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why does everyone blame Renly for Stannis's mistake


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7 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Why have you conceded the argument in relation to Dragonstone?

Cersei quite clearly and matter-of-factly tells Tyrion that giving Stannis Dragonstone instead of Storms End was intended as a slight by Robert:

I don't buy @Universal Sword Donor's argument that all Cersei's words about Robert are automatically invalidated because she is a narcissist who notoriously did not like Robert.  Narcissists and psychopaths are quite capable of telling truth in amongst the lies, e.g. Littlefinger's discussions with Sansa as prime example.  The trick is to sift the lies from the truth.  For example, I do think Cersei lied to Jaime about Joffrey overhearing Robert talking about 'mercy killing' children.  However, in the case we're debating, Cersei had no reason at that point to lie to Tyrion about Robert's relationship with his brother -- and who better to understand that relationship than a wife to whom Robert was often brutally honest behind the scenes?  I also don't think USD's assertion that her words run counter -- 'diametrically opposed' -- to what everyone else in the text says about the brothers' relationship is warranted.  The petty animosity between Stannis and Robert was well known.

You don't have to believe that Cersei's words are invalid solely because she's batshit insane with an axe to grind. Look at everything else in the story, read Stannis' self-serving words (which he said before his personality switch in ASOS), and the author's own quotes. Stannis damn well took it as a slight. No one should question that. Just because someone holds an opinion doesn't mean that it's necessarily correct -- see Cersei and assuming Kevan is trying to put the Tyrells on the throne or Ned believing LF will help him.

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5 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

If Stannis is loyal, perceived slights that f*cking enriched him 1000x over shouldn't really diminish that loyalty right? And to be fair, Stannis couldn't have prevented the adultery, but he sure as hell could have told Robert. He wisely gave it over to Arryn, who was then murdered, and then didn't follow up. Sweet job loyal bro!

How am I suppose to counter this argument without being condescending and treating you like a child? If you can't understand - or are unwilling to accept - that allegiances and loyalties can change due to events and circumstances that occur throughout one's life, then there is nothing I can say that will change your mind.

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You're right there is nothing in the text that explicitly says "SE has been held against 14 sieges that lasted almost a year and had defenders eating boots." There's also nothing that says that Aegon the Conqueror didn't have three arms. Some things can be reasonably be extrapolated from canon and semi-canon text. That a pre-eminent stronghold of the SL might undergo a siege or many of significant duration and intensity is hardly a stretch.

And again, you choose to ignore the point of my comments. For arguments sake, let's assume that every two years, there was a year long siege of Storm's End, your argument is STILL irrelevant.

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Could no one have been a competent hand with Robert? That's putting words in my mouth, incorrect words at that. Tywin, for example, would have made a good hand. Ned would have made a better hand than Jon Arryn insofar as we know because he was actually willing to oppose Robert forcefully.  Hell Jaime might have been an ok hand -- for stopping robert, not being actually good at governing -- given their two similar personalities. 

Right, and when Robert ignores Tywin, and does as he pleases, how is that any different than what you posit Robert would do with Stannis? I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm drawing a conclusion based on the words that came out of your mouth. Your argument here is contradicting your argument against Stannis.

Since when is quitting and packing up your bags to head home considered using force? And am I suppose to accept that using force against your King is a trait that makes a good hand?

And Jaimie, so what, now you're claiming that murdering your king in opposition to his ways is being a good hand? How is Jaimie suppose to stop Robert, who you claim would just overule his hand, and do what he wants either way? Put his sword through Robert's back? And that's a very convincing argument, "not being actually good at governing", yet he'd still be a good hand. What?!!!?

5 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

You don't have to believe that Cersei's words are invalid solely because she's batshit insane with an axe to grind. Look at everything else in the story, read Stannis' self-serving words (which he said before his personality switch in ASOS), and the author's own quotes. Stannis damn well took it as a slight. No one should question that. Just because someone holds an opinion doesn't mean that it's necessarily correct -- see Cersei and assuming Kevan is trying to put the Tyrells on the throne or Ned believing LF will help him.

Talk about an axe to grind, your argument is clearly coming from a biased hatred towards Stannis. You make all of these arguments against him, but then discard the same argument in order to continue your argument against him. :rolleyes:

"Just because someone holds an opinion doesn't mean that it's necessarily correct." I'm going to have to say that the opinion you are arguing here is proof of that.

ETA:

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If Stannis is loyal, perceived slights that f*cking enriched him 1000x over shouldn't really diminish that loyalty right? 

You think that Stannis' position was " f*cking enriched 1000x", Stannis doesn't view it that way, his allegiances are going to be determined by his perception, not by yours.

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He wisely gave it over to Arryn, who was then murdered

So he did make an attempt to help his brother, and took his purely speculative concerns to someone he thought might listen, who also was in the best position to do something about it. Interesting.

And clearly an intelligent and necessary decision by him to get out of King's Landing, or he would have suffered the same fate as Jon.

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6 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

 -- see Cersei and assuming Kevan is trying to put the Tyrells on the throne or Ned believing LF will help him.

Both of your examples are a false equivalency. Comparing assumptions regarding secret plots and deliberate deceptions is not the same as knowing a rather unimportant view point of your husband.

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12 hours ago, Darkstream said:

Why can we presume this? Admittedly, it is not clear to me as to the timeline surrounding these events, but I had always presumed that these seats were allotted before the birth of Roberts Jamie's children.

While all off this sounds like a good plan in hindsight, it is purely speculative, and would suggest that Robert had the foresight and aptitude to implement this intricate plan forteen years in advance, and have to account for a multitude of variables and circumstances going his way for it to come to fruition. I just don't buy it, especially of Robert who never had asperations or expectations of becoming the King, and who's only goals where to 'eat, drink, hunt and whore himself to an early grave.' He wasn't interested in the politics of the Kingdom, or securing a kingdom wide alliance; All he cared about was the threat that the Targaryens posed to him, and his petty revenge and desire to exterminate the dragon spawn.

Why would he wait forteen years to implement this betrothal to Sansa? 

Did he know that Renly was gay, and would fall in love with Loras? The only reason that Renly was tight with the Tyrrell's. Also the Tyrell´s goal was for Margery to become Queen, not the Lady of Storms End.

And what do you mean regarding Tywin? Was Robert counting on Tywin just giving CR to a Baratheon, in order to prevent Tyrion from getting it? Why Hadn't this plan been implemented already? Besides, Tywin had made it pretty clear that he didn't intend to let Tyrion have CR, no matter if he was the rightful heir or not.

No Ser, don't buy it; Not one bit.

I apologise for the long post

Most of the information we have about Robert’s character traits come from Ned Stark and Stannis Baratheon, neither of them are good character readers. Their opinion enforces the concept which is highlighted by the Baratheon words ‘Ours is the Fury’. Robert is potrayed as a magnificent warrior, whose quick to let emotions to take hold on him and whose unstoppable when he does so. However, how much truth there is on that?

Let’s start from the tourney at Harrenhal. Rhaegar wins the tournament and he crowns Lyanna as Lady of beauty instead of his wife. Brandon went bonkers about it and yet. Robert simply laughed it off. Soon afterwards Rhaegar kidnaps Lyanna causing a diplomatic incident of epic proportions. Brandon barges in KL with a group of people and yet one name is missing. Robert. Brandon is arrested, Rickard is summoned in KL and both are killed. Yet, even now, Robert doesn’t call his banners. He doesn’t even start the rebellion himself (Jon Arryn did) and he only joins the rebellion because Aerys specifically called for his head.

Time and time again, the idea of an impulsive king is thrashed. Robert resist the urge to return to his ancestral home to relieve the siege, he forgives all those who fought him, he even send his own maester to save Selmy which was in my opinion, a great political move. Selmy’s reputation bordered to the legendary and having him at his side gave legitimacy to his cause.

After the rebellion he pretty much continued the path of reason. He stopped obsessing about his so called revenge until the Targs became a threat (Danny marrying Khal Drogo), he married Cersei, he kept Jamie in the KG which improved his chances of one of his sons inheriting CR and he handled the Greyjoy rebellion brilliantly. An impulsive king would have smashed Balon’s head to the wall. Instead Robert took a page out of Roman elite diplomacy by taking Balon’s heir as ward and transforming him into a Westerosi Lord.

His diplomacy skills were top notch even in GOT. By going to Winterfell, he honoured his friend who was basically rotting in the North (diplomacy speaking) and used those brownie points to convince Ned to take the hand of the king role and allow his daughter Sansa to marry his son. Sansa was probably the most powerful young woman in Westeros at that point. She was the Warden of the North’s daughter, the Warden of the East cousin and the LP of the Riverlands granddaughter. Her marriage to Joffrey (crown prince, the Warden of the West grandson and the LP of the Stormlands nephew) would secure peace throughout Westeros for years to come.

 Please note that he only goes to Winterfell when old Arryn died. Why? Until Jon Arryn was in KL, the three big houses in the North were obliged by blood to relieve a siege in KL. With Jon Arryn dead and Lysa at the Vale, there was no obligation to do so apart from the king’s command, which proved, time and time again, not as effective as it should be  (Greyjoys and Lannisters remained neutral during Robert’s rebellion). Robert knew that if the Targs were able to somehow convince the GC, Dorne and the Reach to fight for them then he would need the Northern Coalition to bail him out. The Reach could easily stop a Lannister relief army while the combined forces of Dorne + GC could overwhelm Renly’s 20k troops. The Northern coalition was the deciding factor between a Targ king and a Baratheon king.

Anyway, time and time again Robert showed great coolness and pragmatism in handling things. On one hand he refused to punish Jamie for assaulting Ned. On the other hand he refused to send an army to rescue the imp when he was kidnapped by Cat. By doing so, he avoided a war between two of the biggest houses in Westeros.

So we can conclude that while Robert was a dunce in understanding women and finances, he was quite good in diplomacy. He certainly wasnt the impulsive short sighted oaf who engaged into petty arguments as described by many GOT Fans.

Now let’s return to Stannis. Robert was not obliged to give his lands and titles to anybody, which means he could have left Renly and Stannis without any lands and totally dependent on him. That’s what common practice across all Westeros. Kevan Lannister was Tywin’s biggest ally and yet he was never given a Lordship. Some second sons end up with a worse deal. For example Benjen ended up joining the NW. In few words, Robert’s offer to Stannis was extremely generous, far more generous that the one offered by most LPs and Kings. So we can put this ‘Robert wanted to slight Stannis’ theory to sleep.

Now let’s focus on the dates. House Baratheon of Dragonstone was formed in 284 AC. That’s quite significant as it was just 2 years after Robert’s rebellion started. Dragonstone was the Targs ancestral home and therefore it held great military and psychology importance. Any Targ, able to re-capture that island would have to be taken seriously. Therefore Robert needed somebody to trust there and whose experienced in resisting sieges and that someone couldn't be Renly who was 7 at the time.

I also seriously doubt that Renly was appointed LP of the Stormlands at 7 years of age. It more realistic to think that he was appointed LP of the Stormlands when he was at age ie between 16-18. Sure Robert might have promised Renly the Stormlands before that but it was within his right as King and LP of the Stormlands to retract his offer.

So in few words, Stannis had roughly 9 years to convince his older brother to give him something better. Robert could have easily done that. Dragonstone was meant for Robert’s heir and once Joffrey was born, Stannis was not his heir anymore. Robert could have argued that Stannis will have to vacate dragonstone offering him the Stormlands instead.  Stannis would probably be overjoyed by that and no one of note would protest to that (Renly was around 10 at the time). So lets have a look what Stannis did between 284 and 293

He got married to a woman who held no political significance. That was extremely irresponsible from Stannis part.

a- First of all, Ryam Florent wasn’t even Lord. If there’s another revolt, the Florents might not even bother joining the Baratheons cause (think of how Walder sided with Robb despite his second son was married to a Lannister).  

b- Secondly the Florents aren’t the Umbers or the Reeds who are happy to serve their LP/Wardens. They claim to have a bigger claim to the Reach then the Tyrells. Surely the Tyrells weren’t happy seeing the King’s heir marrying to one of them especially since they had previously fought against Robert and nearly starved Stannis to death.

That marriage was probably one of the reasons why the Tyrells preferred bending the knee to Joffrey then Stannis and the main reason why Stannis didn’t got the Stormlands. The King simply couldn’t be seen further appeasing/rewarding a rival family of a powerhouse by appointing one of them as Lady of the Stormlands especially since the Tyrells could raise a 100k army against him.

PS: It might also explain (this is highly speculative) why Robert gatecrashed Stannis wedding by fecking someone with an equal claim to Brightwater’s keep as Selyse.  Sure the king couldn’t keep it in his pants. There again, he did attended meetings outside home (ex Winterfell) without fecking people with noble blood did he?

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2 hours ago, devilish said:

I apologise for the long post

Long it is; I've only had the chance to quickly skim through your comments, so I may have more to say when I get the time, however I just wanted to comment on this before I have to run.

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His diplomacy skills were top notch even in GOT. By going to Winterfell, he honoured his friend who was basically rotting in the North (diplomacy speaking) and used those brownie points to convince Ned to take the hand of the king role and allow his daughter Sansa to marry his son. 

Did Robert convince Ned to accept the position, or did he accept it because of Lysa's letter? Ned becoming Robert's Hand was a result of Jon Aryn's murder, which was a result of Robert's negligence and stubborn refusal to participate in any aspect of ruling. His entire small council is corrupt; his wife - fresh off of murdering his hand in order to cover up her cuckolding of him - is plotting to kill him, and place her illegitimate bastard son on his throne; and Robert is clueless and/or dismisive of all of this.

If you want to know the real reason Robert travelled to Winterfell to beg Ned to become his hand, I would direct you to this post by Ravenous Reader.

On 21/04/2017 at 9:35 PM, ravenous reader said:

In the Vale, Robert and Ned established a destructive relationship pattern of Robert as 'alpha' with Ned as 'beta' traipsing after him into every foolhardy venture.  Robert Baratheon was guided by one principle in life -- following his own ease; and reciprocally negating his own dis-ease (and disease) -- which is the principal reason he chose Ned as Hand...Because Ned was a pushover, to the extent Ned was even willing to murder one of his own children because Robert was too pathetic to stand up to Cersei's nagging.  Symbolically 'Lady' was one of his family -- he severely damaged Sansa as a result, all because of the dirty truth he loved Bobby B more than anyone else in the world, including his own children.  Too enmeshed and too unhealthy for an advisor-advisee relationship. Stannis is annoying, but he's free of these emotional entanglements.  He can see clearly in a way few around him can-- because 'love is the death of duty'; and Stannis puts 'duty' ahead of 'love'.  Which is something Ned is incapable of, despite all appearances to the contrary.

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You're attempting to credit Robert with this genius diplomatic move, when in fact he is making a selfish and careless decision; Which is only necessary due to his incompetence, and only works out - temperarily, as this decision resulted in both of them loosing their life - due to chance, and ironically, due to the same tragedy resulting from his incompetence that made the offer to Ned necessary in the first place.

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29 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Long it is; I've only had the chance to quickly skim through your comments, so I may have more to say when I get the time, however I just wanted to comment on this before I have to run.

Did Robert convince Ned to accept the position, or did he accept it because of Lysa's letter? Ned becoming Robert's Hand was a result of Jon Aryn's murder, which was a result of Robert's negligence and stubborn refusal to participate in any aspect of ruling. His entire small council is corrupt; his wife - fresh off of murdering his hand in order to cover up her cuckolding of him - is plotting to kill him, and place her illegitimate bastard son on his throne; and Robert is clueless and/or dismisive of all of this.

If you want to know the real reason Robert travelled to Winterfell to beg Ned to become his hand, I would direct you to this post by Ravenous Reader.

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You're attempting to credit Robert with this genius diplomatic move, when in fact he is making a selfish and careless decision; Which is only necessary due to his incompetence, and only works out - temperarily, as this decision resulted in both of them loosing their life - due to chance, and ironically, due to the same tragedy resulting from his incompetence that made the offer to Ned necessary in the first place.

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Long it is. I've only had the chance to quickly skim through your comments, so I may have more to say when I get the time, however I just wanted to comment on this before I have to run.

Please read it when you’ve got time. I am aware that its ridiculously long so I am more than willing to wait.

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Did Robert convince Ned to accept the position, or did he accept it because of Lysa's letter? Ned becoming Robert's Hand was a result of Jon Aryn's murder, which was a result of Robert's negligence and stubborn refusal to participate in any aspect of ruling. His entire small council is corrupt; his wife is plotting to kill him, and place her illegitimate bastard son on his throne; and Robert is clueless and/or dismisive of all of this.

If you want to know the real reason Robert travelled to Winterfell to beg Ned to become his hand, I would direct you to this post by Ravenous Reader. [/quote]

I am a big fan of Roman and medieval history and politics. I read countless books about it so I know a thing or two about it. The king engaged himself to a taxing trip North to meet his loyal subject and to offer him the most prestigious administrative role in all Westeros. He also took his entire family with him and offered Ned to marry his daughter to the crown prince.

 There’s no way Ned could have said no to both. He might have avoided the HODK role but Robert would return to KL with a Stark who got Tully blood and therefore Arryn blood. That was exactly what Robert came for. If KL is under siege, than Ned’s daughter, Hoster’s grand daughter and Robin’s cousin would have been in danger. These 3 houses are bound by blood to defend her.

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Your attempting to credit Robert with this genius diplomatic move, when in fact he is making a selfish and careless decision; Which is only necessary due to his incompetence, and only works out - temperarily, as this decision resulted in both of them loosing their life - due to chance, and ironically, due to the same tragedy resulting from his incompetence that made the offer to Ned necessary in the first place.

I never said that Robert was a genius. In matter of fact, I stated multiple times that he couldn’t understand women and he was horrible in economics. The former saddled him with 3 illegitimate children.  What I said that Robert was quite decent in diplomatic relations and that can be seen through many decisions taken throughout the rebellion and his reign.  Its remarkable how, the Lord Paramount of the smallest region in Westeros ended up being King.

Ps: May I remind you that if Stannis didn’t resorted to black magic then probably we would still have a Baratheon king sitting on the IT by now.  That would never had happened if Robert didn’t favoured Renly over Stannis. The latter was foolish enough to marry a Florent whose got an equal claim to the Reach as the Tyrells. There’s no way the Tyrell and therefore the Reach as a whole would support a Florent queen especially since they nearly starved her husband, the king to death.

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@Darkstream

 

A-Please read it when you’ve got time. I am aware that its ridiculously long so I am more than willing to wait.

B-I am a big fan of Roman and medieval history and politics. I read countless books about it so I know a thing or two about it. The king engaged himself to a taxing trip North to meet his loyal subject and to offer him the most prestigious administrative role in all Westeros. He also took his entire family with him and offered Ned to marry his daughter to the crown prince.

 There’s no way Ned could have said no to both. He might have avoided the HODK role but Robert would return to KL with a Stark who got Tully blood and therefore Arryn blood. That was exactly what Robert came for. If KL is under siege, than Ned’s daughter, Hoster’s grand daughter and Robin’s cousin would have been in danger. These 3 houses are bound by blood to defend her.

C- I never said that Robert was a genius. In matter of fact, I stated multiple times that he couldn’t understand women and he was horrible in economics. The former saddled him with 3 illegitimate children.  What I said that Robert was quite decent in diplomatic relations and that can be seen through many decisions taken throughout the rebellion and his reign.  Its remarkable how, the Lord Paramount of the smallest region in Westeros ended up being King.

Ps: May I remind you that if Stannis didn’t resorted to black magic then probably we would still have a Baratheon king sitting on the IT by now.  That would never had happened if Robert didn’t favoured Renly over Stannis. The latter was foolish enough to marry a Florent whose got an equal claim to the Reach as the Tyrells. There’s no way the Tyrell and therefore the Reach as a whole would support a Florent queen especially since they nearly starved her husband, the king to death.

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@devilish I'm agree with your point.

Robert is a a horrible administrator, but a better diplomat than Ned and Stan combined.

But I don't put too much fault on him for Cersei affair, since I don't see any one in entire realm capable of contenting her. Sooner or later she would find an excuse to hate her husband whomever he might have been. Even her own brother and proclaimed lover fell to her deceptions.

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On 3/29/2017 at 8:20 PM, Renly was the true steel said:

i know im asking why so many readers think stannis was in the right here when he was basically risking the lives of thousands for his right to a throne he doesn't even want and doesn't have support to take it

Because Stannis believes he is the rightful heir of Robert.  Suppose your parents left a mansion for you in their will.  Do you let someone else take it from you?  Taking to the battle field is their version of taking the matter to the courts.

I actually believe the Targaryens are the rightful owners of Westeros but for the purposes of this discussion let us assume that Robert had the right to rule based on the outcome of his rebellion.  Stannis is his heir and Renly's popularity doesn't change that.  Their system is rigid and it isn't based on popular opinion.  That's why Randyll Tarly's hands were tied even as incompetent as Samwell was, Dickon could not inherit.  Laws can change but until it does the status quo applies.  I suppose Renly could win the war with Stannis and send him to the wall just like Randyll did to his first born.  That would clear the way for Renly.  

Many supporters of the Starks and the Tullys want them to fight and take back their lands.  Stannis has the same rights to what he believes is his.  Daenerys has the same rights to take back what belongs to her.  Without a modern system of laws these disputes are settled on the battle field and human lives are the currency used instead of money.   

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1 hour ago, Darkstream said:

Long it is; I've only had the chance to quickly skim through your comments, so I may have more to say when I get the time, however I just wanted to comment on this before I have to run.

Did Robert convince Ned to accept the position, or did he accept it because of Lysa's letter? Ned becoming Robert's Hand was a result of Jon Aryn's murder, which was a result of Robert's negligence and stubborn refusal to participate in any aspect of ruling. His entire small council is corrupt; his wife - fresh off of murdering his hand in order to cover up her cuckolding of him - is plotting to kill him, and place her illegitimate bastard son on his throne; and Robert is clueless and/or dismisive of all of this.

Sorry, are you telling that Cersei murdered Jon Arryn? Because she didn't, she was a red herring. Lysa and Littlefinger did him in.

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1 hour ago, The Gravepisser said:

@devilish I'm agree with your point.

Robert is a a horrible administrator, but a better diplomat than Ned and Stan combined.

But I don't put too much fault on him for Cersei affair, since I don't see any one in entire realm capable of contenting her. Sooner or later she would find an excuse to hate her husband whomever he might have been. Even her own brother and proclaimed lover fell to her deceptions.

Cersei is the single most destructive force in KL since Aerys was king. Her constant mess ups and her inability to be a good mother costed the war, Ned’s head, Joffrey’s and Tywin’s life and will probably cost the alliance with the Tyrells.

Robert was a lousy husband and father, in line to what Lyanna predicted (ie the first part not the second part). However he shouldn’t be used as the reason why Jamie-Cersei ended up together. The twins were already ‘pretty close’ in CR, way before Cersei married Robert or Joanna died giving birth to Tyrion.

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1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Because Stannis believes he is the rightful heir of Robert.  Suppose your parents left a mansion for you in their will.  Do you let someone else take it from you?  Taking to the battle field is their version of taking the matter to the courts.

I actually believe the Targaryens are the rightful owners of Westeros but for the purposes of this discussion let us assume that Robert had the right to rule based on the outcome of his rebellion.  Stannis is his heir and Renly's popularity doesn't change that.  Their system is rigid and it isn't based on popular opinion.  That's why Randyll Tarly's hands were tied even as incompetent as Samwell was, Dickon could not inherit.  Laws can change but until it does the status quo applies.  I suppose Renly could win the war with Stannis and send him to the wall just like Randyll did to his first born.  That would clear the way for Renly.  

Many supporters of the Starks and the Tullys want them to fight and take back their lands.  Stannis has the same rights to what he believes is his.  Daenerys has the same rights to take back what belongs to her.  Without a modern system of laws these disputes are settled on the battle field and human lives are the currency used instead of money.   

The rigid system was thrown out of the window the day Robert became King. He became king ahead of Viserys Targeryan who was innocent of his father/brother crimes and had a much bigger claim to the throne than Robert did.

Robert knew that by crowning himself king, he would change the rules turning succession into a popularity contest. That is the reason why he married the Lannister harpie and that is why he made the effort to go in the Northern wasteland Ned called home to convince the warden of the North to marry Joffrey to Sansa. No Targeryan king had ever bothered to do such a thing. The closest  to that was after the hour of the wolf, were a Targ princess was promised by King Aegon III to marry a Stark. That promised was never fulfilled.

 

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12 minutes ago, devilish said:

.

Robert was a lousy husband and father, in line to what Lyanna predicted (ie the first part not the second part). However he shouldn’t be used as the reason why Jamie-Cersei ended up together. The twins were already ‘pretty close’ in CR, way before Cersei married Robert or Joanna died giving birth to Tyrion.

That's correct, Robert was a horrible husband and would have been a horrible husband to any kind of woman.

But likewise Cersei could have had the perfect, doting husband, who spent all his time devoted to her and her beauty and she would have still slept with Jaime. In her twisted mind she would have probably thought of a devoted husband as "weak" or "dimwitted".

27 minutes ago, The Gravepisser said:

Pycelle landed the final blow and he was Lannister creature.

Pycelle is the "creature" of anybody who pays him. He isn't the most loyal henchman.

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6 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

That's correct, Robert was a horrible husband and would have been a horrible husband to any kind of woman.

But likewise Cersei could have had the perfect, doting husband, who spent all his time devoted to her and her beauty and she would have still slept with Jaime. In her twisted mind she would have probably thought of a devoted husband as "weak" or "dimwitted".

Pycelle is the "creature" of anybody who pays him. He isn't the most loyal henchman.

Exactly

Cersei was a mentality disturbed girl who started performing sexual acts on her twin brother long before her mother died, Tyrion was born, Aerys rejected her to be his son's queen and Robert married her and called her Lyanna instead. She ruined every dynasty she touched starting first with the Lannisters (ie by convincing Jamie to become KG) to then set her sight on the Baratheon dynasty. 

The fact that Robert wasn't a lousy father and husband didn't help. However you can't blame Robert for her being so destructive especially since medieval kings tend not to be the perfect husbands and fathers the world has ever seen. Medieval kings barely had any contact with their children until they were of age and it was very common to have lovers at the side. These courtesians were often employed as the queen's handmaidens (a job that allowed them close contact with the king) to avoid scandal.

 

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19 minutes ago, devilish said:

The fact that Robert wasn't a lousy father and husband didn't help. However you can't blame Robert for her being so destructive especially since medieval kings tend not to be the perfect husbands and fathers the world has ever seen. Medieval kings barely had any contact with their children until they were of age and it was very common to have lovers at the side. These courtesians were often employed as the queen's handmaidens (a job that allowed them close contact with the king) to avoid scandal.

 

That is true, however the books give the impression that Westerosi nobility is far more involved in their children's upbringing than real world nobility of a comparable time period and has a far greater sense of and desire for the (very modern) concept of a "nuclear family". This is especially obvious in Winterfell, but also in things like Cersei devoting an usual amount of time to her own children (compare that with English royals who often sent their kids off to their own households when they could barely walk and mostly communicated with them through letters).

The child-parent relationship we see that is most authentic to noble parent-child relationship of the corresponding RL period is actually Robert and Edric Storm. In a setting completely true to real life there's a good chance Joffrey would have been at Dragonstone (or some rural estate) by the time of GoT, brought up by tutors (which, weirdly enough, would have been the better option here) 

And the most realistic upbringing for a noble child of the time period would have been Renly who seemed to have been brought up alone in Storm's End after Stannis left for Dragonstone, and with him it was only because of the tragedies and war that struck his family and employed both his brothers elsewhere. 

Aside from special circumstances (supplying Jon Arryn with surrogate sons, getting Sweetrobin away from his beloved smother) we also hear of fostering children out far less frequently than it was common.

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36 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

That is true, however the books give the impression that Westerosi nobility is far more involved in their children's upbringing than real world nobility of a comparable time period and has a far greater sense of and desire for the (very modern) concept of a "nuclear family". This is especially obvious in Winterfell, but also in things like Cersei devoting an usual amount of time to her own children (compare that with English royals who often sent their kids off to their own households when they could barely walk and mostly communicated with them through letters).

The child-parent relationship we see that is most authentic to noble parent-child relationship of the corresponding RL period is actually Robert and Edric Storm. In a setting completely true to real life there's a good chance Joffrey would have been at Dragonstone (or some rural estate) by the time of GoT, brought up by tutors (which, weirdly enough, would have been the better option here) 

And the most realistic upbringing for a noble child of the time period would have been Renly who seemed to have been brought up alone in Storm's End after Stannis left for Dragonstone, and with him it was only because of the tragedies and war that struck his family and employed both his brothers elsewhere. 

Aside from special circumstances (supplying Jon Arryn with surrogate sons, getting Sweetrobin away from his beloved smother) we also hear of fostering children out far less frequently than it was common.

The concept of family is mainly tackled in the first book. The rest is mostly about war, betrayals etc.


 GOT focuses mostly on the Starks family which was not a conventional noble family in Westeros. 


a-    They couldn’t care less about Westerosi politics. No LP, King or Warden was as detached from KL as they did. 
b-    Ned and Cat was in a loving relationship. Most noble marriages in Westeros were unhappy and often bound together by duty or political reasons. Some even bordered to abuse (Walder F marriages or Ramsey’s marriage to Fake Arya)
c-    GOT was set at a time of peace. In times of war, Ned would be leading his troops to battle and not playing the perfect father role in Winterfell


If you take the Starks aside, then you have a more realistic picture of an early medieval noble family setup.  The mother would be the mistress of the house, dictating things often under strict supervision (nobles were in constant fear of being cuckolded) by the liege lord family members (often the mum). The Lord would be distant, focusing mostly on administrating the land, setting alliances and fighting for his king. Children would be raised mostly by servants (some were nothing more than glorified nannies but there would also be teachers and military trainers around the kids) with the supervision from the mother. That extra layer was necessary as the mentality of the day was that women were simply too mentally fragile and emotional to raise children on their own especially sons who were expected to be tough.  


Etiquette introduced later in time changed the landscape of how royal families raised their children adding layers of complexity and dictating every step and action they made. However the mentality I described before still survives in some shape and form among common people living in rural areas in the South Mediterranean countries. I have a former neighbour who married a Sicilian farmer and she told me how her life is controlled by her mother in law who is the matriarch of the family. For example she comes and pick her and her other daughters in law out to do shopping together and she dictates how the children are raised. When she returns to our country, her mother in law would call her mother to check her out.
 

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12 hours ago, Darkstream said:

How am I suppose to counter this argument without being condescending and treating you like a child? If you can't understand - or are unwilling to accept - that allegiances and loyalties can change due to events and circumstances that occur throughout one's life, then there is nothing I can say that will change your mind.

And again, you choose to ignore the point of my comments. For arguments sake, let's assume that every two years, there was a year long siege of Storm's End, your argument is STILL irrelevant.

Right, and when Robert ignores Tywin, and does as he pleases, how is that any different than what you posit Robert would do with Stannis? I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm drawing a conclusion based on the words that came out of your mouth. Your argument here is contradicting your argument against Stannis.

Since when is quitting and packing up your bags to head home considered using force? And am I suppose to accept that using force against your King is a trait that makes a good hand?

And Jaimie, so what, now you're claiming that murdering your king in opposition to his ways is being a good hand? How is Jaimie suppose to stop Robert, who you claim would just overule his hand, and do what he wants either way? Put his sword through Robert's back? And that's a very convincing argument, "not being actually good at governing", yet he'd still be a good hand. What?!!!?

Talk about an axe to grind, your argument is clearly coming from a biased hatred towards Stannis. You make all of these arguments against him, but then discard the same argument in order to continue your argument against him. :rolleyes:

"Just because someone holds an opinion doesn't mean that it's necessarily correct." I'm going to have to say that the opinion you are arguing here is proof of that.

ETA:

You think that Stannis' position was " f*cking enriched 1000x", Stannis doesn't view it that way, his allegiances are going to be determined by his perception, not by yours.

So he did make an attempt to help his brother, and took his purely speculative concerns to someone he thought might listen, who also was in the best position to do something about it. Interesting.

And clearly an intelligent and necessary decision by him to get out of King's Landing, or he would have suffered the same fate as Jon.

On the contrary I don't hate Stannis at all. He's a greatly compelling character with a rich story arc and an interesting development. Stannis was greatly enriched and rewarded for loyal service and the end result was that he didn't even bother warning Robert about being cuckolded or his thoughts that Cersei might try to get rid of them. 

As to using force, well Ned didn't use force. He acted forcefully, and the primary definition of forcefully is "in a strong and assertive manner; vigorously" not with violence. Tywin dealt with Aerys quite well. He could do the same with Robert and he wouldn't alienate people the same way Stannis does. 

Stannis was enriched 1000x over what he could reasonably expect. He's the second son. He's not entitled to lands or titles beyond the ser I'm assuming he got from Robert or someone else. He wanted to be named Hand for no particular reason other than nepotism. His expectation to be named hand wasn't even that off base or unrealistic. His reaction was completely baffling. Running off when you're in danger makes sense, if you can protect yourself when the danger comes knocking. It's why Renly ran and then married into the Tyrells. He knew he couldn't protect himself by holing up in SE, which was him by the king's generosity and could be stripped from him by, say, a mentally unbalanced regent who wants to kill him. Stannis holed up in DS, gathering mercenaries, calling banners, and building ships while his brother is still alive and doesn't know Cersei wants him dead. Even Stannis admits he had his priorities mixed up.

Yes, I should have come sooner. If not for my Hand, I might not have come at all. Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne."

I really really don't know how anyone can defend Stannis' actions and stances pre-ASOS. I really don't. Even if he didn't feel as if he owed Robert any loyalty -- should have resigned as master of ships in that case -- telling Robert and/or Ned about the cuckoldry still self-serves him in a great way. Should it be proven or Robert accepts the evidence, Stannis suddenly becomes heir again and the Lannisters are far away from court. Cersei didn't kill Jon. Lysa did. Is Stannis' wife, who is far away on DS, gonna poison his food? I know why Stannis didn't take it directly to Robert, but telling people what is going on is his best chance to stay alive and retain/grow his power.

As far as Jamie being a potentially good hand, it was a partially flippant response specifically because "My brother, Jaime, thirsts for battle, not for power. He's run from every chance he's had to rule." and "His brother [Jaime] never untied a knot when he could slash it in two with his sword." 

That obviously wouldn't fly with Robert as king, though it might be pretty entertaining to watch.

 

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18 hours ago, devilish said:

Anyway, time and time again Robert showed great coolness and pragmatism in handling things. On one hand he refused to punish Jamie for assaulting Ned. On the other hand he refused to send an army to rescue the imp when he was kidnapped by Cat. By doing so, he avoided a war between two of the biggest houses in Westeros.

But he didn't avoid a war between the two biggest houses in Westeros. His methods of dealing with this serious and volatile situation was one of the main catalyst leading up to the WOFK. Again you're crediting Robert with a savvy move, when in fact he was being irresponsible and dismisive. He didn't want to get his hands dirty dealing with something that was his obligation to get involved in, all because he didn't have the balls to deal with Cersei - as was the case with the incident at the Trident as well - so he brushed it under the carpet, and took off on a hunting trip; Leaving the two parties who were at each other's throats in charge of the Kingdom, to wreck more havoc and cause turmoil.

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Now let’s return to Stannis. Robert was not obliged to give his lands and titles to anybody, which means he could have left Renly and Stannis without any lands and totally dependent on him. That’s what common practice across all Westeros. Kevan Lannister was Tywin’s biggest ally and yet he was never given a Lordship. Some second sons end up with a worse deal. For example Benjen ended up joining the NW. In few words, Robert’s offer to Stannis was extremely generous, far more generous that the one offered by most LPs and Kings. So we can put this ‘Robert wanted to slight Stannis’ theory to sleep.

Sure, like I've admitted, it was generous of him to give out lands as he had no obligation to do so. However, under normal circumstances, there is not an influx of seats to be given out to family members. That is why second sons often take the black, or are left with other such options. There were extenuating circumstances that led to the family seat being vacant, and as per traditional customs in Westeros, this seat should be handed over to the next eldest heir. And any surplus lands going to the remaining family members if available. Ned even mentions that this is likely for Bran, who is a second son.

A Game of Thrones - Eddard V

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"No," Ned said. He saw no use in lying to her. "Yet someday he may be the lord of a great holdfast and sit on the king's council. He might raise castles like Brandon the Builder, or sail a ship across the Sunset Sea, or enter your mother's Faith and become the High Septon." But he will never run beside his wolf again, he thought with a sadness too deep for words, or lie with a woman, or hold his own son in his arms.

So no, Robert wasn't obligated to anything, and sure he had a legitimate reason to want Stannis on Dragonstone, but its no strech to see why this was an insult to Stannis; Robert's decision went against the traditional customs by awarding the wealthier, and more prestigious seat to the younger of his two siblings.

15 hours ago, devilish said:

@Darkstream 

Please read it when you’ve got time. I am aware that its ridiculously long so I am more than willing to wait.

Hey, no proplem. It's quite obvious that you are very knowledgeable in this area, and I enjoy reading what you have to say on the matter - even though I might not agree with how you relate this to Robert.

I apologize, as I only have a quick second to pop in here again, but would like to discuss the latter portion of your post with you when I have more time. 

:cheers:

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