why does everyone blame Renly for Stannis's mistake

[Darkstream]

3 minutes ago, Traverys said:

As I mentioned above, the "careless generosity" in my opinion refers to Robert not keeping the revenue/levies provided by holding the titles for himself. Stannis and Renly were never situated to inherit anything at any time until Robert won a war and claimed a kingship and Dragonstone. Robert could have easily (and justly) held onto them to supplement his extravagant spending, but was more generous than that (for good or bad). Careless generosity, in my opinion, is synonymous to his noted distaste for what he called "counting coppers."

And as I mentioned above, I'm not arguing that it wasn't generous of Robert to give away Storm's End and Dragonstone. The slight was in which brother received which seat.

But yes, I can agree that is a plausible interpretation of "careless."

Edited April 21, 2017 by Darkstream

[Sullen]

42 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

But not too young to for Storm's End, and the threat faced by Dorne?

And again, what is this huge threat coming out of Dragonstone?

Jon Arryn took care of Dorne, and the Stormlands bannermen were not a considerable risk, they're pretty loyal to Robert already, which wasn't the case of the lords of the Narrow Sea.

The threat coming out of Dragonstone are the Velaryons, the Sunglasses, the Celtigars, pretty much any House that could have potentially supported a Targaryen coup. Stannis took pretty good care of them though, but they could easily flip as soon as Dany or Aegon lands on Westeros, they could have also flipped if Viserys ever came back with his horde of Dothraki, as Robert feared.

Dragonstone and the Narrow Sea is pretty much the main naval entryway to King's Landing and the Crownlands, and if Viserys were to come back, he'd likely go through there. Robert could not under any circumstance let it fall or else he'd be in a pretty precarious position, hence why he appointed the brother he thought he could trust to the position (and made him Master of Ships).

Edited April 21, 2017 by Sullen

[Darkstream]

5 minutes ago, Sullen said:

Jon Arryn took care of Dorne, and the Stormlands bannermen were not a considerable risk, they're pretty loyal to Robert already, which wasn't the case of the lords of the Narrow Sea.

The threat coming out of Dragonstone are the Velaryons, the Sunglasses, the Celtigars, pretty much any House that could have potentially supported a Targaryen coup. Stannis took pretty good care of them though, but they could easily flip as soon as Dany or Aegon lands on Westeros, they could have also flipped if Viserys ever came back with his horde of Dothraki, as Robert feared.

Dragonstone and the Narrow Sea is pretty much the main naval entryway to King's Landing and the Crownlands, and if Viserys were to come back, he'd likely go through that way. Robert could not under any circumstance let it fall or else he'd be in a pretty precarious position, hence why he appointed the brother he thought he could trust to the position (and made him Master of Ships).

Fair enough. I can concede to that explanation.

[Universal Sword Donor]

10 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

But not too young to for Storm's End, and the threat faced by Dorne?

And again, what is this huge threat coming out of Dragonstone?

You mean in the Stormlands, who are" too fiercely loyal to Robert" according to Jon, would be a challenge for a castellan to administer? And Dorne hasn't invaded the Stormlands in 100+ years. Any rebellion would be handled by Robert himself (see Greyjoy Rebellion). An invasion by Dorne would be, naturally, part of or the totality of the civil war.

As to the huge threat out of DS, well it's not Dragonstone but all the Targ loyalists sworn to DS like the Velaryons, who were half-Targ themselves and nearly always Master of Ships, Celtigars who came with the Targs to Westeros, or the Masseys who marched with the Targs during the Blackfire rebellion. Even ignoring them Robert correctly ascertains there are loyalists like the Darrys, the Dornish, and others who would jump on the Targ bandwagon if they reinvaded. Putting Stannis as Master of Ships as Lord of DS with most of the royal fleet near blackwater bay gives him the best location and ability to resist a naval attack or invasion by allies of the Targs while protecting KL. Whether or not Robert knew that there was a considerable amount of resistance to his rule (and there was as I mentioned before), he saw the possibility/inevitability of it and responded how he thought best.

If you want to posit that it was careless generosity but Stannis took it as a slight, I'd have no disagreement. However the only people who seem to see it as a slap to the face are Stannis, who is bitter about literally everything through the first 2-3 books, and Cersei, who singlehandedly ruins the Lannister dynasty, ruins Joffrey, runs the government into the ground, and wantonly murders people who have no use to her. I see a bitter man with a personal agenda and a quite possibly insane, narcissistic moron who hated Robert with an opinion that is diametric to every other voice in the story.

 

[Darkstream]

Alright, alright. All of you ganging up on me, as it were  have presented a compelling argument as to why Robert decided to alot the seats as he did. I concede that he had legitimate reasons for his decision other than to slight Stannis - although I would still contend that he probably wasn't disappointed in the fact that it would rub Stannis the wrong way.

3 hours ago, Sullen said:

Because it's his duty.

To abandon your brother and rightful King when his life is in danger is downright treasonous, even if you believe that your warnings would go unheard. Stannis' wait-and-see approach to the Lannisters cuckolding and murdering their way to the Throne paints him as a complete hypocrite when the topic of brotherly duty comes up.

You simply can't bring up self-preservation as a valid reason for Stannis shirking his duty and committing treason and then blame Renly for doing the same, it's completely contradictory.

In my defence, it wasn't my intention to defend these actions, but to present them from Stannis' point of view.

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Robert was a 'dick'.  Renly was a 'dick'.  But at least they were talented and charismatic dicks, unlike Stannis who is one of those unfortunate dicks one would rather have nothing to do with.   Isn't that what we're debating here -- whether it's OK to be a dick and disloyal as long as you're attractive, popular and successful at your job (oh, and know how to throw a good party)?

And yes,  I think this sums it up quite well.

[Darkstream]

32 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

You mean in the Stormlands, 

Yes, my apologies, I miss spoke typed.

[Universal Sword Donor]

13 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Yes, my apologies, I miss spoke typed.

That was not meant to be a correction, more of a rhetorical question. But hey I'm glad i could help out!

[Darkstream]

2 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

That was not meant to be a correction, more of a rhetorical question. But hey I'm glad i could help out!

Yeah, I understood what you meant, just what I meant to say was that Dorne and the Reach borders the Stormlands. Those two territories posing the threat, not the Stormlands. Your statement just made me realize my error. Anyway, moot point at this juncture.

Edited April 21, 2017 by Darkstream

[rowanfakindaynedarrion]

The Tyrells would probably have stayed neutral or gone with the Northerners

[devilish]

4 hours ago, Darkstream said:

And as I mentioned above, I'm not arguing that it wasn't generous of Robert to give away Storm's End and Dragonstone. The slight was in which brother received which seat.

But yes, I can agree that is a plausible interpretation of "careless."

Robert understood women and finance as much as Samwell Tarly understood the difference between a poleaxe and a harberd, but he wasn't stupid. The man was a genius in terms of building diplomatic ties and he could understand how precarious his fledgling dynasty was.

The Baratheons has possibly one of the weakest history in all Westeros. While the Starks can pride of being descendents of great kings, the Baratheon history became as a matchup between a bastard and a princess who was first turned down by Aegon and then paraded naked like some whore. Their ancestral land produced great warriors but a small army (20k would be wiped up by 1/2 of the reach) and their claim to the throne is flimbsy. Sure Aerys and Rhaegar had messed up big time. However Danny and Viserys were innocent and they had a bigger claim to the throne then he did.

Robert marriage with Cersei might have been necessary as it brought the Lannisters at his side but it also created new enemies. Decent lords (loyalists or not)  were disgusted by the fact that the Lannisters were rewarded for their crimes and that include Ned, who remained loyal to Robert but fled North for years. The Baratheon dynasty rested solely on the friendship the king had with 2 men (Arryn and Ned) and their contacts (Hoster). Jon and Hoster were old, Ned, was growing more and more attached to Winterfell as time went by.

Thus why he needed to take radical actions to ratify that. Knowing that Tywin would burn CR to the ground rather then give it to the imp, Robert kept Jamie as KG .That allowed Tommen to place a reasonable claim to CR through mummy in the future.

Thanks to the greyjoy rebellion he got his hands on Balon's last son Theon who was offloaded to Winterfell in a bid to turn him into a decent and honourable Westerosi. Once his father died, Robert would have been more then wiling to fight for his claim for the IS, possibly after convincing Ned to marry Arya to him

Meanwhile he instructed the more charismatic Renly to cuddle the Tyrells, giving him the necessary tools (the Stormlands) to attract Mace and Margaery. That would have ensured him the support of the Tyrells.

Finally he took the painful expedition to reach the vast wasteland, Ned likes to call home to blast his way within the Northern Coalition (Stark-Tully-Arryn) by having his son marry Ned's first born. After that marriage, the Starks, the Tullys and the Arryns would be bound by blood to defend the crown prince rather then simply by duty and friendship.

Before his death, the once LP of the smallest region in Westeros, who couldn't even raise all his army against Aerys became king with a son whom either him (Uncle Renly whose married to Auntie Margeary, Grandpa Tywin) or his future wife (Daddy Ned, Grandpa Hoster, Cousin Robin) should have alliances bound by blood with most of Westeros and that was achieved with 2 children to spare (Myrcella and Tommen). 

So were does Stannis fit in all this? Nowhere. As Lord of Dragonstone and as heir to the throne , Stannis was given the golden opportunity to marry within a prestigeous family and consolidate the power Robert had on the throne. What does he do with such power? He went on marrying some random girl, the daughter of a landed knight who wasn't even a Lord. Robert fecked a girl in his wedding whose father had nearly as much claim to Brightwater's keep as Selyse's father had. Can you blame the king for not giving him a better title after that?

 

 

Edited April 21, 2017 by devilish

[Darkstream]

54 minutes ago, devilish said:

 <snip for length>

Ah, but who's plan was really more genius, Stannis' or Robert's?

Marriage to Cercei = Robert's death

Marriage to Selyse = Red witch of Rahloo =  Renly's death = Stannis as the only Baratheon brother still alive

Check and mate!!

Seriously though, a very excellent summary of the political landscape following RR.

[Minsc]

9 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

If Robert had had any balls, he'd have made Stannis his Hand instead of Ned.  A lot of things would've been different.

No, if Robert somehow had even less brains than he would have made Stannis his Hand.  Stannis would make a fucking awful Hand.  The Hand has three major duties for the king 1) Act as his emissary to the different nobles of the realm, 2) Act as the first among equals within the Small Council, and 3) Act of the chief advisor for the King.  Meanwhile, Stannis 1) dislikes and is in turned disliked by most of the nobles of the realm, 2) dislikes and is in turned disliked by most of the Small Council, and 3) Fights with king over various stupid and petty issues.  Stannis offers no benefits to himself being named king that almost any other important lord couldn't do better.

 

 

[ravenous reader]

1 minute ago, Minsc said:

No, if Robert somehow had even less brains than he would have made Stannis his Hand.  Stannis would make a fucking awful Hand.  The Hand has three major duties for the king 1) Act as his emissary to the different nobles of the realm, 2) Act as the first among equals within the Small Council, and 3) Act of the chief advisor for the King.  Meanwhile, Stannis 1) dislikes and is in turned disliked by most of the nobles of the realm, 2) dislikes and is in turned disliked by most of the Small Council, and 3) Fights with king over various stupid and petty issues.  Stannis offers no benefits to himself being named king that almost any other important lord couldn't do better.

He would have seen through Littlefinger.  That's all that matters.

Edited April 22, 2017 by ravenous reader

[Minsc]

Just now, ravenous reader said:

He would have seen through Littlefinger.  That's all that matters.

He most likely didn't like LF over him owning brothels and Robert likely wouldn't have done shit to LF even if Stannis asked it.

[ravenous reader]

2 minutes ago, Minsc said:

He most likely didn't like LF over him owning brothels and Robert likely wouldn't have done shit to LF even if Stannis asked it.

At least someones eyes would have been open.  The realm needed a firm hand, not a pushover like Ned still stuck in his childhood slavishly following Robert like a dog.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Davos IV

"Why would you want it, then?" Davos asked him.

"It is not a question of wanting. The throne is mine, as Robert's heir. That is law. After me, it must pass to my daughter, unless Selyse should finally give me a son." He ran three fingers lightly down the table, over the layers of smooth hard varnish, dark with age. "I am king. Wants do not enter into it. I have a duty to my daughter. To the realm. Even to Robert. He loved me but little, I know, yet he was my brother. The Lannister woman gave him horns and made a motley fool of him. She may have murdered him as well, as she murdered Jon Arryn and Ned Stark. For such crimes there must be justice. Starting with Cersei and her abominations. But only starting. I mean to scour that court clean. As Robert should have done, after the Trident. Ser Barristan once told me that the rot in King Aerys's reign began with Varys. The eunuch should never have been pardoned. No more than the Kingslayer. At the least, Robert should have stripped the white cloak from Jaime and sent him to the Wall, as Lord Stark urged. He listened to Jon Arryn instead. I was still at Storm's End, under siege and unconsulted." He turned abruptly, to give Davos a hard shrewd look. "The truth, now. Why did you wish to murder Lady Melisandre?"

 

[Minsc]

58 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

At least someones eyes would have been open.  The realm needed a firm hand, not a pushover like Ned still stuck in his childhood slavishly following Robert like a dog.

 

Yeah, none of that gives any support for why Robert should appoint him Hand.

[ravenous reader]

1 minute ago, Minsc said:

Yeah, none of that gives any support for why Robert should appoint him Hand.

Stannis can see what to do, and is not afraid to do it.  That's what makes him so scary.

He would have nullified Littlefinger and Varys without becoming emotional.  Once one sidelines the 'invisible players,' one truly controls the realm.   

[Lord Wraith]

15 hours ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

That doesn't prove that he was a better ruler than Stannis. Mace had a bigger army than Stannis and he still lost against him.

He also have never fight or gain anything, everything was given to him. Much like how he married the sister of his lover. Stannis on the other hand had proved himself and he wasn't able to have a new wife.

Oh having a better army doesn't make you a better ruler, I wasn't implying that. I was just saying he'd have the best chance of success. I mean Aegon turned out to be a good ruler but he wasn't king because he was a good ruler he became King because he had three dragons and conquest.

10 hours ago, Sullen said:

Because it's his duty.

To abandon your brother and rightful King when his life is in danger is downright treasonous, even if you believe that your warnings would go unheard. Stannis' wait-and-see approach to the Lannisters cuckolding and murdering their way to the Throne paints him as a complete hypocrite when the topic of brotherly duty comes up.

You simply can't bring up self-preservation as a valid reason for Stannis shirking his duty and committing treason and then blame Renly for doing the same, it's completely contradictory.

I agree this has always been something that irked me about Stannis. Kills one brother and basically lets the other one die.

8 hours ago, Darkstream said:

But not too young to for Storm's End, and the threat faced by Dorne?

And again, what is this huge threat coming out of Dragonstone? I mean, even Aegon, with his three dragons relocated to the mainland in order to commence his assault on Westeros. Dragonstone is a resourceless rock out in the middle of a bay.

What threat by Dorne?

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

He would have seen through Littlefinger.  That's all that matters.

He did and even mentions it in Dance. Robert was fine with the corruption as long as it increased the crown's purse as well.

[ravenous reader]

5 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

He did and even mentions it in Dance. Robert was fine with the corruption as long as it increased the crown's purse as well.

I was referring to Stannis.

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

For such crimes there must be justice. Starting with Cersei and her abominations. But only starting. I mean to scour that court clean. As Robert should have done, after the Trident. Ser Barristan once told me that the rot in King Aerys's reign began with Varys. The eunuch should never have been pardoned. No more than the Kingslayer. At the least, Robert should have stripped the white cloak from Jaime and sent him to the Wall, as Lord Stark urged.

Sometimes, in response to a couple of charming psychopaths like Varys and Littlefinger, one needs the antidote:  the uncharming Stannis doing a relentlessly uncompromising 'stress interview' to rip off the mask!

Edited April 22, 2017 by ravenous reader

[Lord Wraith]

1 minute ago, ravenous reader said:

I was referring to Stannis.

Sometimes, in response to a couple of charming psychopaths like Varys and Littlefinger, one needs the antidote:  the uncharming Stannis doing a 'stress interview' to rip off the mask!

I was referring to Stannis as well. Apparently the corruption at court was well enough known to the Small Council but Robert didn't care so no one else did. Stannis says as much to Janos Slynt.