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Who makes the laws and who punishes crimes?


Sea Dragon

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You guys are always really great. Thank you.

I have another question about who makes the laws and who executes the laws? I think the king makes the laws, but maybe it is the religious faith of seven? And who decides who executes the law breakers? The king again? I know we saw a trial for Tyrion, but that seemed forced and I think I remember other people not having a trial but being found guilty of crimes. I know we currently have Cersei on trial for things like deicide (god killing) and incest, and treason. Any others? 

Is it the maesters? 

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Depends on where you are and who does or doesn't have dragons. Also on who committed the crime. The smallfolk don't get to judge and sentence the nobility, only other nobles can do that. 

The first level is the Faith of the Seven. There are certain things that they say are sins, and thus are wrong, and forbidden. But some of those can probably be forgiven and taken care of with some kind of penance or offering to the gods. Then you have whatever laws the king and his council set. Then there are regional laws as well.

Some laws are dealt with at the local level, such as Night's Watch deserters being killed by the nearest Lord, or returned to the Wall for punishment. Others are more serious and require either a trial (due to a lack of the certain knowledge that the person is guilty) or handing over to higher authorities. 

Jorah Mormont is a good example. He was Lord of Bear Island and was caught selling poachers as slaves, and slaving is illegal in Westeros. There was no doubt he was guilty and Ned passed sentence, as was his right and responsibility as Lord Paramount of the North. If Jorah had been conspiring to depose Robert, then Ned would have had to take him to King's Landing where he'd be tried for treason.

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2 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Depends on where you are and who does or doesn't have dragons. Also on who committed the crime. The smallfolk don't get to judge and sentence the nobility, only other nobles can do that. 

The first level is the Faith of the Seven. There are certain things that they say are sins, and thus are wrong, and forbidden. But some of those can probably be forgiven and taken care of with some kind of penance or offering to the gods. Then you have whatever laws the king and his council set. Then there are regional laws as well.

Some laws are dealt with at the local level, such as Night's Watch deserters being killed by the nearest Lord, or returned to the Wall for punishment. Others are more serious and require either a trial (due to a lack of the certain knowledge that the person is guilty) or handing over to higher authorities. 

Jorah Mormont is a good example. He was Lord of Bear Island and was caught selling poachers as slaves, and slaving is illegal in Westeros. There was no doubt he was guilty and Ned passed sentence, as was his right and responsibility as Lord Paramount of the North. If Jorah had been conspiring to depose Robert, then Ned would have had to take him to King's Landing where he'd be tried for treason.

I actually wondered why Ned did not take him/send him to the king since that was more of a crime on a "national" level.

Good points on the rest, too.

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4 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I actually wondered why Ned did not take him/send him to the king since that was more of a crime on a "national" level.

Good points on the rest, too.

Because that law could be administered easily at the regional level without bothering the king. I figure somewhere someone has a list of which crimes merit being dealt with by the king, and everything else is handled by people lower on the food chain.

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8 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Because that law could be administered easily at the regional level without bothering the king. I figure somewhere someone has a list of which crimes merit being dealt with by the king, and everything else is handled by people lower on the food chain.

Fair enough. Thanks :thumbsup:

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Well I would imagine that on a national level, the Master of Laws works with the king to create laws and uphold them within the capital but also kingdom-wide. That was Renly's job at one point (which I always found weird since Stannis would have fit that office a lot better). But each Lord Paramount is responsible for most laws within their borders. Then each lord beneath them, etc. 

As for the Faith, I doubt they had much authority before Cersei armed them. I'm sure if the local village septon preached about some ungodly whore being incestuous or something and the people hated her enough, she'd be hanged from a tree by a few villagers. But the laws of the village would be put in place and enforced by the lord that owns it. So all formal complaints would go to him. 

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6 minutes ago, Renly's Banana said:

Well I would imagine that on a national level, the Master of Laws works with the king to create laws and uphold them within the capital but also kingdom-wide. That was Renly's job at one point (which I always found weird since Stannis would have fit that office a lot better). But each Lord Paramount is responsible for most laws within their borders. Then each lord beneath them, etc. 

As for the Faith, I doubt they had much authority before Cersei armed them. I'm sure if the local village septon preached about some ungodly whore being incestuous or something and the people hated her enough, she'd be hanged from a tree by a few villagers. But the laws of the village would be put in place and enforced by the lord that owns it. So all formal complaints would go to him. 

An ogre law? 

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It's medieval; nobody makes laws and anyone bigger than you enforces them.

Thr concept of law is somewhat anachronistic in these books, as it didn't exist until  the administrative state. The books evoke the period immediately prior to that advent.

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2 hours ago, Renly's Banana said:

Well I would imagine that on a national level, the Master of Laws works with the king to create laws and uphold them within the capital but also kingdom-wide. That was Renly's job at one point (which I always found weird since Stannis would have fit that office a lot better). 

Actually, i think people would have panicked with Stannis as Master of Laws. He would have wanted to enforce them rather brutally.

Such law that there is comes from the throne. Lords are expected to judge any crime within thier borders, such as the case of Chett, who gets sent to the Wall by Walder Rivers, acting on behalf of Lord Frey. Crimes by Lords or disputes by Lords should go to thier leige lord, Lord Paramount, or the king. Depending on the severity of the crime, things might get kicked upstairs, or might be resolved through force of arms (war).

 

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Apart from the royal laws, that are few and usually hard fought - like the first night, the laws are made by the noble lords (note - lords, not landed knights or similiar) who rule said piece of land. They have the right of pit and gallows - that is, authority to kill people and toss them into dungeons. That mean they also decide which laws that gives certain punishments. If they think a man can be killed because he has been seen naked in the sept or that a woman should be put naked into the stocks because she has been unfaithful or that children not bowing to their betters should lose a hand, than that will indeed be the sectance. Noone can tell them that they can´t do that. That they are not allowed to. Not even bordering nobles nor your overlord. Read Dunk and Egg again - Baelor Breakspear make a direct point of this. Lord Ashford is the ruler of that land, regardless of the presence of the Targaryens and the Tyrells. 

However, few lords make their laws on a whim and ignore the will of more powerful lords. Most people also tend to see themselves as just and fair. So most likely, the laws are based on the tradition in the area, as well as religious laws that the lord choose to uphold. But he doesn´t have to. A lord possesses complete sovereignty over their land in feudalism. And it is only "recently" that the crown (thankfully) has been trying to do anything about this.

 

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