why does everyone blame Renly for Stannis's mistake

[Renly's Banana]

5 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

 Do you have any proof about that?

Yeah my proof is the books.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

8 hours ago, Renly's Banana said:

Yeah my proof is the books.

That isn't good enough, the majority of what you claim isn't in the books. Give us quotes.

 

[Minsc]

On 3/31/2017 at 2:00 PM, Batbob45 said:

Renly is known to have zero loyality or love for family. If he was loyal to his family, he would not have died. For those people who think that  Renly  is great, forgot that he was a terrible  person(he starve smallfolks by blocking Roseroad(food supply route), he advocated the murder of pregnant Dany, and he show his true colors when he and LF(a lord more evil than Varys) had a laugh at a joke where Renly mention Shireen(he called her Stannis' ugly daughter) in a joke about Stannis. He also seem to only called Shireen "Stannis' daughter" instead of his(Renly's) niece). He seem to not see her as family.

He stuck with Robert longer than Stannis did.  Renly didn't starve the people of King's Landing instead that was Tywin, Tyrion, Cersei, and Joffrey seeing how they controlled King's Landing and its their duty to feed their people not Renly's duty to feed their people.  While, Stannis tried to capture the young Viserys and infant Dany an action that would have led to their deaths.  Meanwhile, Stannis insults everyone that he encounters if he isn't complaining about them instead.  Through the joke wasn't about Shireen but how Stannis is a prude.

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

Because stannis ate rats and rallied people long enough to survive and he should have inherited his birthright once Robert was gone 

[Batbob45]

On 3/31/2017 at 2:49 PM, UnFit Finlay said:

Says who? He doesn't like Stannis, granted, but he seemed to have no issues with Robert.

Stannis is my favourite character but people tend to forget an important factor about Renly's decision to Crown himself: He didn't know about the Twincest. He fully believed that Joffrey was the rightful heir to the Throne and that he was knowingly committing treason.

With that in mind, do you honestly expect him to go to Stannis and try and convince him to join in? Stannis? The guy who openly admits that he found it difficult to rebel against Aerys, even after Aerys had demanded his brother's head? He had every reason to believe that Stannis would turn him over to the Lannisters just because it was "the right thing to do". Once he realised that Stannis wanted the Throne, it was too late. Renly was already crowned and there was no way to back down, even if he'd wanted to.

And then there's the issue of Stannis actually being King. As much as I like the guy, him losing on the Blackwater was the best thing that could've happened to him, since it made him reevaluate why he actually wanted to be King. Had he taken the Throne without that defeat, he would've been despised and probably deposed pretty quickly, with Renly falling alongside him.

Personally I've never understood why people passionately hate one or the other. I like both the characters and I think both of them had perfectly valid reasons to act as they did, even if it ended in tragedy, which is a common theme throughout the series.

a little offtopic both quick question- do you get your named from David "Fit" Finlay

back on topic

both characters have pro and cons

Renly-

Pro- charismatic and know how to play politics

Con-Shallow and unloving to family

Stannis

Pro-  refusal to bend, booksmart, and  honest about what he think of people

Con-  not charismatic, his refusal to bend most of the time, doesn't know how to spare people's feelings

do you get your named from

[TheThreeEyedCow]

If you haven't guessed already, it's about perspective. There is no one true king/queen. How could there be?

Any time I see an anti Dany/Stannis/Sansa/whoever thread I think to myself, 'how did you manage to miss the entire point of the series?' There are people you can relate to, for a multitude of reasons. And there are people you can't. How often do we tell ourselves that we're in the right and everyone else is mad? How often do we do selfish things and justify it accordingly? The answer is: all of the time. That's what human beings do. Humans are fickle creatures and the one's in asoiaf seem impervious to reason. Except a few. 

No. There is no definitive answer to the Op's question. Who is EVERYONE? The Kingdom is as split as the readership. Ask a man from Lannisport and he may say Stannis is no more than a cuckolded, stuffy old fool. Clayton Suggs would have a different answer entirely. Mel believes he's the Lord of Light. 

A better way to go about it is to ask, 'when is it ok to break the rules/oathes/vows?' It's a broader question, but it's applicable to most of our characters. The IB King's moot. Jon's loyalty to the watch. Dany's marriage to Hizdar. Jorah's banishment. The KG vows. Lyanna and Ned. Tyrion's kinslaying. The red wedding. 

I really like Stannis. That said, I believe Renly would of been a much smoother transition and the realm would of thrived with him. All in all, when I add it up in my head, my belief is that Renly would of bent the rules of succession to such a degree that it would of endangered and destabilized the monarchy especially for his heirs. We're supposed to come away from it understanding what a troublesome and unnecessary thing Monarchy's are. It's suppose to be a simple rule but in practice it's more of an obstacle. 

I suppose the only definitive answer I could give regarding the Baratheon brothers is that neither of them deserve to be king as they were willing to kill their own family to achieve it. 

[Drogonthedread]

To all those who think Renly owes Stannis and should follow stannis..

Where was this brother when renly and Robert were amidst dangers in KL ..

If he had somehow warned his brother and king by doing his duty maybe Robert wouldn't have died in the first place..

Renly never gathered all those army to kill stannis ..he was moving toward KL it was Stannis who actively planned to kill renly and oppose him as we can see from the prologue of Clash of kings..

You can't pledge to someone who has ran away and not answered one mail for more than a year .

[Steel Stag]

I am a Stannis the Mannis fan, but i agree that it would have been a smart idea to support Renly. Westeros would be a much more peaceful place today, if Renly was the King. 

This is the reason why Stannis will never be a good king. He is very much like Eddard Stark in this regard. He is an honourable man that tries to do his duty, but he is unable to make compromises and alliances with other great houses because of that.

Even if Stannis would become the King of Westeros at the end of the story, his reign would not be peaceful.

[Coolbeard the Exile]

45 minutes ago, Steel Stag said:

I am a Stannis the Mannis fan, but i agree that it would have been a smart idea to support Renly. Westeros would be a much more peaceful place today, if Renly was the King. 

This is the reason why Stannis will never be a good king. He is very much like Eddard Stark in this regard. He is an honourable man that tries to do his duty, but he is unable to make compromised and alliances with other great houses because of that.

Even if Stannis would become the King of Westeros at the end of the story, his reign would not be peaceful.

What Stannis should have done was to support Renly and when Renly becomes king he should have assasinated him with shadowbaby. Renly has no heir which makes Stannis king.

[Steel Stag]

Yes that would have been a smart plan. But Stannis would never have supported Renly. In his opinion, he was the rightful King of Westeros and Renly was a traitor.

[ftheking]

On 30.3.2017 at 7:30 PM, The Bastards Giant Friend said:

Was Stannis trying to depose his brother during Roberts 15 year reign?

Neither did Renly, so tie. They still both wanted to be king after Robert's reign.

On 17.4.2017 at 3:20 PM, Steel Stag said:

This is the reason why Stannis will never be a good king. He is very much like Eddard Stark in this regard. He is an honourable man that tries to do his duty, but he is unable to make compromised and alliances with other great houses because of that.

He is very different from Ned though in that Ned is a loving and beloved, decent man. He is actually far more serious about doing what he thinks is right. His moral rules also apply to himself and not just people has can punish. Never would Ned think "Oh, burning people might be helpful to furthering my power now? Hey, new tradition!" Basically Ned is too honorable and Stannis is a power hungry hypocrite. (I don't call him power hungry simply because he wants to be king and AA, but also because of how much he gets off on punishing people even as a lord. It's his defining characteristic. While he himself does whatever benefits him. I mean a person might think black magic murder is a little worse than smuggling in the grand scheme of things.)

[Darkstream]

41 minutes ago, ftheking said:

Neither did Renly, so tie. They still both wanted to be king after Robert's reign.

He is very different from Ned though in that Ned is a loving and beloved, decent man. He is actually far more serious about doing what he thinks is right. His moral rules also apply to himself and not just people has can punish. Never would Ned think "Oh, burning people might be helpful to furthering my power now? Hey, new tradition!" Basically Ned is too honorable and Stannis is a power hungry hypocrite. (I don't call him power hungry simply because he wants to be king and AA, but also because of how much he gets off on punishing people even as a lord. It's his defining characteristic. While he himself does whatever benefits him. I mean a person might think black magic murder is a little worse than smuggling in the grand scheme of things.)

Where do you get that Stannis "gets off on punishing people?" I'd really like to see a quote that would support this accusation.

And Stannis doesn't want to be king, he feels that he is the King. His pursuit to crown himself isn't out of desire, he feels like it is his obligation to fulfill his duty as the rightful King.

[ftheking]

38 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Where do you get that Stannis "gets off on punishing people?"

It is his defining characteristic. It's all Davos has to hold on to to convince himself against all reason that the nutcase who made a lord out of him is an honorable person, deserving of loyalty (because highly grateful and loyal Davos of course really, really wants to believe that): He took part of his fingers after Davos saved him - -- and how insane is that? How hard would a pardon - cause priorities - have been? Then it's also what you get from Stannis fans to proof his honor: He gelds rapists, like Randall Tarly does.  I do agree that it is a positive thing in a way, compared to no punishment at all, but not born out of Stannis and Randall's empathy with victims of any kind - because they proved they have none - so it's probably their desire to punish. Oh, just because they love justice so much? What would be justice for kinslayers as Stannis is and Randall swears he would be if Sam did anything but join the NW? "Justice" only matters when it means other people's misfortune and their own benefit. Very, very different from Ned.

Oh, what a coincidence that justice just so happens to mean that everyone in Westeros has to bend their knee to Stannis. Please.

[Darkstream]

1 hour ago, ftheking said:

It is his defining characteristic. It's all Davos has to hold on to to convince himself against all reason that the nutcase who made a lord out of him is an honorable person, deserving of loyalty (because highly grateful and loyal Davos of course really, really wants to believe that): He took part of his fingers after Davos saved him - -- and how insane is that? How hard would a pardon - cause priorities - have been? Then it's also what you get from Stannis fans to proof his honor: He gelds rapists, like Randall Tarly does.  I do agree that it is a positive thing in a way, compared to no punishment at all, but not born out of Stannis and Randall's empathy with victims of any kind - because they proved they have none - so it's probably their desire to punish. Oh, just because they love justice so much? What would be justice for kinslayers as Stannis is and Randall swears he would be if Sam did anything but join the NW? "Justice" only matters when it means other people's misfortune and their own benefit. Very, very different from Ned.

Just as I already knew, you have no quote to back your accusation. Just a bunch of biased assumptions based on your own dislike of Stannis' methods. Gelding is the accepted, and normal punishment for rapist across the entirety of the Seven Kingdoms, not just limited to Stannis and Randal. As is the same for having your fingers chopped off for theft. 

The good does not cancel out the bad, this is why Stannis chopped off Davos' fingers, as well, the bad does not cancel out the good, thus why after dishing out the punishment for his years of piracy and stealing, Stannis awarded Davos with a lordship. Nothing in the entirety of the text, is there even a hint that Stannis gets off on punishing anyone.

Quote

Oh, what a coincidence that justice just so happens to mean that everyone in Westeros has to bend their knee to Stannis. Please.

Hardly a convincing argument, in fact, not a viable argument at all.

[KarlDanski]

Stannis the Mannis, the Flaming Stag, is the one true king to Westeros. He's got the claim, he's got the knowledge, he's got the iron will, and he isn't influenced by the Lord of Light as much as shown in the TV show where he burns "infidels". If you want to hear a opinion of someone who met all three Baratheons, look up Donal Noye, he's quoted as saying.

"Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he's copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day."

I'm not a huge Stannis fan, I enjoy his character, and support him in disposing of the Boltons (who doesn't? I'm talking to you /r/Dreadfort), but I'm more of a fan for Northern/Ironborn characters, mainly Asha, Victarion, Ned, Robb, Jon etc. Anyways, when you look at Renly, you see a charismatic guy who talks about the good, but what ends up happening is he's not going to do well. His "wife" is the daughter of a very powerful house, and one of his guard is her brother, similar to Cersei and Jaime. Renly talks about changing the realm for the better, and such, but he has no evidence to back it up. His time as the Master of Laws shows he didn't care about changing the realm, but having fun. Having tourney after tourney after tourney when he could of marched for Kings Landing, sacked it, and became king, but he chose to have tourney after tourney, and lift a siege on Storms End, one of the strongest castles in Westeros who was besieged by a paltry force of about 5000 men. His political skills are the same as every political, promises, but no results. Stannis actually gives results, good or bad, he stays with his promises.

[Hodor the Articulate]

1 hour ago, Darkstream said:

Just as I already knew, you have no quote to back your accusation. Just a bunch of biased assumptions based on your own dislike of Stannis' methods. Gelding is the accepted, and normal punishment for rapist across the entirety of the Seven Kingdoms, not just limited to Stannis and Randal. As is the same for having your fingers chopped off for theft.

In fairness, ftheking was not criticising the gelding per se, but that the punishment was not done out of empathy for the victims of rape. While I don't agree that Stannis has a hard-on for punishment, I think ftk has a point wrt Stannis' brand of justice. True justice must be tempered with compassion. That's something Ned gets, but Stannis doesn't.

Also, chopping of a dude's fingers for smuggling, which was done in order to save your life, is pretty nuts. Davos was considered to be reformed at that point. There was no need to punish him for a crime he wasn't going to commit again.

[Darkstream]

51 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

In fairness, ftheking was not criticising the gelding per se, but that the punishment was not done out of empathy for the victims of rape. While I don't agree that Stannis has a hard-on for punishment, I think ftk has a point wrt Stannis' brand of justice. True justice must be tempered with compassion. That's something Ned gets, but Stannis doesn't.

Fair enough, and I would agree with your point. I'm not attempting to defend Stannis' brand of justice, or the comparison to Ned. My issue is with the assertion that he gets off on it, or enjoys it in any way; I think that is a completely unfounded and ridiculous accusation.

Quote

Also, chopping of a dude's fingers for smuggling, which was done in order to save your life, is pretty nuts. Davos was considered to be reformed at that point. There was no need to punish him for a crime he wasn't going to commit again.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the punishment wasn't just for helping Stannis, but for all the crimes Davos had committed in his past. I don't think in Stannis' view, whether he'll commit these crimes again matters. The crime was done, therefore the punishment is due.

[Hodor the Articulate]

11 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Fair enough, and I would agree with your point. I'm not attempting to defend Stannis' brand of justice, or the comparison to Ned. My issue is with the assertion that he gets off on it, or enjoys it in any way; I think that is a completely unfounded and ridiculous accusation.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the punishment wasn't just for helping Stannis, but for all the crimes Davos had committed in his past. I don't think in Stannis' view, whether he'll commit these crimes again matters. The crime was done, therefore the punishment is due.

Yeah, I don't think there's anything to say Stannis enjoys punishing people. The enacting laws part is were he gets his jollies from. It's probably what he thought of to conceive Shireen.

I know Davos' punishment was for his history of smuggling, but it was still a shitty thing to do. Anyone else would have given him a full pardon, if not out of mercy, then to encourage other criminals to reform.

[Darkstream]

15 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Yeah, I don't think there's anything to say Stannis enjoys punishing people. The enacting laws part is were he gets his jollies from. It's probably what he thought of to conceive Shireen.

 Now that I might just believe.

15 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I know Davos' punishment was for his history of smuggling, but it was still a shitty thing to do. Anyone else would have given him a full pardon, if not out of mercy, then to encourage other criminals to reform.

Yeah, you'll get no argument from me there.

[Minsc]

4 hours ago, KarlDanski said:

 Having tourney after tourney after tourney when he could of marched for Kings Landing, sacked it, and became king, but he chose to have tourney after tourney, and lift a siege on Storms End, one of the strongest castles in Westeros who was besieged by a paltry force of about 5000 men.

Why should Renly rush into battle when he could just wait and allow his enemies bleed each other for him at no cost to himself?  Also why should Renly ignore it when one of his enemies appears to have made a mistake?