Do the northmen know Roose killed Robb?

[rotting sea cow]

2 hours ago, devilish said:

Well there’s a massacre, those who survive are taken hostage apart from Roose Bolton who ends up Warden of the North, his son ends up legitimised and he returns North with a Frey bride. That’s fishy. 

Roose should have asked Walder to stage an attack on him (ie someone wounding him slightly) only to ‘arrest him’ for a couple of weeks. After his detention period is over, Roose would ‘negotiate his way out’ by bending the knee to King Joffrey and marry Walder’s daughter. He would return in the North as a shrewd negotiator  who might negotiate a way out for other hostage rather than as a backstabber.
 

The problem is that Roose has reason to fear for himself too. Look at this.

Quote

Bolton had made a toast to Lord Walder's grandsons when the wedding feast began, pointedly mentioning that Walder and Walder were in the care of his bastard son. From the way the old man had squinted at him, his mouth sucking at the air, Catelyn knew he had heard the unspoken threat.

A Storm of Swords - Catelyn VII

He had no reasons to believe the Freys or Lannisters would honor whatever promise they made, so stagging a mummer's farce is highly risky.

[devilish]

35 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

The problem is that Roose has reason to fear for himself too. Look at this.

A Storm of Swords - Catelyn VII

He had no reasons to believe the Freys or Lannisters would honor whatever promise they made, so stagging a mummer's farce is highly risky.

Both Freys and Boltons were giving a costly bailout for their disloyalty to the crown, which will haunt them for generations.  These two houses were hated by most houses in their region + they weren’t trusted by the crown, with the latter already working hard to get them out of the way. With Walder things were pretty much set in stone. A Valeman loyal to the crown was appointed LP, Lancel was given Darry Castle and Riverrun was given to a house which was Lannister in all but name. Meanwhile, Sansa was married off to the Imp and soon enough a young lion would have been born with claims over Winterfell and the North. 

Walder had no choice but to agree to the crown’s demands. His betrayal costed Jamie his arm + with the Riverlands being the punching bag of Westeros he had no choice to comply.  If the crown changed their mind about Walder or Genna decided to pester her brother to give her the twins then Walder’s union with the Boltons would have been the only thing Walder standing between him and total annihilation.  

Things are different for Roose. The North is wild, vast and cold. It can only be ruled by a Stark or possibly a Bolton and rest assured that neither Mace nor Tywin were in the mood to raise armies and sanction wars in that freezing wasteland, the North call home.  Roose could have easily negotiated a better deal for himself. He was the only man who could prevent a potential revolt in the North. A bit of acting and the return of some hostages who saw Roose being injured and captured would be a very small price for the crown to pay. After all, Roose did spared Jamie didn’t he? 

Honestly if I was Roose I wouldn’t settle for anything less. Actually I would have asked for more (ie Sansa Stark)
 

[Protagoras]

No, but they don´t need to be 100% sure. Only Manderley has access to Wex and not everyone trust his word either. But people will start asking questions. Questions Roose have a hard time explaining.

Roose was given Lord Paramountship, legalization for Ramsay and Winterfell. If he is not involved, then certainly he was willing to cut a deal with the crown very cheap and very fast. Strange wonder that Roose is rewarded while other northern families are punished. If Roose was "only negotiating to end the war" I can see the Lord Paramount-thing, but why is he given Winterfell? Why not give that to someone loyal?

But there is an even larger problem with the Boltons namely Ramsay. He is a mad dog whose idea of fun have reached the ears of the other lords. This guy will be your future lord paramount if nothing is done. And he is known for his methods before.

Wylla: He won't ever be my lord! He made Lady Hornwood marry him, then shut her in a dungeon and made her eat her fingers.
Locke: The maid tells it true. Roose Bolton's cold and cunning, aye, but a man can deal with Roose. We've all known worse. But this bastard son of his ... they say he's mad and cruel, a monster.

Roose is not the big issue here. With a suitable heir and some appeasments all around, he could in theory handle this situation, especially since several lord are dead after the war and their successors might be interested in staying low. But Ramsay make it hard to win friends. Indeed, the friend he do seem to have might turn against him only because of Ramsay.

[Lord Lannister]

5 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

The problem is that Roose has reason to fear for himself too. Look at this.

A Storm of Swords - Catelyn VII

He had no reasons to believe the Freys or Lannisters would honor whatever promise they made, so stagging a mummer's farce is highly risky.

Good catch. That one slipped from my mind. My guess, in hindsight, would be that statement was to remind Walder that Roose was in on the plot and to be careful of the Bolton men and if his men got too unrestrained in killing northmen, his blood would pay the price.

[rotting sea cow]

4 hours ago, devilish said:

Both Freys and Boltons were giving a costly bailout for their disloyalty to the crown, which will haunt them for generations.  These two houses were hated by most houses in their region + they weren’t trusted by the crown, with the latter already working hard to get them out of the way. With Walder things were pretty much set in stone. A Valeman loyal to the crown was appointed LP, Lancel was given Darry Castle and Riverrun was given to a house which was Lannister in all but name. Meanwhile, Sansa was married off to the Imp and soon enough a young lion would have been born with claims over Winterfell and the North. 

Walder had no choice but to agree to the crown’s demands. His betrayal costed Jamie his arm + with the Riverlands being the punching bag of Westeros he had no choice to comply.  If the crown changed their mind about Walder or Genna decided to pester her brother to give her the twins then Walder’s union with the Boltons would have been the only thing Walder standing between him and total annihilation.  

Things are different for Roose. The North is wild, vast and cold. It can only be ruled by a Stark or possibly a Bolton and rest assured that neither Mace nor Tywin were in the mood to raise armies and sanction wars in that freezing wasteland, the North call home.  Roose could have easily negotiated a better deal for himself. He was the only man who could prevent a potential revolt in the North. A bit of acting and the return of some hostages who saw Roose being injured and captured would be a very small price for the crown to pay. After all, Roose did spared Jamie didn’t he? 

Honestly if I was Roose I wouldn’t settle for anything less. Actually I would have asked for more (ie Sansa Stark)
 

Roose doesn't have many options and got in the end a good deal. If he remains 'loyal' to King Robb and they are able to come back, all the shit Ramsay has been doing (some without Roose consent) will come to light and he will lose his head. If he doesn't comply with Tywin demands he risks to become trapped below the Neck and lose his head.

Tywin is not interested in the governance of the North at all. This is clear in Tyrion's chapters in ASOS. He is interested to weaken the North further, so he is happy letting the iroborn/wilding/northmen kill each other. Winter is coming and the North will not receive assistance from the South unless they bend the knee.

Roose got a good deal for what he did.

 

 

 

[rotting sea cow]

2 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Good catch. That one slipped from my mind. My guess, in hindsight, would be that statement was to remind Walder that Roose was in on the plot and to be careful of the Bolton men and if his men got too unrestrained in killing northmen, his blood would pay the price.

Indeed. As explained above the situation of Roose was not comfortable at all (which doesn't justify his actions). I could even imagine that Ramsay was blackmailing Roose regarding the little Freys, so he could get a legitimization, etc. 

[Lord Wraith]

On 3/29/2017 at 4:09 PM, Protagoras said:

No, but they don´t need to be 100% sure. Only Manderley has access to Wex and not everyone trust his word either. But people will start asking questions. Questions Roose have a hard time explaining.

Roose was given Lord Paramountship, legalization for Ramsay and Winterfell. If he is not involved, then certainly he was willing to cut a deal with the crown very cheap and very fast. Strange wonder that Roose is rewarded while other northern families are punished. If Roose was "only negotiating to end the war" I can see the Lord Paramount-thing, but why is he given Winterfell? Why not give that to someone loyal?

But there is an even larger problem with the Boltons namely Ramsay. He is a mad dog whose idea of fun have reached the ears of the other lords. This guy will be your future lord paramount if nothing is done. And he is known for his methods before.

Wylla: He won't ever be my lord! He made Lady Hornwood marry him, then shut her in a dungeon and made her eat her fingers.
Locke: The maid tells it true. Roose Bolton's cold and cunning, aye, but a man can deal with Roose. We've all known worse. But this bastard son of his ... they say he's mad and cruel, a monster.

Roose is not the big issue here. With a suitable heir and some appeasments all around, he could in theory handle this situation, especially since several lord are dead after the war and their successors might be interested in staying low. But Ramsay make it hard to win friends. Indeed, the friend he do seem to have might turn against him only because of Ramsay.

If Roose doesn't find some way to eliminate Ramsay in Winds I will be very surprised. Its his biggest obstacle for the North.

[Lord Lannister]

1 hour ago, Lord Wraith said:

If Roose doesn't find some way to eliminate Ramsay in Winds I will be very surprised. Its his biggest obstacle for the North.

Ramsay likely thinks the same thing of Roose.

[Lord Wraith]

2 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Ramsay likely thinks the same thing of Roose.

Indeed.

[Sourjapes]

On 3/29/2017 at 1:27 PM, rotting sea cow said:

Roose doesn't have many options and got in the end a good deal. If he remains 'loyal' to King Robb and they are able to come back, all the shit Ramsay has been doing (some without Roose consent) will come to light and he will lose his head. If he doesn't comply with Tywin demands he risks to become trapped below the Neck and lose his head.

 

 

On 3/29/2017 at 1:31 PM, rotting sea cow said:

Indeed. As explained above the situation of Roose was not comfortable at all (which doesn't justify his actions). I could even imagine that Ramsay was blackmailing Roose regarding the little Freys, so he could get a legitimization, etc. 

I've wondered this for a long time and I hope we get an answer in Winds. What Ramsay did to Lady Hornwood as well as what he pulled off at the Sack of Winterfell is just too... risky for Roose Bolton. On his end of it, even if he planned to betray later, there was no need to sack Winterfell. Bran and Rickon were already on the run, hiding. If they needed to be captured or killed that could still be done... and in fact it would be easier if they didn't already know the Boltons were traitors. They could even be kept at the Dreadfort as "wards" only to become hostages after the Red Wedding. The Hornwood affair of-course just sullied the Bolton name and Roose himself. Ramsay's claim to Hornwood would never stand with Robb still alive and even in the current political environment it is still a black mark on the Bolton rise to power, fuel for resistance, and all to gain very little when the only thing making it viable is that the Boltons have the entire North anyway. With Winterfell and the Dreadfort they don't need Hornwood. Granted Winterfell is the ruin and with winter on the way no less. A ruin Roose had to spend his pretty dowry to repair.

 

[rotting sea cow]

1 hour ago, Sourjapes said:

 

I've wondered this for a long time and I hope we get an answer in Winds. What Ramsay did to Lady Hornwood as well as what he pulled off at the Sack of Winterfell is just too... risky for Roose Bolton. On his end of it, even if he planned to betray later, there was no need to sack Winterfell. Bran and Rickon were already on the run, hiding. If they needed to be captured or killed that could still be done... and in fact it would be easier if they didn't already know the Boltons were traitors. They could even be kept at the Dreadfort as "wards" only to become hostages after the Red Wedding. The Hornwood affair of-course just sullied the Bolton name and Roose himself. Ramsay's claim to Hornwood would never stand with Robb still alive and even in the current political environment it is still a black mark on the Bolton rise to power, fuel for resistance, and all to gain very little when the only thing making it viable is that the Boltons have the entire North anyway. With Winterfell and the Dreadfort they don't need Hornwood. Granted Winterfell is the ruin and with winter on the way no less. A ruin Roose had to spend his pretty dowry to repair.

 

Indeed. It's obvious that Roose left instructions to Ramsay to take advantage of situation and they communicated and coordinated, but less often that one would guess at first. Certainly Ramsay exceeded what Roose asked, in part because of his own cruelty, in part to take advantage for himself  and force Roose to take certain paths. One shouldn't disregard Ramsay cunning. It is important to keep this in mind in the light of Winterfell actions and forthcoming battles.

Also

"In the game of thrones, even the humblest pieces can have wills of their own. Sometimes they refuse to make the moves you've planned for them. Mark that well, "

- Littlefinger

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

All of the Red Wedding is laid at the feet of the Freys .