Jump to content

How Rhaenyra's children could of been Laenor's.


Abdallah

Recommended Posts

Just now, maudisdottir said:

The problem with all of these out-there theories is - how is the average reader supposed to get all this? Why is George making his stories so complicated, if only a few people are ever going to pick up on it?

If the average reader (not the minority who frequent forums) did start musing on whether dragon riding was a trait inherited through the mothers, they would only need to do the most cursory research to discover that the dragon riders weren't just coming through the female line; at which point you'd stop your research because there goes that theory. Does George really expect us to then start making up supposed bloodlines for minor characters on the off chance that our original theory turns out to be true? No, we move on. Well, most of us do.

I don't think the average reader is supposed to figure out everything that's going on. Even in a lot of his short stories, I don't think average readers would necessarily figure out what's going on. I see what your saying, but I don't think it's a "problem" with the theory. GRRM has not written a story for the average reader to figure out, in my opinion. And just to back it up with an example from asoiaf, take the murder of Jon Arryn. You can figure out just by reading AGOT that Lysa murdered him. The clues are there, but average readers did not figure it out, because the clues are subtle and GRRM is super clever.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Let me go full conspiracy for one sec. I think the Bloodstone Emperor was Azor Ahai and fought the Others in Westeros with a dragon at Battle Isle during the Long Night. I think everything was frozen to right about that latitude based on the description of the Rhoyne being frozen all the way down to where it is joined by the Selhoru during the LN. I think the clumsy zombie army was funneled by natural ice formations into marching across Battle Isle in a manner similar to the 300 Spartans fighting the battle of Thermopylae. They would have marched into Essos but were stopped there. It is also very close to Starfall, I'm thinking not a coincidence. And I think the Sword of the Morning is supposed to be someone with a dragon-X gene so he can ride a dragon when the time comes to fight the Others again.

Well, that isn't full conspiracy mode but rather full fan fiction mode.

There is no reason to believe the Bloodstone Emperor was Azor Ahai. In fact, any theory including the Bloodstone Emperor in any theory about stuff in Westeros makes no sense. The guy is a figure from ancient Yi Tish legend. We have no reason to believe he even existed.

In addition, this idea that the Great Empire of the Dawn had dragons is not very well founded, either. There may have been dragonriders before the dragonlords but it seems that nobody used them to build an empire. And there is more than ample evidence that not everything that's possible is actually being done by the people who could do it. Especially if it comes with a rather steep price (as the whole blood of the dragon thing apparently is if we look at the trouble many Targaryens had conceiving healthy children) and goes against the moral code prevalent in a culture. The latter we see strongly in Varamyr's Prologue. Haggon is a powerful man but his morals and culture prevent him from testing the true extent of his power, or to actually use it to dominate others the way he could. Varamyr has less scruples, and Bran is too young to have developed any.

If there were Children or First Men or other ancient people who figured how to bond with dragons they did not go down that road as far as the Valyrians later did, nor did they ever decide to use dragons to build empires.

There isn't even any reason to believe there was a single Azor Ahai in light of the fact that this guy has as many names as he does.

The best explanation is that the people in the many ancient cultures of Essos desperately searched for a way to explain both the Long Night itself as well as its sudden end. Whoever was a great hero/leader among those cultures at that particular time would have been credited (or credited himself) with resolving the predicament, especially if there were actually trying to appease the gods (say, by a lot of blood sacrifices or other things).

Now, this doesn't mean that some visions and prophecies the magically inclined people in Essos had/made did not correctly refer to what had transpired in distant Westeros, but it is very unlikely that whatever they wrote down or told their peers would have been interpreted correctly. After all, those people wouldn't have been in Westeros and the darkness and cold was existing in Essos as much as in Westeros (although to a smaller degree).

Battle Island clearly is a very interesting and foreboding place and it might be that it turns out that some battles was fought there during the Long Night. But it is also possible that this was a place where the ancient Ghiscari and Valyrians and the Children/First Men clashed in the Dawn Age or the Age of Heroes.

I tossed around the idea that the Daynes and the Hightowers both might be of non-First Men ancestry (at least originally) because both Starfall and the Hightower rise on a small island off the shores of Westeros, just as the citadel of Dragonstone does. And we know the Children and (original) First Men did not build any ships.

But even if this is the case it is very unlikely that these bloodlines would actually have retained the looks and magics that came with Valyrian blood (or similar blood) after thousands of years. After all, we have reason to believe that the Valyrians knew they had to marry their own to preserve both their looks (most likely less significant) and the magical quality of their blood.

Now, if the Daynes or Hightowers had such a 'special ancestry', being very distant cousins of the Targaryens since they are all related to the very first dragonlords somehow, it would certainly possible for George to make a man like Darkstar a dragonrider if he so chooses. But there are also hints the Daynes, too, might have gotten a drop of dragonlord blood through the Targaryens. If Maekar Targaryen could marry Dyanna Dayne then a Lord of Starfall sure as hell could also have married one of the Targaryen-Hightower girls.

Quote

The Valyrian incest custom would keep the genes within the family, which was super important for Valyrians for political reasons, obviously. 

We actually don't know if politics figured all that much into that. The saying goes that the blood of the dragon must remain pure. That is of a different quality than 'powerful people better marry amongst their own'. Especially considering that the early Valyrians wouldn't have been all that powerful, dragons or not.

Quote

It's likely, if the Daynes retained their ancient knowledge about genetics and the Sword of the Morning, that they would have made a concerted effort to retain the dragon gene through strategic marriages, if not going full-blown incest. And this may have also served to preserve their Valyrian appearance.

Well, nothing points in that direction as of yet. And again, only one Dayne - Darkstar - has features that can be described as Valyrian. Edric and Ashara don't qualify as such and Yandel does not describe any of the ancient Daynes of Starfall as having quasi-Valyrian features. We don't even know how Ser Arthur Dayne looked like.

Quote

And logistically, I always thought it may be possible to test for dragon genes with sickness. Dany notably states that she doesn't remember ever getting a common illness like a cold. That's insane, and I think it would be possible to conduct a crude test on all newborn Daynes to see if they got the gene or not, then plan marriages accordingly. And Ashara had purple eyes, and Edric has big blue eyes "so dark that they looked almost purple".

A lot of Targaryen dragonriders (and potential dragonriders) died of sickness. Aenys I was sickly his entire life, as was Jaehaerys II. Aerys I and Aegon III died of some illnesses (the latter of consumption). Septa Maegelle succumbed to greyscale, Daeron II, Valarr, and Matarys to the Great Spring Sickness.

Dany may be special, but then she, personally, is special, not the entire Targaryen line.

Quote

I would like to see hard evidence that George would not put this kind of genetics stuff in the story, otherwise I'm going to continue considering it the most likely answer. He has written a number of stories with sci-fi style genetics in them, I don't see why he can't be doing it here too.

He certainly could. But he has said that his genetics have basically nothing to do with real word stuff with the whole Baratheon problem. The whole rule that Baratheon black always prevails over other hair colors is confirmed to be wrong by either Princess Rhaenys or her mother, Jocelyn Baratheon since Rhaenys did have Valyrian features.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

8 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I don't think the average reader is supposed to figure out everything that's going on. Even in a lot of his short stories, I don't think average readers would necessarily figure out what's going on. I see what your saying, but I don't think it's a "problem" with the theory. GRRM has not written a story for the average reader to figure out, in my opinion. And just to back it up with an example from asoiaf, take the murder of Jon Arryn. You can figure out just by reading AGOT that Lysa murdered him. The clues are there, but average readers did not figure it out, because the clues are subtle and GRRM is super clever.

But for a lot of these sub-theories, there ARE no clues. That's when speculation gets kind of pointless. For the majority of them, the only evidence is "it might happen, and there's nothing specifically to say that it can't happen" totally disregarding the leaps in logic required, not to mention all the contradictions in the actual text, and often George's own quoted words. I'm not talking about this particular theory, just in general.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, that isn't full conspiracy mode but rather full fan fiction mode.

There is no reason to believe the Bloodstone Emperor was Azor Ahai. In fact, any theory including the Bloodstone Emperor in any theory about stuff in Westeros makes no sense. The guy is a figure from ancient Yi Tish legend. We have no reason to believe he even existed.

In addition, this idea that the Great Empire of the Dawn had dragons is not very well founded, either. There may have been dragonriders before the dragonlords but it seems that nobody used them to build an empire. And there is more than ample evidence that not everything that's possible is actually being done by the people who could do it. Especially if it comes with a rather steep price (as the whole blood of the dragon thing apparently is if we look at the trouble many Targaryens had conceiving healthy children) and goes against the moral code prevalent in a culture. The latter we see strongly in Varamyr's Prologue. Haggon is a powerful man but his morals and culture prevent him from testing the true extent of his power, or to actually use it to dominate others the way he could. Varamyr has less scruples, and Bran is too young to have developed any.

If there were Children or First Men or other ancient people who figured how to bond with dragons they did not go down that road as far as the Valyrians later did, nor did they ever decide to use dragons to build empires.

There isn't even any reason to believe there was a single Azor Ahai in light of the fact that this guy has as many names as he does.

The best explanation is that the people in the many ancient cultures of Essos desperately searched for a way to explain both the Long Night itself as well as its sudden end. Whoever was a great hero/leader among those cultures at that particular time would have been credited (or credited himself) with resolving the predicament, especially if there were actually trying to appease the gods (say, by a lot of blood sacrifices or other things).

Now, this doesn't mean that some visions and prophecies the magically inclined people in Essos had/made did not correctly refer to what had transpired in distant Westeros, but it is very unlikely that whatever they wrote down or told their peers would have been interpreted correctly. After all, those people wouldn't have been in Westeros and the darkness and cold was existing in Essos as much as in Westeros (although to a smaller degree).

Battle Island clearly is a very interesting and foreboding place and it might be that it turns out that some battles was fought there during the Long Night. But it is also possible that this was a place where the ancient Ghiscari and Valyrians and the Children/First Men clashed in the Dawn Age or the Age of Heroes.

I tossed around the idea that the Daynes and the Hightowers both might be of non-First Men ancestry (at least originally) because both Starfall and the Hightower rise on a small island off the shores of Westeros, just as the citadel of Dragonstone does. And we know the Children and (original) First Men did not build any ships.

But even if this is the case it is very unlikely that these bloodlines would actually have retained the looks and magics that came with Valyrian blood (or similar blood) after thousands of years. After all, we have reason to believe that the Valyrians knew they had to marry their own to preserve both their looks (most likely less significant) and the magical quality of their blood.

Now, if the Daynes or Hightowers had such a 'special ancestry', being very distant cousins of the Targaryens since they are all related to the very first dragonlords somehow, it would certainly possible for George to make a man like Darkstar a dragonrider if he so chooses. But there are also hints the Daynes, too, might have gotten a drop of dragonlord blood through the Targaryens. If Maekar Targaryen could marry Dyanna Dayne then a Lord of Starfall sure as hell could also have married one of the Targaryen-Hightower girls.

We actually don't know if politics figured all that much into that. The saying goes that the blood of the dragon must remain pure. That is of a different quality than 'powerful people better marry amongst their own'. Especially considering that the early Valyrians wouldn't have been all that powerful, dragons or not.

Well, nothing points in that direction as of yet. And again, only one Dayne - Darkstar - has features that can be described as Valyrian. Edric and Ashara don't qualify as such and Yandel does not describe any of the ancient Daynes of Starfall as having quasi-Valyrian features. We don't even know how Ser Arthur Dayne looked like.

A lot of Targaryen dragonriders (and potential dragonriders) died of sickness. Aenys I was sickly his entire life, as was Jaehaerys II. Aerys I and Aegon III died of some illnesses (the latter of consumption). Septa Maegelle succumbed to greyscale, Daeron II, Valarr, and Matarys to the Great Spring Sickness.

Dany may be special, but then she, personally, is special, not the entire Targaryen line.

He certainly could. But he has said that his genetics have basically nothing to do with real word stuff with the whole Baratheon problem. The whole rule that Baratheon black always prevails over other hair colors is confirmed to be wrong by either Princess Rhaenys or her mother, Jocelyn Baratheon since Rhaenys did have Valyrian features.

I wholeheartedly disagree that my theory is fanfic. Am I wrong about aspects of it? Almost certainly. Am I wrong about the major concepts? It's possible. Could you consider it crackpot? I wouldn't take offense if you did. But it's not fanfic. Nothing I believe to be a likely answer was pulled out of thin air. It is all based on clues in the text. I'm not going to bother defending all my crackpottery here. You made a lot of good points, but I think we do have one major clue for Azor Ahai being involved in the Long Night in Westeros: Sam finds a book that says the Last Hero fought with a blade of dragonsteel. How or why would anyone believe he had a blade of dragonsteel, unless he also had dragons? I think it's more likely that, rather than come up with a legend to explain the "sudden ending" of the LN, ancient people were well aware of a real dragonlord with a flaming sword who fought demons from far away lands, and they credited him with ending the LN, even though it probably ended naturally and gradually over time. I think he was responsible for the construction of both the Five Forts and Battle Isle and fought invaders on both fronts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I wholeheartedly disagree that my theory is fanfic. Am I wrong about aspects of it? Almost certainly. Am I wrong about the major concepts? It's possible. Could you consider it crackpot? I wouldn't take offense if you did. But it's not fanfic. Nothing I believe to be a likely answer was pulled out of thin air. It is all based on clues in the text. I'm not going to bother defending all my crackpottery here.

Just to be clear. I don't meant fan fiction in a bad way. Just that the 'Bloodstone Emperor is Azor Ahai' is in no way supported by the text.

9 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

You made a lot of good points, but I think we do have one major clue for Azor Ahai being involved in the Long Night in Westeros: Sam finds a book that says the Last Hero fought with a blade of dragonsteel. How or why would anyone believe he had a blade of dragonsteel, unless he also had dragons?

Perhaps because he had a magical blade that burned? In a world where there are dragons - and in distant past there were dragons in Westeros - it is easily imaginable that people would refer to a blade doing that as 'dragonsteel'.

That is no contemporary account, though. There was no iron or steel in use in Westeros during the Age of Heroes as far as we know. I'm inclined to believe that if there was such a sword it was a bronze sword created with the same spells the Valyrians later used for their swords. And if the dragons were a vital part of the creation of Valyrian steel then a dragon could also have played a role in the creation of that blade.

It could be Dawn. The idea that it is the original Lightbringer - if there ever was such a sword - is pretty convincing. After all, Dawn seems to be much, much older than the Valyrian steel swords in Westeros.

9 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I think it's more likely that, rather than come up with a legend to explain the "sudden ending" of the LN, ancient people were well aware of a real dragonlord with a flaming sword who fought demons from far away lands, and they credited him with ending the LN, even though it probably ended naturally and gradually over time. I think he was responsible for the construction of both the Five Forts and Battle Isle and fought invaders on both fronts.

Information on the Five Forts is pretty bad. We don't know for sure that it really resembled fused stone and the like, and they might not be as large as the stories make them to be.

Battle Island and the foundations there actually seem to go time to go back before the Long Night considering that the origins of Oldtown itself are unknown (and there is talk about the Ghiscari coming to Oldtown for trade).

And Yin Tar, Hyrkoon the Hero, Eldric Shadowchaser, Azor Ahai all seem to be different names, not just for one guy but for different guys. The Hyrkoon chap is likely to have founded the Patrimony of Hyrkoon, and the people there seem to have been pretty much into fire magics and blood sacrifices. I doubt that Hyrkoon would have done much more in however long his lifespan was.

The other problematic thing is the idea that a guy from Essos doing stuff in Westeros would have gone back there had he survived the fight against the Others. Why not staying there? Surely many people there would have loved him after what he did.

Also keep in mind that the ancient Azor Ahai stories never indicate that this hero did his stuff in the west. Since we now know that the Long Night was bad all over the world those savior figures could have done heroics back in their home countries without ever going to Westeros.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Just to be clear. I don't meant fan fiction in a bad way. Just that the 'Bloodstone Emperor is Azor Ahai' is in no way supported by the text.

Perhaps because he had a magical blade that burned? In a world where there are dragons - and in distant past there were dragons in Westeros - it is easily imaginable that people would refer to a blade doing that as 'dragonsteel'.

That is no contemporary account, though. There was no iron or steel in use in Westeros during the Age of Heroes as far as we know. I'm inclined to believe that if there was such a sword it was a bronze sword created with the same spells the Valyrians later used for their swords. And if the dragons were a vital part of the creation of Valyrian steel then a dragon could also have played a role in the creation of that blade.

It could be Dawn. The idea that it is the original Lightbringer - if there ever was such a sword - is pretty convincing. After all, Dawn seems to be much, much older than the Valyrian steel swords in Westeros.

Information on the Five Forts is pretty bad. We don't know for sure that it really resembled fused stone and the like, and they might not be as large as the stories make them to be.

Battle Island and the foundations there actually seem to go time to go back before the Long Night considering that the origins of Oldtown itself are unknown (and there is talk about the Ghiscari coming to Oldtown for trade).

And Yin Tar, Hyrkoon the Hero, Eldric Shadowchaser, Azor Ahai all seem to be different names, not just for one guy but for different guys. The Hyrkoon chap is likely to have founded the Patrimony of Hyrkoon, and the people there seem to have been pretty much into fire magics and blood sacrifices. I doubt that Hyrkoon would have done much more in however long his lifespan was.

The other problematic thing is the idea that a guy from Essos doing stuff in Westeros would have gone back there had he survived the fight against the Others. Why not staying there? Surely many people there would have loved him after what he did.

Also keep in mind that the ancient Azor Ahai stories never indicate that this hero did his stuff in the west. Since we now know that the Long Night was bad all over the world those savior figures could have done heroics back in their home countries without ever going to Westeros.

I would argue that BSE = AA is actually supported by the text. On a very basic level, the BSE is blamed for causing the LN, and AA is credited with ending it. It would make sense if these 2 figures were actually the same person and the story of the Blood Betrayal is just another version of the Nissa Nissa tale. And yes, generally we lack a ton of context and info for ancient stories, so it's really hard to make sense of it all. Any explanation for events is not going to have a lot of support in the text. But I would like to point out that even though we are told there was no iron or steel, we have the existence of the Iron Born and the iron crown of the Kings of Winter to consider. We definitely have some incomplete info there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I would argue that BSE = AA is actually supported by the text. On a very basic level, the BSE is blamed for causing the LN, and AA is credited with ending it. It would make sense if these 2 figures were actually the same person and the story of the Blood Betrayal is just another version of the Nissa Nissa tale.

But the Nissa Nissa tale isn't a story of a blood betrayal. It is a story of the creation of a magical sword. Nissa Nissa was beloved by Azor Ahai, and the Amethyst Empress was, as far as we know, not beloved by the Bloodstone Emperor (else the man would most likely not have killed her).

The Westerosi tradition also makes no mention of the fact that the Last Hero (he most likely being a person that is, at least partly, grounded in history) caused and ended the Long Night.

And keep in mind that the Yi Tish tradition depicts the Long Night essentially as some sort of punishment by the gods (the Maiden-made-of-Light, possibly the sun, hiding her face and the Lion of the Night, an embodiment of night and darkness, it seems, reacting to the crimes of Bloodstone Emperor and the vice and corruption in his people) rather than it being cause by some ice demons and their zombies.

The Five Forts certainly could have some military purpose but what rumors we have about the lands in the farthest east beyond Yi Ti make it clear that there could be a lot of other demons and monsters out there that have nothing to do with the Others.

6 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

And yes, generally we lack a ton of context and info for ancient stories, so it's really hard to make sense of it all. Any explanation for events is not going to have a lot of support in the text. But I would like to point out that even though we are told there was no iron or steel, we have the existence of the Iron Born and the iron crown of the Kings of Winter to consider. We definitely have some incomplete info there.

Well, the Starks certainly could have had multiple crowns throughout their long reign. The Targaryens lost quite a few of theirs during their reign, and they ruled barely three centuries.

One imagines that the original crown of the Starks when they were just petty kings among many Northern king was much more modest than the crown they more after they had conquered the entire North.

And whether the very ancient Ironborn already had iron weapons is also an open question. It could, of course, be possible that some people had already discovered iron and learned how to forge steel before the Long Night and this knowledge was then lost when so many people died during the Long Night.

Retroactively putting titles and props back into very ancient tales is very common in ancient texts (just check on Abraham having camels in Genesis, long before people had domesticated camels). George makes use of that, too, when ancient stories from the Reach put knights and tourneys in stories from the Dawn Age and the Age of Heroes. The account Sam read about the Last Hero and his dragonsteel is most likely pretty old but not old enough to be actually a contemporary account from the Long Night. And in that sense it would not be reliable in every details.

Keep in mind that the First Men apparently only left runes on trees and rocks. They did not wrote chronicles and the like. Whatever book Sam found there would have been written centuries or millennia after the Long Night, at a point where Andals from the southern kingdoms had already joined the NW.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But the Nissa Nissa tale isn't a story of a blood betrayal. It is a story of the creation of a magical sword. Nissa Nissa was beloved by Azor Ahai, and the Amethyst Empress was, as far as we know, not beloved by the Bloodstone Emperor (else the man would most likely not have killed her).

Yes, I am well aware this. There are a bunch of threads discussing this topic, but I'll sumarize my basic thoughts on the issue real quick. Nissa basically has 2 meanings. In English or Hebrew it means "a remembered loved one". It is also the name given by many Native Americans to the Spirit of Grandmother Moon. I suspect that both meanings apply to asoiaf. So if Nissa Nissa almost literally could be translated to mean "Moon Moon", the big elephant in the room is the Qartheen myth of how dragons were created. The moon was an egg. Once there were 2 moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the sun's heat and a million dragons came out and drank its fire.

I think it makes much more sense if these 3 seemingly separate ancient tales of AA, BSE, and the Qartheen myth are actually 3 different versions of the same event in history that went something like this: The rulers of the GEOTD were incestuous proto-Valyrians similar to Targaryens. For some reason (I'm betting on prophetic visions from the Old Gods myself), BSE/AA performed some super-powerful blood magic, sacrificing his sister/wife in a dark ceremony. The moon exploded in the sky, raining down thousands of meteors (the "dragons") and covering the atmosphere with debris causing the LN. The BSE then started worshiping a black stone that feel from the sky. I'm betting the black stone somehow allowed BSE to create the first dragons (maybe it's radioactive or something and causes rampant genetic mutations, idk), which would explain why the Qartheen myth associates the destruction of the moon with the birth of dragons. The LN caused chaos everywhere, but BSE/AA was able to use his dragon(s) to prevent the total destruction of humanity. After a few years, the dust cloud settled, and the LN ended.

As for the blade of dragonsteel. I do think it's likely Dawn and probably actually came from the "falling star" of Starfall. But I also think the account Sam finds is misleading. I don't believe the LH and AA were the same person. I think the LH and Night's King were the same person but the legend got twisted around to make the COTF look like heroes instead of villains. And the LH has been conflated with AA in some accounts, since obviously it was AA and not NK who fought against the Others. Obviously that's convoluted as heck, but that's the only explanation that makes total sense to me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Yes, I am well aware this. There are a bunch of threads discussing this topic, but I'll sumarize my basic thoughts on the issue real quick. Nissa basically has 2 meanings. In English or Hebrew it means "a remembered loved one". It is also the name given by many Native Americans to the Spirit of Grandmother Moon. I suspect that both meanings apply to asoiaf. So if Nissa Nissa almost literally could be translated to mean "Moon Moon", the big elephant in the room is the Qartheen myth of how dragons were created. The moon was an egg. Once there were 2 moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the sun's heat and a million dragons came out and drank its fire.

I don't think the moon story is anything but a story. Its purpose is to give Dany a hint that stone dragon eggs could hatch if being brought close to a lot of heat (the sun in the story, Drogo's pyre in AGoT).

Drogo is basically also very much remembered in Drogon, the mount Dany is riding right now (just as she rode Drogo back in the day).

22 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I think it makes much more sense if these 3 seemingly separate ancient tales of AA, BSE, and the Qartheen myth are actually 3 different versions of the same event in history that went something like this: The rulers of the GEOTD were incestuous proto-Valyrians similar to Targaryens.

There is no reason to believe any of this, especially not the latter. If the gemstone emperors had been dragonriders that would not have been forgotten by Yi Tish lore. And neither would be the fact that the Great Empire of the Dawn had been forged with the help of dragons.

This is very much a mythological story similar to the ancient Chinese myths about the Three Sovereigns and Fire Emperors. There is no reason to believe the Yi Tish people ever had dragons or dragonriders amongst their number nor is there any reason to believe Asshai or the Shadowlands were actually part of the Great Empire of the Dawn. Only the Patrimony of Hyrkoon and the lands of the Jogos Nhai and Leng are confirmed to have been supposedly part of that. And the fact that Leng'i culture is so different from Yi Tish culture (the Old Ones stuff not to mention the fact that the native Leng'i are essentially a different race) makes it very unlikely that they were united once, before the Long Night.

22 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

For some reason (I'm betting on prophetic visions from the Old Gods myself), BSE/AA performed some super-powerful blood magic, sacrificing his sister/wife in a dark ceremony.

There is no reason to believe the Bloodstone Emperor was married to the Amethyst Empress (assuming any of them even existed).

22 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

The moon exploded in the sky, raining down thousands of meteors (the "dragons") and covering the atmosphere with debris causing the LN. The BSE then started worshiping a black stone that feel from the sky. I'm betting the black stone somehow allowed BSE to create the first dragons (maybe it's radioactive or something and causes rampant genetic mutations, idk), which would explain why the Qartheen myth associates the destruction of the moon with the birth of dragons. The LN caused chaos everywhere, but BSE/AA was able to use his dragon(s) to prevent the total destruction of humanity. After a few years, the dust cloud settled, and the LN ended.

That whole idea would completely disconnect the causation of the Long Night from events occurring in Westeros (which is what this story is all about), making the probability that this is the case almost zero. In addition, there is no reason to believe that dragons were created. Once they supposedly lived everywhere, and nothing indicates that they only first appeared around the time of the Long Night.

In addition, Yi Tish tradition says the Pearl Emperor made the Five Forts. If they are fused black dragon stone it is rather odd that this would have been done in a time where there were no dragons anywhere. The Pearl Emperor lived before the Amethyst Empress and the Bloodstone Emperor, after all.

And the stone the Bloodstone Emperor allegedly worshiped is The Shining Trapezohedron. The Church of Starry Wisdom comes from the same story. Those are references to Lovecraft stories, not important plot elements in and of themselves.

22 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

As for the blade of dragonsteel. I do think it's likely Dawn and probably actually came from the "falling star" of Starfall. But I also think the account Sam finds is misleading. I don't believe the LH and AA were the same person. I think the LH and Night's King were the same person but the legend got twisted around to make the COTF look like heroes instead of villains. And the LH has been conflated with AA in some accounts, since obviously it was AA and not NK who fought against the Others. Obviously that's convoluted as heck, but that's the only explanation that makes total sense to me.

Not to me.

I don't think the Last Hero was Azor Ahai, either, because Ahor Ahai (and the guys bearing the other names) clearly are very much rooted in various Essosi cultures and myths, and there is no reason to believe that stories about the Last Hero from Westeros spread as far as Asshai and Yi Ti, especially not back then. And if they did, they would have to be as garbled and twisted as the stories about Casterly Rock are that are told in Asshai (that the lion lord lives in a huge house made of gold), and the stories about Azor Ahai coming back from Essos to Westeros would be twisted even further.

And at the same time no accurate information on the Long Night survived in Westeros itself? Not very likely.

We simply do not yet know who the Last Hero was or what he did.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think the moon story is anything but a story. Its purpose is to give Dany a hint that stone dragon eggs could hatch if being brought close to a lot of heat (the sun in the story, Drogo's pyre in AGoT).

Drogo is basically also very much remembered in Drogon, the mount Dany is riding right now (just as she rode Drogo back in the day).

There is no reason to believe any of this, especially not the latter. If the gemstone emperors had been dragonriders that would not have been forgotten by Yi Tish lore. And neither would be the fact that the Great Empire of the Dawn had been forged with the help of dragons.

This is very much a mythological story similar to the ancient Chinese myths about the Three Sovereigns and Fire Emperors. There is no reason to believe the Yi Tish people ever had dragons or dragonriders amongst their number nor is there any reason to believe Asshai or the Shadowlands were actually part of the Great Empire of the Dawn. Only the Patrimony of Hyrkoon and the lands of the Jogos Nhai and Leng are confirmed to have been supposedly part of that. And the fact that Leng'i culture is so different from Yi Tish culture (the Old Ones stuff not to mention the fact that the native Leng'i are essentially a different race) makes it very unlikely that they were united once, before the Long Night.

There is no reason to believe the Bloodstone Emperor was married to the Amethyst Empress (assuming any of them even existed).

That whole idea would completely disconnect the causation of the Long Night from events occurring in Westeros (which is what this story is all about), making the probability that this is the case almost zero. In addition, there is no reason to believe that dragons were created. Once they supposedly lived everywhere, and nothing indicates that they only first appeared around the time of the Long Night.

In addition, Yi Tish tradition says the Pearl Emperor made the Five Forts. If they are fused black dragon stone it is rather odd that this would have been done in a time where there were no dragons anywhere. The Pearl Emperor lived before the Amethyst Empress and the Bloodstone Emperor, after all.

And the stone the Bloodstone Emperor allegedly worshiped is The Shining Trapezohedron. The Church of Starry Wisdom comes from the same story. Those are references to Lovecraft stories, not important plot elements in and of themselves.

Not to me.

I don't think the Last Hero was Azor Ahai, either, because Ahor Ahai (and the guys bearing the other names) clearly are very much rooted in various Essosi cultures and myths, and there is no reason to believe that stories about the Last Hero from Westeros spread as far as Asshai and Yi Ti, especially not back then. And if they did, they would have to be as garbled and twisted as the stories about Casterly Rock are that are told in Asshai (that the lion lord lives in a huge house made of gold), and the stories about Azor Ahai coming back from Essos to Westeros would be twisted even further.

And at the same time no accurate information on the Long Night survived in Westeros itself? Not very likely.

We simply do not yet know who the Last Hero was or what he did.

You keep saying "there is no reason to believe" for all my beliefs. Yet... I believe them. I am 99.9% sure I hold these beliefs because of reasons, and not because I am delusional. Obviously you don't buy into what I'm saying here. That's fine. Most people don't, and I am not trying to hijack a thread to convince you, and you are probably not going to change my views by telling me things I am well aware of, no offense. You think the Qartheen myth is just a story, I think there really were 2 moons in the sky once. I don't think we are going to come to an agreement ;) 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

You keep saying "there is no reason to believe" for all my beliefs. Yet... I believe them. I am 99.9% sure I hold these beliefs because of reasons, and not because I am delusional. Obviously you don't buy into what I'm saying here. That's fine. Most people don't, and I am not trying to hijack a thread to convince you, and you are probably not going to change my views by telling me things I am well aware of, no offense. You think the Qartheen myth is just a story, I think there really were 2 moons in the sky once. I don't think we are going to come to an agreement ;) 

When I say 'there is no reason to believe...' I refer to stuff we can be both in agreement about, like texts we have both read. We don't talk about private fantasies of mine like that I'm actually Lord Varys (I certainly could have reasons to believe that and be as certain about that as you are about your theories) or that the entire story is about Tommen rather than any of the POVs.

Even if there once where two moons in the sky there is no textual evidence that this is in any way connected to any of the gemstone emperors.

I'd be the first to consider textual evidence supporting any of this stuff. But as far as I know you don't have any.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

When I say 'there is no reason to believe...' I refer to stuff we can be both in agreement about, like texts we have both read. We don't talk about private fantasies of mine like that I'm actually Lord Varys (I certainly could have reasons to believe that and be as certain about that as you are about your theories) or that the entire story is about Tommen rather than any of the POVs.

Even if there once where two moons in the sky there is no textual evidence that this is in any way connected to any of the gemstone emperors.

I'd be the first to consider textual evidence supporting any of this stuff. But as far as I know you don't have any.

But you are clearly referring to things we are not in agreement about. And for future reference, I hold no beliefs without textual evidence. Briefly, let me address the current relevant points:

1) I wasn't saying the gemstone emperors were dragon-riders, just BSE and maybe his descendants. But there is evidence they at least had the right genes to ride dragons. The gemstone emperors were Dany's ancestors. From the HOTU: Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade.

2) Considering the sheer size of Asshai together with its old age and geographic proximity to the known areas of the GEOTD, I think it was likely part of the GEOTD, and was potentially its capital city.

3) According to legend, the BSE usurped his sister, and this "Blood Betrayal" was the cause of the LN. According to a different legend, right around the same time as that happening, AA sacrificed his wife Nissa Nissa aka Moon Moon to create a flaming sword and fought to end the LN. And according to the Qartheen, there were once 2 moons in the sky, but one of them exploded and dragons were born. An exploding moon, if true, would cause a Long Night-type event to happen... probably the Long Night. So if the LN was actually caused by an exploding moon, which was in turn caused by the Nissa Nissa sacrifice, then the BSE would be AA and the Amethyst Empress would be Nissa Nissa, and they would have not only been brother and sister, but incestuous rulers just like their descendants the Valyrians. The alleged "usurping" of the throne is perhaps a twisted version of events. And since the Qartheen claim this is when dragons were born, and we have no evidence to suggest dragons existed before the LN, it makes sense if AA sacrificed his wife not just to get a magic sword, but to create dragons.

So there you go, evidence from the text. If you don't want to consider it evidence, well... that's like... your opinion, man... :) 

ETA: More accurately, there is a tiny bit of evidence for dragons existing before the LN, but nothing solid.

Also, I found the quotes that made me suspicious in the first place:

Qartheen myth: Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat.

AA myth: It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

But you are clearly referring to things we are not in agreement about. And for future reference, I hold no beliefs without textual evidence. Briefly, let me address the current relevant points:

1) I wasn't saying the gemstone emperors were dragon-riders, just BSE and maybe his descendants. But there is evidence they at least had the right genes to ride dragons. The gemstone emperors were Dany's ancestors. From the HOTU: Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade.

That quote isn't from the House of the Undying, actually, but from Dany's (prophetic? magical?) fever dream after she lost Rhaego.

And there is no reason to believe those ghosts are the gemstone emperors. It is much more likely that they were simply the Targaryen kings, Daenerys' immediate ancestors. And keep in mind that there are actually purplish-blue variants of jade, tourmaline, and opal. Dany is seeming ghosts in kingly gowns with Valyrian hair and eyes in various shades of violet.

Quote

2) Considering the sheer size of Asshai together with its old age and geographic proximity to the known areas of the GEOTD, I think it was likely part of the GEOTD, and was potentially its capital city.

I don't. To think that I'd need textual evidence connecting Asshai to the Great Empire of the Dawn. And considering that there is a very strong hint that the Great Empire is essentially just a precursor to the Golden Empire of Yi Ti (or a mythical fiction of the Yi Tish), with the color emperors being the immediate successors of the gemstone emperors. Why should they move their capital from Asshai to the lands that would become Yi Ti?

And why does nobody connect Asshai to the Great Empire?

Quote

3) According to legend, the BSE usurped his sister, and this "Blood Betrayal" was the cause of the LN.

That is actually not the case. Here is the quote:

Quote

Dominion over mankind then passed to his eldest son, who was known as the Pearl Emperor and ruled for a thousand years. The Jade Emperor, the Tourmaline Emperor, the Onyx Emperor, the Topaz Emperor, and the Opal Emperor followed in turn, each reigning for centuries … yet every reign was shorter and more troubled than the one preceding it, for wild men and baleful beasts pressed at the borders of the Great Empire, lesser kings grew prideful and rebellious, and the common people gave themselves over to avarice, envy, lust, murder, incest, gluttony, and sloth.

That indicates that the Great Empire did indeed have borders on their sides of the Bones, farther to the east and possible the south, making it not unlikely at all that Asshai and the Shadowlands weren't part of it.

Quote

When the daughter of the Opal Emperor succeeded him as the Amethyst Empress, her envious younger brother cast her down and slew her, proclaiming himself the Bloodstone Emperor and beginning a reign of terror. He practiced dark arts, torture, and necromancy, enslaved his people, took a tiger-woman for his bride, feasted on human flesh, and cast down the true gods to worship a black stone that had fallen from the sky. [...]
In the annals of the Further East, it was the Blood Betrayal, as his usurpation is named, that ushered in the age of darkness called the Long Night.

The text said 'ushered in' not 'caused'. 

Quote

Despairing of the evil that had been unleashed on earth, the Maiden-Made-of-Light turned her back upon the world, and the Lion of Night came forth in all his wroth to punish the wickedness of men.

The Blood Betrayal is certainly part of the evil but we learn that vice was already widespread in the people of the empire before the Blood Betrayal.

Quote

How long the darkness endured no man can say, but all agree that it was only when a great warrior—known variously as Hyrkoon the Hero, Azor Ahai, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser—arose to give courage to the race of men and lead the virtuous into battle with his blazing sword Lightbringer that the darkness was put to rout, and light and love returned once more to the world.

Now, does anything indicate that the man who took a tiger-woman for a bride was also the great warrior? No. In fact, the Bloodstone Emperor could long have been dead by the time the Long Night ended (assuming he lived at all).

Quote

According to a different legend, right around the same time as that happening, AA sacrificed his wife Nissa Nissa aka Moon Moon to create a flaming sword and fought to end the LN.

Nothing indicates that the Bloodstone Emperor did love or sacrifice the Amethyst Empress. Instead, it is said he was envious of her, cast her down, and slew her.

Quote

And according to the Qartheen, there were once 2 moons in the sky, but one of them exploded and dragons were born. An exploding moon, if true, would cause a Long Night-type event to happen... probably the Long Night. So if the LN was actually caused by an exploding moon, which was in turn caused by the Nissa Nissa sacrifice, then the BSE would be AA and the Amethyst Empress would be Nissa Nissa, and they would have not only been brother and sister, but incestuous rulers just like their descendants the Valyrians.

There is nothing in the text indicating such a connection. Even if Azor Ahai caused the Long Night by killing Nissa Nissa, there is no reason to believe that they are the Bloodstone Emperor and the Amethyst Empress.

Quote

The alleged "usurping" of the throne is perhaps a twisted version of events.

And perhaps not. Perhaps it is just a story. Or it is an accurate depiction of historical events taking place in early Yi Tish history.

Quote

And since the Qartheen claim this is when dragons were born, and we have no evidence to suggest dragons existed before the LN, it makes sense if AA sacrificed his wife not just to get a magic sword, but to create dragons.

But the story states he killed his wife to forge a sword.

Quote

So there you go, evidence from the text. If you don't want to consider it evidence, well... that's like... your opinion, man... :) 

ETA: More accurately, there is a tiny bit of evidence for dragons existing before the LN, but nothing solid.

We have Nagga's bones and dragon fossils and bones that are apparently found everywhere, including Westeros.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That quote isn't from the House of the Undying, actually, but from Dany's (prophetic? magical?) fever dream after she lost Rhaego.

And there is no reason to believe those ghosts are the gemstone emperors. It is much more likely that they were simply the Targaryen kings, Daenerys' immediate ancestors. And keep in mind that there are actually purplish-blue variants of jade, tourmaline, and opal. Dany is seeming ghosts in kingly gowns with Valyrian hair and eyes in various shades of violet.

I don't. To think that I'd need textual evidence connecting Asshai to the Great Empire of the Dawn. And considering that there is a very strong hint that the Great Empire is essentially just a precursor to the Golden Empire of Yi Ti (or a mythical fiction of the Yi Tish), with the color emperors being the immediate successors of the gemstone emperors. Why should they move their capital from Asshai to the lands that would become Yi Ti?

And why does nobody connect Asshai to the Great Empire?

That is actually not the case. Here is the quote:

That indicates that the Great Empire did indeed have borders on their sides of the Bones, farther to the east and possible the south, making it not unlikely at all that Asshai and the Shadowlands weren't part of it.

The text said 'ushered in' not 'caused'. 

The Blood Betrayal is certainly part of the evil but we learn that vice was already widespread in the people of the empire before the Blood Betrayal.

Now, does anything indicate that the man who took a tiger-woman for a bride was also the great warrior? No. In fact, the Bloodstone Emperor could long have been dead by the time the Long Night ended (assuming he lived at all).

Nothing indicates that the Bloodstone Emperor did love or sacrifice the Amethyst Empress. Instead, it is said he was envious of her, cast her down, and slew her.

There is nothing in the text indicating such a connection. Even if Azor Ahai caused the Long Night by killing Nissa Nissa, there is no reason to believe that they are the Bloodstone Emperor and the Amethyst Empress.

And perhaps not. Perhaps it is just a story. Or it is an accurate depiction of historical events taking place in early Yi Tish history.

But the story states he killed his wife to forge a sword.

We have Nagga's bones and dragon fossils and bones that are apparently found everywhere, including Westeros.

Sorry yes, that quote was from her fever dream, not the HOTU, my mistake. Again, I was already aware of everything you said here. I spend way too much of my time reading and thinking about these books. I am really, really trying to not hijack this thread debating a giant topic with you on which we are probably not going to agree. But you keep using the phrase "there is no reason to believe" when what you really mean is, "In my opinion, there is no good reason to believe that I have read". It's a bit condescending. I understand that there are plenty of conversations on the forum where one person is super knowledgeable and the other person has only read the main series one time and been reading fan theories for a few weeks, but that is not the conversation we are having. You are clearly well-versed in asoiaf knowledge, and I myself have read the main series 5 times and spent a large amount of time debating theories with people. My beliefs are all grounded in the text. You say there is no reason to believe those ghosts are the gemstone emperors, yet that's what I think, specifically because the gemstones named in Dany's vision are the same as 4 of the 7 emperors, and Dany herself is described as having amethyst eyes, implying that she could be the new "Amethyst Empress" aka Nissa Nissa in the story. You are essentially arguing that I am a delusional person, which I wholeheartedly try not to be. ;) 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, if I say there is no reason to believe anything I usually mean there is no good reason to believe it. No reason you could cite to convince anybody else who is not already very much on the same page as you are.

The reasons you have seem to be me 'hey, wouldn't it be cool if that was the case' or 'hey, couldn't those two things who are not really connected in any obvious or generic way not be connected despite obvious disappearances to the contrary'.

The idea that George actually included references to the gemstone emperors in Dany's dream he wrote in the early 1990s for AGoT just doesn't make any sense. And the same goes for the idea that Yi Tish history and mythology written for TWoIaF was anything but a nice treat for the fans.

If there was such a hint then the ghosts in the dream would most likely have worn exotic or ancient or lavishly adorned 'imperial garments' (hinting at the fact that these guys were supposed to be emperors rather than mere kings). The reader has a right to expect to understand a work of fiction in its entirety without reading some companion book that would only be published two decades later.

Not to mention that this whole thing is completely unconnected to anything. Why on earth should the ghosts of some Yi Tish emperors care about Daenerys hatching a dragon? The Targaryens tried to do that repeatedly after the dragons died. Why should the second moon give a fig about some Yi Tish emperor killing his sister? Since when can blood sacrifices crush literal moons? There is no precedent for any spell this powerful in this series.

And what if Dany just made up those dream images of the phantom kings (it is a dream and not all elements of it are equally reliable)? Why would she imagine to see some long dead Yi Tish royal rather than imagine her father, grandfather, great-grandfather, etc.?

The Targaryen kings list already existed at that point. But we don't even know whether George thought Yi Ti was an empire at that time.

Speculation that doesn't consider or care about George's writing process just isn't very good.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...