Do the northmen know Roose killed Robb?

[ObsessedStannisFanboy]

I just finished rereading A Dance With Dragons and I realized something peculiar, I don't think it's ever explicitly stated that any of the northmen who are not already loyal to Roose know that Roose killed Robb himself. I originally just assumed everyone knew, but upon reread, I don't think they do. I think the details of the Red Wedding are very unclear to everyone who wasn't there and all anyone knows is that Stark loyalists went in, and only Bolton's and Frey's came out. Will the information that Roose killed Robb himself come out? Will it change anything? Did I just not realize that everyone already knows Roose killed Robb thus making this whole post pointless? 

[Lord Lannister]

The Boltons are known to have participated in the Red Wedding, which would seem to be more important than the details of who personally killed who.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

But everyone knew what the BOLTONS did, so i don't think they needed to know if Roose did it personally. They're a bunch of traitor who kneeled before a monster.

[ObsessedStannisFanboy]

1 minute ago, Lord Lannister said:

The Boltons are known to have participated in the Red Wedding, which would seem to be more important than the details of who personally killed who.

The Frey official propaganda story is that the Frey's killed Robb in self-defense because he attacked them. This is a big reason why so many northern lords hate the Frey's, because their story is so obviously untrue and is blatantly a scapegoat for them killing Robb. Knowing that Roose killed Robb personally with his sword, I think, would probably cause an open rebellion rather than secret rebellions and schemes behind closed doors.

[Universal Sword Donor]

“Roose Bolton lies about his part in the Red Wedding, and his bastard lies about the fall of Winterfell. And yet so long as they held Wylis I had no choice but to eat all this excrement and praise the taste.”

Unless Manderly is blustering about this particular part of this speech, I have to think at least Robett and Wyman "know" Roose took part. It's not even a negligible stretch to assume so. Ignoring that Roose is married to a Frey daughter, him marching back North with approximately none of the other northern lords who went and that his son could have told him what happened at the Trident means he can safely count on Roose not being an ally. 

[ObsessedStannisFanboy]

8 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

“Roose Bolton lies about his part in the Red Wedding, and his bastard lies about the fall of Winterfell. And yet so long as they held Wylis I had no choice but to eat all this excrement and praise the taste.”

Unless Manderly is blustering about this particular part of this speech, I have to think at least Robett and Wyman "know" Roose took part. It's not even a negligible stretch to assume so. Ignoring that Roose is married to a Frey daughter, him marching back North with approximately none of the other northern lords who went and that his son could have told him what happened at the Trident means he can safely count on Roose not being an ally. 

So they know Roose took part, and are pretty sure he did more to take down Robb than he claims, but the northern lords don't know that he killed Robb himself. Lady Stoneheart is the only witness that I can think off that would reveal this information, it could also be interrogated out of any number of Frey or Bolton men present at the Red Wedding. I'm really curious to see if the information that Roose killed Robb himself will come out, or if it will even matter.

[Lord Lannister]

46 minutes ago, ObsessedStannisFanboy said:

The Frey official propaganda story is that the Frey's killed Robb in self-defense because he attacked them. This is a big reason why so many northern lords hate the Frey's, because their story is so obviously untrue and is blatantly a scapegoat for them killing Robb. Knowing that Roose killed Robb personally with his sword, I think, would probably cause an open rebellion rather than secret rebellions and schemes behind closed doors.

Roose and his men went in and came out. Shortly after Roose is Warden of the North, so yeah they're known to be part of it. He even has Frey men supporting him. The specific details of who killed who personally are quite irrelevant. And no, open rebellion vs secret rebellions is a non-issue. Open rebellions get crushed. The northern lords are already actively undermining the Boltons and will strike when the time is right. Striking before the time is right, just because they learn Roose personally stabbed Robb would be as stupid as... well the Frey's story.

[The Mountain That Flies]

There are probably rumors about what Rose actually did himself, since it would be known to at least a few Bolton and Frey men and soldiers like to gossip, but it does not appear to be certified common knowledge.

[Jak Scaletongue]

I don't know that the knowledge of Roose dealing the killing blow to Robb is *irrelevant* exactly, but I don't think it would drastically alter the Northern Lords strategy.  There's no such thing as too much information when you're planning rebellion!  And it would be a handy piece of info for those Lords who may be sitting on a fence...(those few, like Lady Cerwyn, aren't really on the fence. They're more like "I've got no men to fight, what the hell else am I supposed to do but smile and nod?").  But I don't think it's a *crucial* bit of info for their plans.  They're taking Roose down whether he dealt the killing blow or not.

There's got to be some middle ground between "crucial, essential information" and "completely irrelevant" - that's where I'd place this tidbit; somewhere in between "crucial" and "irrelevant."

[Chris Mormont]

I don't recall reading anything regarding how Roose explained how he was the only Northern Lord spared during the Red Wedding.  Frey states that Robb attacked, but why and how Roose was left unscathed was never explained in the text.  Maybe Roose just ignored the unasked question by Northmen, why should he have to make up a lie, no one of importance is left to question him.

[Good Guy Garlan]

14 hours ago, ObsessedStannisFanboy said:

So they know Roose took part, and are pretty sure he did more to take down Robb than he claims, but the northern lords don't know that he killed Robb himself. Lady Stoneheart is the only witness that I can think off that would reveal this information, it could also be interrogated out of any number of Frey or Bolton men present at the Red Wedding. I'm really curious to see if the information that Roose killed Robb himself will come out, or if it will even matter.

I don't think even Stoneheart knows for sure, since Roose was wearing full armor and in her POV she describes the guy killing Robb as only a "man."

[Clegane'sPup]

16 hours ago, ObsessedStannisFanboy said:

Lady Stoneheart is the only witness that I can think off that would reveal this information,

This was brought up in a thread concerning the Greatjon. Greatjon was in the room. He tried to protect Robb. GJ is supposedly a hostage of the Freys. That is supposedly why the other Umber’s are (?) cooperating with Roose & the Frey’s. The question for me is, is Greatjon alive or is he dead.

Here is what Cat saw:

Quote

Storm of Swords - Catelyn VII    A man in dark armor and a pale pink cloak spotted with blood stepped up to Robb. "Jaime Lannister sends his regards." He thrust his longsword through her son's heart, and twisted

Yet the decoy Roose used when traveling through the Neck was flamboyant, like he's daring Reed's crannogmen to take their best shot.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Reek II    Back where the press was thickest at the center of the column rode a man armored in dark grey plate over a quilted tunic of blood-red leather. His rondels were wrought in the shape of human heads, with open mouths that shrieked in agony. From his shoulders streamed a pink woolen cloak embroidered with droplets of blood. Long streamers of red silk fluttered from the top of his closed helm. <snip> When the rider in the dark armor removed his helm <snip>

If Greatjon is alive, I think that he would have seen who thrust the longsword into Robb. The only evidence, text wise, that Roose stuck Robb with the pointy end is the “send my regards” line.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jaime VI    Both parties left Harrenhal the same morning, beneath a cold grey sky that promised rain. Ser Aenys Frey had marched three days before, striking northeast for the kingsroad. Bolton meant to follow him. "The Trident is in flood," he told Jaime. "Even at the ruby ford, the crossing will be difficult. You will give my warm regards to your father?"  "So long as you give mine to Robb Stark."

It’s not textually clear that Roose actually did the deed himself or if he had one of his minions do it, but Greatjon would know the trutf of it. The reason I use the word supposedly is because sometimes in these novels I find that it is difficult for me to ascertain who is doing what when. My personal opinion is that Roose did do the deed.

[Nevets]

The Greatjon and other Northern prisoners of the Freys have been ordered released to Lannister custody by Jaime.  They could be subsequently released (either by the Lannisters or a rescue), in which case what they witnessed could become general knowledge, potentially including Roose's personal involvement in Robb's death.

in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter, though.  The Northern Lords have sufficient reason to hate Roose and plot against him even without knowing the precise role he played in Robb's death.  His involvement in the RW and close association with the Freys is ample reason to oppose him.

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

This was brought up in a thread concerning the Greatjon. Greatjon was in the room. He tried to protect Robb. GJ is supposedly a hostage of the Freys. That is supposedly why the other Umber’s are (?) cooperating with Roose & the Frey’s. The question for me is, is Greatjon alive or is he dead.

Here is what Cat saw:

Yet the decoy Roose used when traveling through the Neck was flamboyant, like he's daring Reed's crannogmen to take their best shot.

If Greatjon is alive, I think that he would have seen who thrust the longsword into Robb. The only evidence, text wise, that Roose stuck Robb with the pointy end is the “send my regards” line.

It’s not textually clear that Roose actually did the deed himself or if he had one of his minions do it, but Greatjon would know the trutf of it. The reason I use the word supposedly is because sometimes in these novels I find that it is difficult for me to ascertain who is doing what when. My personal opinion is that Roose did do the deed.

Whether or not Greatjon or LS can identify Roose as the killer, he has far too many questions to answer to feel safe in any way shape or form.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

The North knows Roose Bolton stuck a sword in Robb Stark's back - one doesn't get appointed Warden of the North by Tywin Lannister for free. Maybe they don't know that Roose Bolton literally stuck a sword in Robb Stark's back.

But - does it really matter?

“This will be my last winter. Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue.”

So if the whole truth of the Red Wedding comes out, Roose Bolton will be liked slightly less. Slightly. The family is disliked enough as it is.

[ObsessedStannisFanboy]

7 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

I don't think even Stoneheart knows for sure, since Roose was wearing full armor and in her POV she describes the guy killing Robb as only a "man."

I forgot about that. She never realizes it's Roose Bolton. She does know that northmen came into the room and started killing other northmen, so by now she probably knows it was Bolton men who betrayed the Stark's.

[Sourjapes]

I might remember it wrong, but I don't think the Great Jon actually witnessed Robb's death. He was off with Edmure attending the bedding ceremony. It was his son who remained in the dining hall and he was decapitated by a Bolton man.

 

It seems that everybody strongly suspects that the Boltons took part. The Mountain Clans, White Harbor, and apparently the Glovers assume since they DO KNOW about Ramsay's treachery which preceded the Red Wedding. It might not actually be correct, but it would be logical to assume that Ramsay was acting on his father's orders. Otherwise, if there was no Wex and no sighting of Bran then I think more Northern lords would be unsure about Roose's side of the story. If I were him, I'd tell them this:

 

"I arrived at the wedding late with my men mostly beginning to settle down outside the main festivities before they could take part. Since I am married to a Frey I was spared and released. My men survived because of our late arrival and since I've a Frey wife and still have my forces Tywin Lannister saw fit to appoint me Warden of the North and commanded me to defend it against the Ironborn and Wildling invaders. After all, who else would King's Landing send? They still have rebellious lords in the Riverlands, including the Blackfish, Stannis sits at Dragonstone, and the Reach and the Westerlands have never been close lovers."

 

It is a very convenient story... but it does make sense. It is plausible.

[ObsessedStannisFanboy]

5 hours ago, Sourjapes said:

I might remember it wrong, but I don't think the Great Jon actually witnessed Robb's death. He was off with Edmure attending the bedding ceremony. It was his son who remained in the dining hall and he was decapitated by a Bolton man.

 

It seems that everybody strongly suspects that the Boltons took part. The Mountain Clans, White Harbor, and apparently the Glovers assume since they DO KNOW about Ramsay's treachery which preceded the Red Wedding. It might not actually be correct, but it would be logical to assume that Ramsay was acting on his father's orders. Otherwise, if there was no Wex and no sighting of Bran then I think more Northern lords would be unsure about Roose's side of the story. If I were him, I'd tell them this:

 

"I arrived at the wedding late with my men mostly beginning to settle down outside the main festivities before they could take part. Since I am married to a Frey I was spared and released. My men survived because of our late arrival and since I've a Frey wife and still have my forces Tywin Lannister saw fit to appoint me Warden of the North and commanded me to defend it against the Ironborn and Wildling invaders. After all, who else would King's Landing send? They still have rebellious lords in the Riverlands, including the Blackfish, Stannis sits at Dragonstone, and the Reach and the Westerlands have never been close lovers."

 

It is a very convenient story... but it does make sense. It is plausible.

Yes. The people above are mistaken. The Greatjon was not in the dining hall where Robb was killed. 

[Clegane'sPup]

5 hours ago, Sourjapes said:

I might remember it wrong, but I don't think the Great Jon actually witnessed Robb's death. He was off with Edmure attending the bedding ceremony. It was his son who remained in the dining hall and he was decapitated by a Bolton man.

You remembered correctly. I went back and read the chapter. It was Smalljon in the room not Greatjon.

14 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Whether or not Greatjon or LS can identify Roose as the killer, he has far too many questions to answer to feel safe in any way shape or form.

I got my Jon's mixed up in my post. Roose does have a lot to answer for.

[devilish]

Well there’s a massacre, those who survive are taken hostage apart from Roose Bolton who ends up Warden of the North, his son ends up legitimised and he returns North with a Frey bride. That’s fishy. 

Roose should have asked Walder to stage an attack on him (ie someone wounding him slightly) only to ‘arrest him’ for a couple of weeks. After his detention period is over, Roose would ‘negotiate his way out’ by bending the knee to King Joffrey and marry Walder’s daughter. He would return in the North as a shrewd negotiator  who might negotiate a way out for other hostage rather than as a backstabber.