Renly was the true steel

why does everyone blame Renly for Stannis's mistake

225 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

ill never understand why people think Renly "doing his duties as younger brother" would be a good idea the Tyrells would be gone and still reck them on the blackwater and stannis stubborn fool that he is wouldn't even try to reach terms with Robb (which Davos and Cresson urged him to)

meanwhile if Stannis concedes to Renly they can all take kingslanding together beat back Tywin end the war much faster 

Edited by Renly was the true steel

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Stannis abdicating for Renly would not be the first time the next in line didn't get the throne.

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20 minutes ago, Renly was the true steel said:

ill never understand why people think Renly "doing his duties as younger brother" would be a good idea the Tyrells would be gone and still reck them on the blackwater and stannis stubborn fool that he is wouldn't even try to reach terms with Robb (which Davos and Cresson urged him to)

meanwhile if Stannis concedes to Renly they can all take kingslanding together beat back Tywin end the war much faster 

that isn't the story the author wanted. Plain and simple

 

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8 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

that isn't the story the author wanted. Plain and simple

 

i know im asking why so many readers think stannis was in the right here when he was basically risking the lives of thousands for his right to a throne he doesn't even want and doesn't have support to take it

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I like the way ya think, kid. Renly WAS the true steel!! 

He should have killed Stannis and claimed the throne for himself. That's right of conquest, beeyotch. Bobby B style. Stannis was unfit to lead on the grounds that nobody liked him and he's a mentally unhinged sad clown attached to an invasive religious movement. He would have been another unpopular, problematic and harsh king a la Maegor that would do more harm than good. He also would have been fighting a massive Faith uprising along with the Iron Islands and possibly the North. Varys would also slit his throat in his sleep.

BUT ALSO Renly was cute and Stannis smells like doodoo so my argument is solid

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Because he believed he was the Azor ahai, destined to save the world. His ego was boosted 1000 times because Melisandre made him believe this. He'd never concede to a gay youger brother. He wasn't the destined one. He knew he didn't have the men, the fleet or the gold necessary to win the war, but Melisandre made him believe that with her by his side he could do everything. And let's be honest. She made the renly death possible. 

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1 hour ago, Renly was the true steel said:

i know im asking why so many readers think stannis was in the right here when he was basically risking the lives of thousands for his right to a throne he doesn't even want and doesn't have support to take it

There is no right or wrong, just men with power

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40 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

Because he believed he was the Azor ahai, destined to save the world. His ego was boosted 1000 times because Melisandre made him believe this. He'd never concede to a gay youger brother. He wasn't the destined one. He knew he didn't have the men, the fleet or the gold necessary to win the war, but Melisandre made him believe that with her by his side he could do everything. And let's be honest. She made the renly death possible. 

Stannis isn't the first guy to think he's the Messiah only to find out he's just another nut.

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14 minutes ago, Byfort of Corfe said:

Stannis isn't the first guy to think he's the Messiah only to find out he's just another nut.

But the important thing  here is that he belivies it. It doesn't matter if he is or isn't. The fact is he belivies and therefore make his decisions based on this belief.

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37 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

But the important thing  here is that he belivies it. It doesn't matter if he is or isn't. The fact is he belivies and therefore make his decisions based on this belief.

Oh sure, he believes it and Melisandre believes it and that's the tragedy.  The false Messiahs will always believe it.  And therein lies the tragedy.  Stannis would have probably been a horrible King.  He's a fanatic.  He believes in a religion that burns the non-believers.  A Stannis reign wouldn't end well. 

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25 minutes ago, Byfort of Corfe said:

Oh sure, he believes it and Melisandre believes it and that's the tragedy.  The false Messiahs will always believe it.  And therein lies the tragedy.  Stannis would have probably been a horrible King.  He's a fanatic.  He believes in a religion that burns the non-believers.  A Stannis reign wouldn't end well. 

He actually doesn't believe in the religion, only in the results Mel has given him.  He specifies this to Davos.

 

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6 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

He actually doesn't believe in the religion, only in the results Mel has given him.  He specifies this to Davos.

 

Thank you for saying this. I was about to say something myself.

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I think where some of the sympathy for Stannis comes is the fact that he is right. Ceresi's children ARE Jamie's bastards, Renly IS his younger brother. He may be unlikeable and follow a weird religion, but he has always served faithfully, and has never renounced his claim to the throne. Under modern day rules of succession, Stannis would be king.

There's some middle child syndrome at play here as well. He has lived his whole life in Robert's shadow. Now Renly expects Stannis to let him take the throne?

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8 hours ago, Renly was the true steel said:

ill never understand why people think Renly "doing his duties as younger brother" would be a good idea the Tyrells would be gone and still reck them on the blackwater and stannis stubborn fool that he is wouldn't even try to reach terms with Robb (which Davos and Cresson urged him to)

meanwhile if Stannis concedes to Renly they can all take kingslanding together beat back Tywin end the war much faster 

A large part of the people who think that way are just Stannis-fanboys (for some completely unfathomable reason) so in their case at least it's not quite rational.

To them he's the "Truly Just King Who Caredtm" and no matter if he uses black magic to murder his younger brother, deploys sacrifices to further his goals, hints at getting rid of Gilly and her baby because he won't suffer "such abominations" in his presence or starts a bloody and costly war, killing thousands for some uncomfortable chair (while knowing that the Others will be a problem) for them he stays the most awesome and righteous and caring and witty "Truly Just King Who Caredtm"

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1 hour ago, Orphalesion said:

A large part of the people who think that way are just Stannis-fanboys (for some completely unfathomable reason) so in their case at least it's not quite rational.

To them he's the "Truly Just King Who Caredtm" and no matter if he uses black magic to murder his younger brother, deploys sacrifices to further his goals, hints at getting rid of Gilly and her baby because he won't suffer "such abominations" in his presence or starts a bloody and costly war, killing thousands for some uncomfortable chair (while knowing that the Others will be a problem) for them he stays the most awesome and righteous and caring and witty "Truly Just King Who Caredtm"

I totally agree. Among the main characters, Stannis displays probably the highest discrepancy between "what he says" and "what he does", i.e. he's the biggest hypocrite. As you so nicely summarised it, his actions shows that his willing to do to almost anything (no matter how amoral) to become king, yet his disciples fans will insist that he's the most self-sacrificing human being and that he's doing everything out of duty to the realm and its people simply because he says so once or twice. 

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Because Stannis is not in this to "beat Tywin", not only. Stannis wants what he think the law gives him the right to. To allow Renly to become king is no better than allowing Joffrey to be king, despite his bastardry. Neither has the right to be where they are. 

And that "everyone" blame Renly for this because, well Stannis has a point. In Westeros, we see the older son inherit, the older son get everything while the other sons get scraps. So why shouldn´t it be the same in this case? Why make an exception? Because that is what Renly and the Tyrells have done. If anyone should fold, Renly is the likelier candidate. 

And "Reaching terms" in this case mean "Give up your claim and set your ambition lower". But if Stannis refuses to do so, then why not fight to the end? The OP sort of hints that Stannis should be the one to fold, but why? So that Lannisters lose? And Stannis get nothing? So why be "reasonable" if said reason doesn´t give you profits?

And Stannis was been doing pretty well considering his starting positions, so I sort of take this that people in this thread are pissed that Stannis has given problem to "their favorites".

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Posted (edited)

With Renly supporting his elder brother dutifully, the war might not even happen. Eddard Stark was about to declare Stannis king and fails in good part due to his own mistakes and Sansa's loose tongue, but the chance to act is wasted partly because Renly would not fall in line and only move to benefit himself. Stannis' later inflexibility toward Robb would not even matter. Whether the Tyrells would go against a Stannis-Renly-Stark-Tully (Riverlands already under attack) combination is far from obvious. They may dislike it, but such a coalition would have been much more formidable than what they faced in the given story.

(Though of course there would be no story, if we get a Stannis succession, Eddard Stark alive as Hand of King and Arya taking lessons with Syrio Forel, Bran dating Shireen whatever ...)

Edited by black_hart

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Stannis was Robert's heir pure and simple. That is why Robert gave Stannis Dragonstone.

Renly is the villain for his part in the WoFK. And for people mocking Stannis for killing Renly by black magic.....you all have conviently left out the fact that Renly had amassed a huge army which was about to go to war with Stannis with the intent to kill him and usurp his claim. How Renly died is irrelevant.....the man was likeable.....but also a fool and a usurper.

Im not the biggest Stannis fan.....but he gets a lot of disrespect. The King Who Cared? Stannis is the only King to heed the NW's plea for help, and for that act alone he gets my respect. If Renly had followed Stannis, like a dutiful younger brother, the Lannisters would have been crushed in ACOK.

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15 hours ago, Renly was the true steel said:

ill never understand why people think Renly "doing his duties as younger brother" would be a good idea the Tyrells would be gone and still reck them on the blackwater and stannis stubborn fool that he is wouldn't even try to reach terms with Robb (which Davos and Cresson urged him to)

meanwhile if Stannis concedes to Renly they can all take kingslanding together beat back Tywin end the war much faster 

Renly owes Stannis his loyalty. Stannis is his older brother and rightful king. He could still probably marry Margery and gain the Reach for his brother so and the timeline would change slightly so that Stannis takes King's Landing before Tywin can come to the rescue. Stannis is stubborn but he isn't a fool. Im 100% sure he would pardon Robb Stark. 

Meanwhile Stannis can win the war if Renly was loyal.

 

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