to LF, but there's other characters like Myranda Royce (refering to a Myrish lens?) that can truly "see" her.  So there might be a case of only a true "seer" can see through the "seeming."  Sorry, don't mean to derail or anything if I did.          

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...