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How Rhaenyra's children could of been Laenor's.


Abdallah

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So while listening to Ian Glenn's reading of The Rogue Prince, the bias report tends to depict Rhaenyra as being unfaithful. There could be a whole series on every biased aspect of the Rogue Prince, which might happen as the release of the winds of winter will only happen when pigs turn into Dragons and the Kardashians become famous for an actual talent (relaxing I'm joking). But looking at Rhaenyra and Laenor's family line, it's not impossible for her children to be Laenor's. You see While Rhaenyra was Targaryen, her mother was an Arryn. The Brown Nose and Brown Eyes could be passed down from her mother. I do not think Rhaenyra disliked her husband, as even the biased Rogue Prince does not ever state the two fighting. perhaps Rhaenyra was more understanding of Laenor's sexuality. or perhaps the Rogue Prince was lying about his preferences.  

For those better at Biology than me, is this possible?

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I wouldn't worry to much about biology since magic is a stronger influence on genes than biology in Westeros.

But to that there's a not a single record in our text, beyond Rhaenyra, that has children, all three of them, not share the look in some fashion with either of their parents. Some children are a mix and some draw after the mother or the father, but its only this possible scenario that they don't take after any of their parents, and I personally find that rather unbelievable. That some grandmother's genes would be so dominant but make a leap straight over Rhaenyra don't make much sense to me.

So in short, if Rhaenyra's gathermother's genes were so dominanet as so push aside Viserys' genes and the genes of both of Laenor's parents, why would not Rhaenyra herself take after her mother with these ultra-dominant genes but these genes would give in to Viserys' Valyrian look?

EDITED: And do note that it don't really matter whose genes the children carries. Rhaenyra does not become less of Viserys' heir because of whom she had her children with.

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Definitely possible though unlikely that it's ever going to be confirmed as nobody is alive to tell the tale. I definitely got the impression that Rhaenyra and Laenor never even slept together as neither seemed to be bothered with the other ones public affairs and they stayed friendly toward each other throughout their marriage. Thus, my money is on Strong being the father. 

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Biologically I think this is possible. However, odds are that Harwin Breakbones was the father, though I agree that Laenor and Rhaenyra seemed to get on. The most likely scenario I can think off is that they had a mutual agreement with each other that Rhaenyra could sleep with Harwin and Laenor could have relationships with whoever he wanted; regardless of gender; while in public claiming Jace, Luke and Joff to be his. So while it is biologically possible for them to be Laenor's; not that the Westerosi would ever think of this; it's more likely that they were Strong's. 

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Do we know the Arryns had brown eyes and hair and pug noses? I don't remember any descriptions of them but I had a vague idea they looked Andal, tall and fair-haired. Aemma Arryn was half-Targaryen, so those brown genes must be pretty freaky to skip Rhaenyra's generation yet manifest in all (and only) her "Velaryon" children.

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We don't know whether Harwin Strong even had brown hair, brown eyes, and a pug nose (if we did, the case would be clear). Could be, but if it is the case it is never spelled out because the man is never described in detail. We just know that he was the strongest man of the Seven Kingdoms.

It is not only that Rhaenyra has a long line of Arryn ancestors (and thus also all the various non-Arryn ancestors her grandfather Rodrik Arryn is descended from) Laenor Velaryon also does not have only Valyrian ancestors. Corlys Velaryon and Rhaenys Targaryen have Valyria looks, but Corlys' mother is unknown (as are Corlys' Velaryon ancestors who may not all be Valyrian) and Rhaenys' mother was Jocelyn Baratheon who descended both from the Durrandons through the female line as well as whoever the hell was Orys Baratheon's mother).

In that sense there is certainly a chance that some strange atavism led to Jace, Luke, and Joff look the way they looked despite the fact that they were Laenor Velaryon's children.

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there may also be as small possibility that the Maester lied. Possibly Because maesters are sexist and would be against women ruling. History is written by the maesters and they write what they want, according to their agenda

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On 3/29/2017 at 5:00 PM, maudisdottir said:

Do we know the Arryns had brown eyes and hair and pug noses? I don't remember any descriptions of them but I had a vague idea they looked Andal, tall and fair-haired. Aemma Arryn was half-Targaryen, so those brown genes must be pretty freaky to skip Rhaenyra's generation yet manifest in all (and only) her "Velaryon" children.

We don't know. We know the more recent Arryns are fair-haired. Not sure about eye color. Which is why it's getting to be widely believed that little Robert Arryn is actually Littlefinger's son.

It's not unheard of for things to skip generations or for a child to look like a grandparent or other ancestor. I'm a carbon copy of one grandmother, and one of my sisters is a dead ringer for a great-great aunt we never even met. Genetics are far from simple things, even without adding magic blood in.

The fact that it showed up only in Rhaenyra's children would not be remarkable given that all of her full siblings died, and her half-siblings all had a different mother. Had any of her brothers lived, they might have shown those traits, or their children might have.

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9 hours ago, shockwave said:

there may also be as small possibility that the Maester lied. Possibly Because maesters are sexist and would be against women ruling. History is written by the maesters and they write what they want, according to their agenda

I think in universe, Maester Glydayn had a bias towards Aegon II. Such a bias could easily explain why the suggestion of Strong being the father gets paraded around so much. Out of universe, its simply a central conflict to the story

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I dunno. I think the text is pretty obvious about it. Possible maester bias aside, everything's clearly laid out for you to deduce. Leonor's gayness is not even disputable. And the fact her three supposed sons with him look absolutely nothing like a Targaryen, while her kids with Daemon DO, is very telling. 

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1 hour ago, Renly's Banana said:

I dunno. I think the text is pretty obvious about it. Possible maester bias aside, everything's clearly laid out for you to deduce. Leonor's gayness is not even disputable. And the fact her three supposed sons with him look absolutely nothing like a Targaryen, while her kids with Daemon DO, is very telling. 

Haven't read TPATQ (it's up next) or TRP yet but...isn't it possible that Laenor could have been bi? And even if not, he would not have been the first gay man to have children with a woman.

Good point about Daemon, but Daemon's parents were both Targs. Do we know how many non-Valyrians married into House Velaryon in the past? Cause those genes will pop up even generations later.

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3 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

We don't know. We know the more recent Arryns are fair-haired. Not sure about eye color. Which is why it's getting to be widely believed that little Robert Arryn is actually Littlefinger's son.

It's not unheard of for things to skip generations or for a child to look like a grandparent or other ancestor. I'm a carbon copy of one grandmother, and one of my sisters is a dead ringer for a great-great aunt we never even met. Genetics are far from simple things, even without adding magic blood in.

The fact that it showed up only in Rhaenyra's children would not be remarkable given that all of her full siblings died, and her half-siblings all had a different mother. Had any of her brothers lived, they might have shown those traits, or their children might have.

I hope you won't mind if I join in for a comment.

I find that its unsatisfactory to say that Rhaenyra got brown haired genes for her mother because in total she supposedly had five living children with two men and both of these men were people bearing a Valyrian look. Yet in the case of Laenor's supposed children, all three of them are brown haired and pugged nose. While with both living children to Daemon, both of them bearing a Valyrian look. To me it just seems to divide itself to neat to think that it was only genetic chance at large. If One of Laernor's sons had been born with Valyrian features and one of Daemon's with brown hair and a pug nose then the matter would be settled, but they were not.

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I thought GRRM made it as clear as could have short of outright confirmation. Laenor didn't father any of Rhaenyra's children. Here are a couple of paragraphs from TRP which might help.

Ser Vaemond Velaryon, protested that the inheritance by rights should pass to him … on the grounds that Rhaenyra’s sons were bastards sired by Harwin Strong. The princess was not slow in answering this charge. She dispatched Prince Daemon to seize Ser Vaemond, had his head removed, and fed his carcass to her dragon.
Even this did not end the matter, however. Ser Vaemond’s younger brothers fled to King’s Landing with his wife and sons, there to cry for justice and place their claims before the king and queen. King Viserys had grown extremely fat and red of face, and scarce had the strength to mount the steps to the Iron Throne. His Grace heard them out in a stony silence, then ordered their tongues removed, every one. “You were warned,” he declared, as they were being dragged away. “I will hear no more of these lies.”
Yet as he was descending, His Grace stumbled and reached out to right himself, and sliced his left hand open to the bone on a jagged blade protruding from the throne. Though Grand Maester Mellos washed the cut out with boiled wine and bound up the hand with strips of linen soaked in healing ointments, fever soon followed, and many feared the king might die. Only the arrival of Princess Rhaenyra from Dragonstone turned the tide, for with her came her own healer, Maester Gerardys, who acted swiftly to remove two fingers from His Grace’s hand to save his life.

Remember the saying about what it means when you rip a man's tongue out? You're not proving him a liar... Then, in case that hint was too subtle, GRRM almost descends into slapstick humor. "I will hear no more of these lies." ::cuts hand on throne:: ::almost dies:: ::loses two fingers from cut:: C'mon people.

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Using genetics, the odds are astronomically in favor of the first 3 kids not being Laenors.  Rhaenys Aryn blood is irrelevant to this.  Two Valyrian looking people produce 3 non Valyrian looking kids, then the same Valyrian looking mother and a different Valyrian looking father produce 2 Valyrian looking kids, while technically possible it is so far fetched that it is beyond the point of reason to think they were Laenors kids. 

Just think if two blonde people somehow produced 3 brunette children...  In our world that literally cannot happen, while things are different in ASOIAF, I don't think they are that different.

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9 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Haven't read TPATQ (it's up next) or TRP yet but...isn't it possible that Laenor could have been bi? And even if not, he would not have been the first gay man to have children with a woman.

I'd go with TRP first and then TPatQ. TRP is the prelude to the Dance, after all.

There is talk (from Mushroom) that there were some threesomes involving Rhaenyra and Laenor, although I don't remember whether Harwin Strong or one of Laenor's lovers supposedly joined them, but I think it was the latter.

There are also rumors that Rhaenyra and Laena may have had a thing for each other, considering that they grew very close and often visited each other after Daemon and Laena had settled on Dragonstone. Rhaenyra also pretty quickly betrothed her two eldest sons to Laena's twin girls. She could also have tried to secure Helaena for Jacaerys. That could have helped establish a peace between the two factions.

9 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Good point about Daemon, but Daemon's parents were both Targs. Do we know how many non-Valyrians married into House Velaryon in the past? Cause those genes will pop up even generations later.

As I've said above, no. And we do know that Laenor is descended not only from Corlys' Velaryon ancestors but also (through Jocelyn Baratheon) from all the Baratheon and Durrandon ancestors. Valyrians predominate in his heritage, but there not as many incestuous ancestors among those than there are among others.

5 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Remember the saying about what it means when you rip a man's tongue out? You're not proving him a liar... Then, in case that hint was too subtle, GRRM almost descends into slapstick humor. "I will hear no more of these lies." ::cuts hand on throne:: ::almost dies:: ::loses two fingers from cut:: C'mon people.

Sure, there are strong (pun intended) hints in that direction. Even more so considering that Rhaenyra's first husband was originally supposed to be Lord Lyonel Strong himself, making her sons Strongs in every aspect. However, that's not how it turned out.

But those do not conclusively prove something. The idea that the Iron Throne is rejecting people (like Rhaenyra, Aerys II, or Joffrey later because they are *unworthy*) or that it has some sort of innate power of judgment (killing Maegor) seems to be superstition to me. Just as the idea that a dragon bonding with a Targaryen child *proves* that this child is not a bastard. The rumors that Prince Aenys was a bastard (very likely true, actually) died after he bonded with Quicksilver and began to grow stronger. And the rumors about Rhaenyra's sons also grew fainter after they were given dragon eggs, those eggs hatched, and the dragons thrived and grew stronger every day. Strangely, the fact that the dragon egg of young Prince Viserys - who was clearly Daemon and Rhaenyra's trueborn son - never hatched was seen as a bad omen.

Historically the question of the parentage of Rhaenyra's elder sons remains a mystery as long as we have no good description of any of the Strongs, especially Ser Harwin. If that guy was indeed brown-haired, brown-eyed, and pug-nosed the case is pretty clear. And I'd even consider Larys Strong or Lord Lyonel having brown hair or brown eyes pretty strong evidence.

But while it is not clear that this is the case. And if turned out that the Strongs (or only Harwin) were all red-haired and green-eyed, fair-haired and blue-eyed, or some other combination that doesn't fit the three boys then this would get much more complex.

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The most possible scenario is that Rhaenyra's children were fathered by Breakbones.But:

  • The Arryn looks are unknown 
    Spoiler

    In Alayne I, Winds of Winter, Harry Hardyng and Jon Arryn are mentoned to have a mop of sandy blond hair, pale blue eyes, an aquiline nose but Robert Arryn has brown hair.

     

  • Her children could have taken the looks of an unknown ancestor who married into house Velaryon/Arryn/Baratheon.
  • Spoiler

    In Rogue prince, "Septon Eustace says they shared a bed no more than a dozen times. Mushroom concurs, but adds that Qarl Correy oft shared that bed as well; it aroused the princess to watch the men disporting with each other, he tells us, and from time to time the two would include her in their pleasures. " In such occasion she could have children with Laenor.

     

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Personally (and I know most people will think this is crackpot), I think the entire point of Rhaenyra's children being bastards is to provide us with a giant clue that dragon-riding/hatching genes are X chromosome-linked, meaning (among other things) they are not passed from fathers to sons.

First off, the children are clearly not Laenor's. I think we can be as sure of that as we are of just about anything in asoiaf, since they don't look like Laenor or Rhaenyra. And then we have this quote from The Rogue Prince:

Whatever the truth of these allegations, there was never any doubt that King Viserys still meant for his daughter to follow him upon the Iron Throne, and her sons to follow her in turn. By royal decree, each of the Velaryon boys was presented with a dragon’s egg whilst in the cradle. Those who doubted the paternity of Rhaenyra’s sons whispered that the eggs would never hatch, but the birth in turn of three young dragons gave the lie to their words. The hatchlings were named Vermax, Arrax, and Tyraxes.

So Archmaester Gyldayn states that the hatching of the dragons proved that Laenor was the father. I assume 99% of readers disagree with Gyldayn. Obviously having a Targaryen mother would be sufficient. Genes, unlike patriarchal Westeros, aren't sexist.

But that's when I would say, WAIT A SECOND! Some genes are sexist. We have X chromosomes and Y chromosomes, and certain genes are chromosome specific. For example, hemophelia and Barth syndrome (Septon Barth anyone?) are both X chromosome-linked genetic disorders. So long story short, if PJ is right and Rhaenyra has dragon-riding genes in both her X chromosomes, she would pass the genes along to all of her sons, and the identity of their father is ironically irrelevant.

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5 hours ago, Endymion I Targaryen said:

The most possible scenario is that Rhaenyra's children were fathered by Breakbones.But:

  • The Arryn looks are unknown 
      Reveal hidden contents

    In Alayne I, Winds of Winter, Harry Hardyng and Jon Arryn are mentoned to have a mop of sandy blond hair, pale blue eyes, an aquiline nose but Robert Arryn has brown hair.

  • Her children could have taken the looks of an unknown ancestor who married into house Velaryon/Arryn/Baratheon.
  •   Reveal hidden contents

    In Rogue prince, "Septon Eustace says they shared a bed no more than a dozen times. Mushroom concurs, but adds that Qarl Correy oft shared that bed as well; it aroused the princess to watch the men disporting with each other, he tells us, and from time to time the two would include her in their pleasures. " In such occasion she could have children with Laenor.

     

We have to keep in mind that the Arryn branch founded by Rodrik Arryn and Daella Targaryen seems to have died out with Lady Jeyne Arryn. Rodrik and his ancestors may not have been such prototypical Andals as Jon Arryn and his immediate ancestors.

33 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Personally (and I know most people will think this is crackpot), I think the entire point of Rhaenyra's children being bastards is to provide us with a giant clue that dragon-riding/hatching genes are X chromosome-linked, meaning (among other things) they are not passed from fathers to sons.

First off, the children are clearly not Laenor's. I think we can be as sure of that as we are of just about anything in asoiaf, since they don't look like Laenor or Rhaenyra. And then we have this quote from The Rogue Prince:

Whatever the truth of these allegations, there was never any doubt that King Viserys still meant for his daughter to follow him upon the Iron Throne, and her sons to follow her in turn. By royal decree, each of the Velaryon boys was presented with a dragon’s egg whilst in the cradle. Those who doubted the paternity of Rhaenyra’s sons whispered that the eggs would never hatch, but the birth in turn of three young dragons gave the lie to their words. The hatchlings were named Vermax, Arrax, and Tyraxes.

So Archmaester Gyldayn states that the hatching of the dragons proved that Laenor was the father. I assume 99% of readers disagree with Gyldayn. Obviously having a Targaryen mother would be sufficient. Genes, unlike patriarchal Westeros, aren't sexist.

But that's when I would say, WAIT A SECOND! Some genes are sexist. We have X chromosomes and Y chromosomes, and certain genes are chromosome specific. For example, hemophelia and Barth syndrome (Septon Barth anyone?) are both X chromosome-linked genetic disorders. So long story short, if PJ is right and Rhaenyra has dragon-riding genes in both her X chromosomes, she would pass the genes along to all of her sons, and the identity of their father is ironically irrelevant.

That makes little sense because Daenerys and all of Daeron II's descendants had no female line Targaryen ancestors.

If the dragon-bonding genes were only passed down through the female line Dany shouldn't have been able to bond with and mount Drogon.

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18 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

I hope you won't mind if I join in for a comment.

I find that its unsatisfactory to say that Rhaenyra got brown haired genes for her mother because in total she supposedly had five living children with two men and both of these men were people bearing a Valyrian look. Yet in the case of Laenor's supposed children, all three of them are brown haired and pugged nose. While with both living children to Daemon, both of them bearing a Valyrian look. To me it just seems to divide itself to neat to think that it was only genetic chance at large. If One of Laernor's sons had been born with Valyrian features and one of Daemon's with brown hair and a pug nose then the matter would be settled, but they were not.

Not at all.

Any non-Valyrians in Laenor's ancestral background have to be considered too, but we don't have a detailed family tree for him. What we'd be looking at here would likely be double-recessives that have to come from both the mother and the father.

Clearly Daemon would have no such recessive genes, having been entirely Valyrian in his own genes. Laenor we don't know about.

Yes it's the most likely case that he did not father Rhaenyra's older children, but we can't rule that out entirely as a possibility.

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd go with TRP first and then TPatQ. TRP is the prelude to the Dance, after all.

There is talk (from Mushroom) that there were some threesomes involving Rhaenyra and Laenor, although I don't remember whether Harwin Strong or one of Laenor's lovers supposedly joined them, but I think it was the latter.

There are also rumors that Rhaenyra and Laena may have had a thing for each other, considering that they grew very close and often visited each other after Daemon and Laena had settled on Dragonstone. Rhaenyra also pretty quickly betrothed her two eldest sons to Laena's twin girls. She could also have tried to secure Helaena for Jacaerys. That could have helped establish a peace between the two factions.

As I've said above, no. And we do know that Laenor is descended not only from Corlys' Velaryon ancestors but also (through Jocelyn Baratheon) from all the Baratheon and Durrandon ancestors. Valyrians predominate in his heritage, but there not as many incestuous ancestors among those than there are among others.

<snip

Thank you for the recommendation, but as I don't have a copy of Rogues (nor does my library), I'll be reading TPATQ first because I do have Dangerous Women.

The threesomes are an interesting idea, as that provides for the possibility that Laenor at least might have slept with his wife (and Harwin). But I don't see that any possible relationship between Rhaenyra and Laena has any bearing on this. Laena didn't father any of the children.

We don't know every single ancestor that Laenor had. And Orys Baratheon was most markedly lacking in Valyrian looks, so far as we know. 

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