Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 It appears to me that Jon Snow will never get Targaryen name even if he is really Rhaegar's son. In similar example of Boltons, Ramsay was accepted by his father and he was only son. But since Rhaegar is dead there is no way for Jon to get rid off being bastard. I wonder what would happen to Jon if Rhaegar didn't die in Trident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigpiginsunspear Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 I think you are asking two different questions. The first is if Jon can become legitimized. The answer to that is absolutely. He can be legitimized by Robb's will, Stannis' decree, etc. Your other question concerns his family name. That is tricky, and no one has a definite answer. He could become a Stark, again by Robb's will or by Stannis' offer. Unclear how he can become a Targ. Some folks speculate finding harp in Lyanna's grave, etc. Bunch of theories out there. I'm guessing Bran will know at some point, whatever that is worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commentator Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 12 minutes ago, pigpiginsunspear said: I think you are asking two different questions. The first is if Jon can become legitimized. The answer to that is absolutely. He can be legitimized by Robb's will, Stannis' decree, etc. Your other question concerns his family name. That is tricky, and no one has a definite answer. He could become a Stark, again by Robb's will or by Stannis' offer. Unclear how he can become a Targ. Some folks speculate finding harp in Lyanna's grave, etc. Bunch of theories out there. I'm guessing Bran will know at some point, whatever that is worth. Robb Stark was no king. Any such will to legitimize Jon the bastard is only as good as the fig leaf Tormund used to clean himself after his date with the outhouse. It will carry no weight in the south and will only carry weight in the north if they can win their independence from the Iron Throne. Jon is also guilty of treason against the Night's Watch. I don't think that crime can be swept over by the Stark loyalists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigpiginsunspear Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 23 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said: Robb Stark was no king. Any such will to legitimize Jon the bastard is only as good as the fig leaf Tormund used to clean himself after his date with the outhouse. It will carry no weight in the south and will only carry weight in the north if they can win their independence from the Iron Throne. Jon is also guilty of treason against the Night's Watch. I don't think that crime can be swept over by the Stark loyalists. Not the point. The point is that Jon can be legitimized by Royal decree, as Ramsay was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandru Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 41 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said: Robb Stark was no king. Even if Robb wasn't a "king", the eventual King (or Queen) on the Iron Throne could choose to accept Robb, Lord Stark's, will and legitimize Jon as the chosen Stark heir. Unlikely a Lannister ("Baratheon" wink, wink) would do this; Stannis definitely would, and Daenerys or Aegon (Young Griff) might very well. The Starks of Winterfell would be better, and more loyal, than the conniving, flaying Bolton family that's currently squatting in the burned ruin of Winterfell - which they themselves burned. Moreover, Jon Snow would be a better Stark than Sansa Lannister, who's currently being operated by Petyr Baelish. We don't know the status of Rickon, and Bran has gone underground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cruise Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 Haven't we all realized that the laws of inheritance in Westeros are just 'suggestions' ? Anyone can become anything by royal decree, or just general acceptance. I think this is a constant underlying theme within the series. The laws of men basically mean nothing. At the end of the day the law of the sword and the victor reign supreme. If fAegon wins the Iron Throne and calls himself a Blackfyre, it doesn't matter if he truely is or isn't. He will be a Blackfyre from that point on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandru Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 Thanks, Tom Cruise!! I have seen endless screenfuls of arguments on these many succession issues, and while interesting, some bookbased, some based on histories from various European countries, in the end, it all comes down to who has the most swords - or dragons. That said, it would be great to have a Stark back in Winterfell (so long as it wasn't a Baelish ;-) and a reconciliation of the Targaryons and Blackfyres would be welcome, too. Well, I can dream.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell's son Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 2 hours ago, Brandon Baratheon said: It appears to me that Jon Snow will never get Targaryen name even if he is really Rhaegar's son. You are correct. Even if the truth of his biological father being Rhaegar is revealed, he had a chance to take his Dad's name to become lord of Winterfell and refused. Being a bastard defines him. He will never let that go. 2 hours ago, Brandon Baratheon said: In similar example of Boltons, Ramsay was accepted by his father and he was only son. Ramsay needed an heir. that is the only reason why he is willing to tolerate his psychopath son. 2 hours ago, Brandon Baratheon said: But since Rhaegar is dead there is no way for Jon to get rid off being bastard. True 2 hours ago, Brandon Baratheon said: I wonder what would happen to Jon if Rhaegar didn't die in Trident. He would have died soon after or at the latest during the sack of KL to allow the story to work how it was written Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 17 hours ago, Brandon Baratheon said: It appears to me that Jon Snow will never get Targaryen name even if he is really Rhaegar's son. In similar example of Boltons, Ramsay was accepted by his father and he was only son. But since Rhaegar is dead there is no way for Jon to get rid off being bastard. I can't shake off the feeling that the author had something in mind, some sort of a plan, concerning Jon Snow, though. And I don't think it was "It will all amount to nothing anyway, heh". Just a feeling, though. Obviously we can't know what the future books (assuming there are gonna be future books) will bring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn Posted March 28, 2017 Author Share Posted March 28, 2017 1 hour ago, zandru said: Even if Robb wasn't a "king", the eventual King (or Queen) on the Iron Throne could choose to accept Robb, Lord Stark's, will and legitimize Jon as the chosen Stark heir. Unlikely a Lannister ("Baratheon" wink, wink) would do this; Stannis definitely would, and Daenerys or Aegon (Young Griff) might very well. The Starks of Winterfell would be better, and more loyal, than the conniving, flaying Bolton family that's currently squatting in the burned ruin of Winterfell - which they themselves burned. Moreover, Jon Snow would be a better Stark than Sansa Lannister, who's currently being operated by Petyr Baelish. We don't know the status of Rickon, and Bran has gone underground. Jon takes Winterfell as Stark and Tyrion takes Casterly Rock as Lannister. If it is happy ending for our characters why are they Targaryens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 1. Any king or queen can legitimize any bastard. Aegon could legitimize Jon if he finds out about him. And this would in no way endanger any of Aegon's potential children because they'd come before his little brother anyway. 2. Rule 1 is backed up and strengthened when said monarch has dragons. If Dany decides to legitimize half of Westeros as Targaryens (most through descent from Aegon IV), nobody will stop her. For that matter she can legitimize Hot Pie as a Manderly, Podrick as a Lannister, and anybody else as anything else. Any complaints can be met with a one-word answer: dracarys. 3. The parents of a bastard being alive or dead has no bearing on legitimization issues. Jon can be legitimized even if he has no living relatives closer than a 538th cousin, 1052 times removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sea Dragon Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 I don't think anyone will believe he is legitimate. He does not even look like a Targagryen. And why would people believe a bastard? He is ok, I am not saying he is bad, but I just don't know if people will believe him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 10 minutes ago, Sea Dragon said: I don't think anyone will believe he is legitimate. He does not even look like a Targagryen. And why would people believe a bastard? He is ok, I am not saying he is bad, but I just don't know if people will believe him. He probably won't be the one claiming to be a Targaryen. It will come from someone else like Howland Reed. If it's known that Lyanna is his mother, it will not take much to convince people that Rhaegar was his father (especially since that's the most likely scenario). He can BE legitimized. Any bastard can be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 4 hours ago, Brandon Baratheon said: Jon takes Winterfell as Stark and Tyrion takes Casterly Rock as Lannister. If it is happy ending for our characters why are they Targaryens? Why are who Targaryens? Jon may be half-Targaryen but unless it's proven that Rhaegar legally married Lyanna, he is not a Targaryen. He'd be Jon Waters, or still Jon Snow, unless or until someone legitimized him as a Targaryen. Robb's will doesn't do that as Robb thought he was a Stark. Tyrion is in the same boat if, and it's a big if, his father was actually Aerys Targaryen. It's far more likely that Tyrion is 100% Lannister and all the potential hints about him maybe having dragonblood are to throw everyone off and get them thinking he's part-Targ so that when he shows up riding a dragon it won't be a huge surprise. We're not going to get a happy ending. We're getting a bittersweet one. And one of the themes of the story is that blood doesn't matter as much as actions and individual choices do. The heroes of the series will be the ones who step up and lead the rest of humanity to a victory against the genocidal ice zombies bearing down on them, and that has nothing to do with what someone's name is or what their pedigree shows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Loras The Gay Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 He'll most likely be legitimized by Stannins or by the Robb's will. If all the forces in the north are really conspiring and the theory about the resurrection turn out to be true, they'll proclaim him the warden of the north and probably bend the knee to Daenerys or Aegon or whoever wins the Iron throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandru Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said: And one of the themes of the story is that blood doesn't matter as much as actions and individual choices do. The heroes of the series will be the ones who step up and lead the rest of humanity to a victory against the genocidal ice zombies bearing down on them, and that has nothing to do with what someone's name is or what their pedigree shows. Hear, hear! And, frankly, I can't imagine anyone like Petyr Baelish doing this. He doesn't go in for personal jeopardy, even for the Big Payoff... Didn't mean to change the subject. Let's get back to Jon (Stark) (Targaryon) Snow, who does have the hero instinct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn Posted March 29, 2017 Author Share Posted March 29, 2017 7 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said: 1. Any king or queen can legitimize any bastard. Aegon could legitimize Jon if he finds out about him. And this would in no way endanger any of Aegon's potential children because they'd come before his little brother anyway. 2. Rule 1 is backed up and strengthened when said monarch has dragons. If Dany decides to legitimize half of Westeros as Targaryens (most through descent from Aegon IV), nobody will stop her. For that matter she can legitimize Hot Pie as a Manderly, Podrick as a Lannister, and anybody else as anything else. Any complaints can be met with a one-word answer: dracarys. 3. The parents of a bastard being alive or dead has no bearing on legitimization issues. Jon can be legitimized even if he has no living relatives closer than a 538th cousin, 1052 times removed. But why should Daenerys believe that he is really Rhaegar's son? Is there any proof? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 5 hours ago, Brandon Baratheon said: But why should Daenerys believe that he is really Rhaegar's son? Is there any proof? As the George says when asked questions like this one, "keep reading". But I bet there is. The R+L=J will be officially revealed. To go with the revelation, there will be some sort of proof. The only true question is, will it be an incontrovertible one, or will it leave room for doubt (in-universe, I mean). My money's on the latter, it's ASOIAF after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolbeard the Exile Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 18 hours ago, Brandon Baratheon said: It appears to me that Jon Snow will never get Targaryen name even if he is really Rhaegar's son. In similar example of Boltons, Ramsay was accepted by his father and he was only son. But since Rhaegar is dead there is no way for Jon to get rid off being bastard. I wonder what would happen to Jon if Rhaegar didn't die in Trident. I think that is a strong hint that he is no Targaryen. No one would listen to him or a cranogman or a little boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotting sea cow Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 17 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said: Robb Stark was no king. How so? He was proclaimed king by his own bannermen, who despite Robb's death, most are still loyal and moving to uproot the Boltons and reinstall the Starks. If they learned about Robb's will, most will respect it. This would be cause of dissent (not conflict), just to become moot in the face of the Others threat. We cannot at this stage even rule out that Jon will be proclaimed King in the North. 11 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said: And one of the themes of the story is that blood doesn't matter as much as actions and individual choices do. The heroes of the series will be the ones who step up and lead the rest of humanity to a victory against the genocidal ice zombies bearing down on them, and that has nothing to do with what someone's name is or what their pedigree shows. quoted for truth. Legitimization and such, is among of the least interesting issues in the series. 5 hours ago, Brandon Baratheon said: But why should Daenerys believe that he is really Rhaegar's son? Is there any proof? Dany will believe in dragon's instincts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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