why does everyone blame Renly for Stannis's mistake

[Bernie Mac]

6 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

This has already been addressed up thread. Stannis did take what were the most prudent steps in an attempt to warn his dismissive King.

He did nothing. Clearly his evidence was not good enough to convince Robert. 

 

3 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

When your brother is also your rightful King, you do.

And how is Renly supposed to know that? Stannis could have let Renly know his information while Robert was still alive. In  fact he does not even try to give Renly any proof of his claims, just says that he King and pouts when others don't believe him. 

[Darkstream]

17 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

He did nothing.

No, he took his concerns to someone he thought he could trust, and was in a position to do something about it; The second most powerful man in the kingdom. He was also actively participating in an investigation in the attempt to procure the evidence that he sorely needed.

When Jon Aryn was murdered, in the interest of self preservation, fearing that his own life was in danger, he fled to Dragonstone knowing that without proof, his dear brother would ignore and belittle his accusations as rumors that served his own interests.

17 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

Clearly his evidence was not good enough to convince Robert. 

Exactly, thus the course of action he took. If he attempted to warn Robert, he would be seen as committing treason, and rest assured, Cercei would not let that stand.

 

[Bernie Mac]

6 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

No, he took his concerns to someone he thought he could trust, and was in a position to do something about it; The second most powerful man in the kingdom. He was also actively participating in an investigation in the attempt to procure the evidence that he sorely needed.

He could have also warned his younger brother and the new Hand. He chose not to. He did nothing. 

6 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

When Jon Aryn was murdered, in the interest of self preservation, fearing that his own life was in danger, he fled to Dragonstone knowing that without proof, his dear brother would ignore and belittle his accusations as rumors that served his own interests.

That is not actually true. He stuck around Kings Landing for some time after Arryn's death. Not once does Stannis claim he fled in fear for his life (or that he fled at all) and in fact this contradicts his anger about not being made Hand. 

Had he been made Hand he would have stick around, instead he left the city at some point while the Royal family was on their travels North. 

6 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Exactly, thus the course of action he took. If he attempted to warn Robert, he would be seen as committing treason, and rest assured, Cercei would not let that stand.

 

Thank you. If his evidence was not good enough for Robert why should it be good enough for Renly or the rest of Westeros. 

[Darkstream]

19 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

He could have also warned his younger brother and the new Hand. He chose not to. He did nothing. 

To what ends? Besides, there was no new Hand, Ned was not in KL when Stannis left, and neither was Renly - not that going to Renly would accomplish anything. Was he supposed to know that Robert was going to be murdered, and Renly was going to attempt to usurp the Crown?

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That is not actually true. He stuck around Kings Landing for some time after Arryn's death. Not once does Stannis claim he fled in fear for his life (or that he fled at all) and in fact this contradicts his anger about not being made Hand. 

So? That doesn't mean anything. And how does it contradict his anger? He left sometime after Robert left to appoint his new Hand, and before they got back. 

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Had he been made Hand he would have stick around, instead he left the city at some point while the Royal family was on their travels North. 

Yeah, and if that happened he may have been in a position to do something about it, and were that the case, he may have had more faith in Robert listening to him.

Instead, Robert, as usual shunned him, and took off to give the position to his unqualified friend.

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Thank you. If his evidence was not good enough for Robert why should it be good enough for Renly or the rest of Westeros. 

Who says it was?

[Ser Loras The Gay]

It really comes down to two things. 
1) Westeros politics works in a particular way, where the eldest relative (if you don't have children of you own) is your heir.
2) Stannis and no one for that matter could prove Robert's children weren't his.
That being said, the strongest claim wasn't the eldest relative but who had more strenght.

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 hour ago, Darkstream said:

This has already been addressed up thread. Stannis did take what were the most prudent steps in an attempt to warn his dismissive King.

Nah he didn't. He did once and then let the matter slide.

1 hour ago, Darkstream said:

When your brother is also your rightful King, you do.

He never proved he was the rightful king.

[Darkstream]

38 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

 He stuck around Kings Landing for some time after Arryn's death. 

 

23 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

So? That doesn't mean anything. 

Just to elaborate on this. Is it unreasonable to assume he was weighing his options? Getting his affairs in order, and making plans?

[Universal Sword Donor]

Just now, Darkstream said:

Just to elaborate on this. Is it unreasonable to assume he was weighing his options? Getting his affairs in order, and making plans?

Yes. He was really only weighing one or two options, maximizing his offensive or defensive capabilities. Nothing was coming out of Dragonstone and at no point do we see anything indicating he was going to reach out to anyone. No ship had left the island in six months. That's more than enough time to get affairs in order.

[Bernie Mac]

19 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

To what ends? Besides, there was no new Hand, Ned was not in KL when Stannis left,

Is he not capable of sending ravens or messengers? There was many ways that Stannis could have attempted to warn his King. He choose to do nothing. 

19 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

 

and neither was Renly - not that going to Renly would accomplish anything.

Renly was.

19 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

 

Was he supposed to know that Robert was going to be murdered, and Renly was going to attempt to usurp the Crown?

If he genuinely thought that the Lannisters had killed the Hand of the King then what is to stop them doing the same to Robert?

If Davos thought Stannis' life in danger he would have warned him as he is a loyal subject. Stannis chose to do nothing. 

19 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

So? That doesn't mean anything. And how does it contradict his anger? He left sometime after Robert left to appoint his new Hand, and before they got back. 

You made a claim that is not backed up by the text. Sorry, but Stannis did not flee Kings Landing for fear of his life. 

19 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Yeah, and if that happened he may have been in a position to do something about it, and were that the case, he may have had more faith in Robert listening to him.

Again, Stannis did nothing. 

19 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Instead, Robert, as usual shunned him, and took off to give the position to his unqualified friend.

How exactly did Robert shun him? Is not making someone Hand now the equivalent of shunning someone?

 

1 minute ago, Darkstream said:

 

Just to elaborate on this. Is it unreasonable to assume he was weighing his options? Getting his affairs in order, and making plans?

There was nine months between the death of Jon Arryn and Robert. It seems a stretch that he was making plans to help Robert. 

[Darkstream]

1 minute ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Nah he didn't. He did once and then let the matter slide.

Right, just saying Nah, and ignoring the text isn't much of an argument.

1 minute ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

He never proved he was the rightful king.

So, what's your point? Nobody is claiming that he did.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

bugs.

[Darkstream]

14 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

That being said, the strongest claim wasn't the eldest relative but who had more strenght.

But that is not a claim, that is a treasonous coup.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

Just now, Darkstream said:

But that is not a claim, that is a treasoness coup.

And what Stannis is doing is EXACTLY THE SAME THING. He can't prove therefore he's being treacherous.

[Universal Sword Donor]

12 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Right, just saying Nah, and ignoring the text isn't much of an argument.

So, what's your point? Nobody is claiming that he did.

You're correct there. Saying it is basically condensing the entirety of books 1 and 2 into a short sentence wrt Stannis' actions.

You guys keep claiming that Renly failed in his duty to his rightful king. If Renly feels his rightful king isn't Stannis but rather Joffrey, then you guys are claiming Stannis was, which you are and have been. 

None of us is taking this argument from the reader's perspective. We are taking it from the in-world perspective.

[Lady bonehead]

If you are going to blame Stannis, you have to start by blaming Ned, who basically staged a coup on Stannis's behalf without consulting him or having any notion whether or not he would be a good king. At least Stannis had the virtue of caution.

[Darkstream]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Is he not capable of sending ravens or messengers? There was many ways that Stannis could have attempted to warn his King. He choose to do nothing. 

Again, to what ends? As you all bring up every post, he had no proof.

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Renly was.

Well he did meet the King's party at the Trident, so it's hard to say where he was at all times. Either way, that's irrelevant; Why in the Seven Hells would Stannis go to Renly?

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If he genuinely thought that the Lannisters had killed the Hand of the King then what is to stop them doing the same to Robert?

Nothing, just as there was nothing to stop them from killing Stannis. Why would he stick around and put his life in danger when he had no proof, or anyone that would listen or support him?

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You made a claim that is not backed up by the text.

Correction, I'm making an assumption based on the text, and the circumstances.

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How exactly did Robert shun him? Is not making someone Hand now the equivalent of shunning someone?

Well that's been covered extensively throughout this thread, and a main point of contention. I'm not going to reiterate it all again.

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There was nine months between the death of Jon Arryn and Robert. It seems a stretch that he was making plans to help Robert. 

I was talking about the time it took him to flee to Dragonstone. 

As per your statement:

"He stuck around Kings Landing for some time after Arryn's death."

[Trigger Warning]

Would Stannis think that "I didn't think you'd believe me" would be a good enough excuse were he in Robert's position?

To be honest if I was Stannis I'd probably tell Renly, or reach out to Ned and not tell Robert until I had proof but you really can't frame simply leaving to sit on Dragonstone as anything else but self serving. 

[Darkstream]

38 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

And what Stannis is doing is EXACTLY THE SAME THING. He can't prove therefore he's being treacherous.

Except Stannis is correct, and doing what he believes is lawful and right. Renly is knowingly and willfully committing a deplorable crime. That is far from EXACTLY THE SAME THING.

[Darkstream]

8 minutes ago, Trigger Warning said:

Would Stannis think that "I didn't think you'd believe me" would be a good enough excuse were he in Robert's position?
 

Probably not. I'm not saying it was a good excuse, or reasonable. But in Stannis' mind, and considering the relationship between him and his brothers, it was presumably, the reason, or a factor, influencing the choices that he made.

[ravenous reader]

Sigh...Are we still talking about this?

In a nutshell, why does no one acknowledge that Stannis did exactly what Renly did -- he just did it better.  His hawk flew higher, so where is the love for his antisocial genius in toppling his brother in one fell swoop?

'Eating the peach' is a symbol for fratricide and usurpation and all those 'glorious' Promethean activities, in which we revel in the egoistic ecstasy of the 'win win win' at all costs, including to the detriment of our filial and more generally prosocial relations.  Like Robert, Renly was prepared to do it; he taunted Stannis to try it -- are you man enough to take a bite of this peach brother, before it's too late and the darkness closes on you (like, say, tomorrow on the battlefield when I'm gonna finish you off, so stew on that...) -- so Stannis, baited, did.  What are we arguing about the merits of the meritocracy for?  Renly was prepared to kill his brother, yet we're still arguing about his position in the popularity stakes, and how his charisma somehow excuses his behavior.  Renly failed to stick by the rules, and paid for it.  That's the risk of overstepping your purview and flouting social norms -- sometimes it backfires.