Renly was the true steel

why does everyone blame Renly for Stannis's mistake

636 posts in this topic

Just now, Lord Wraith said:

I was referring to Stannis as well. Apparently the corruption at court was well enough known to the Small Council but Robert didn't care so no one else did. Stannis says as much to Janos Slynt.

My argument was that the realm would have been better served with Stannis as Hand (although there would have been fewer jousts).

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Just now, ravenous reader said:

My argument was that the realm would have been better served with Stannis as Hand (although there would have been fewer jousts).

Probably... I think Baelish wanted to be Hand after he killed off Jon Arryn. Shame Robert could see the quality in his brothers.

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9 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

Probably... I think Baelish wanted to be Hand after he killed off Jon Arryn. Shame Robert could see the quality in his brothers.

In the Vale, Robert and Ned established a destructive relationship pattern of Robert as 'alpha' with Ned as 'beta' traipsing after him into every foolhardy venture.  Robert Baratheon was guided by one principle in life -- following his own ease; and reciprocally negating his own dis-ease (and disease) -- which is the principal reason he chose Ned as Hand...Because Ned was a pushover, to the extent Ned was even willing to murder one of his own children because Robert was too pathetic to stand up to Cersei's nagging.  Symbolically 'Lady' was one of his family -- he severely damaged Sansa as a result, all because of the dirty truth he loved Bobby B more than anyone else in the world, including his own children.  Too enmeshed and too unhealthy for an advisor-advisee relationship. Stannis is annoying, but he's free of these emotional entanglements.  He can see clearly in a way few around him can-- because 'love is the death of duty'; and Stannis puts 'duty' ahead of 'love'.  Which is something Ned is incapable of, despite all appearances to the contrary.

Edited by ravenous reader

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7 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

In the Vale, Robert and Ned established a destructive pattern of Robert as 'alpha' with Ned as 'beta' traipsing after him into every foolhardy venture.  Robert Baratheon was guided by one principle in life -- following his own ease; and reciprocally negating his own dis-ease (and disease) -- which is the principal reason he chose Ned as Hand...Because Ned was a pushover, to the extent Ned was even willing to murder one of his own children because Robert was too pathetic to stand up to Cersei's nagging.  Symbolically 'Lady' was one of his family -- he severely damaged Sansa as a result, all because of the dirty truth he loved Bobby B more than anyone else in the world, including his own children.  Too enmeshed and too unhealthy for an advisor-advisee relationship. Stannis is annoying, but he's free of these emotional entanglements.  He can see clearly in a way few around him can-- because 'love is the death of duty'; and Stannis puts 'duty' ahead of 'love'.  Which is something Ned is incapable of, despite all appearances to the contrary.

Preach it.

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7 hours ago, Darkstream said:

Ah, but who's plan was really more genius, Stannis' or Robert's?

Marriage to Cercei = Robert's death

Marriage to Selyse = Red witch of Rahloo =  Renly's death = Stannis as the only Baratheon brother still alive

Check and mate!! ;)

Seriously though, a very excellent summary of the political landscape following RR. :thumbsup:

I already said that he knew absolutely nothing about women and money. In fact the former ended up costing him his life.

However that a trait all Baratheons seem to have. The Red witch costed the Baratheons their throne, the Stormlands army and Storm's end. The Florents also lost their home. Stannis is now accused of kinslaying and is barely surviving in the frozen wasteland the Starks calls home as his skeleton crew will soon be facing, possibly the worse enemy of them all (Ramsey Snow). All because he believed the lies of this priestess who 'serve' the god of the living while busy making sure that piles of corpses are left for the great other to resurrect.

If Stannis bent the knee than he would probably be LP of the Stormlands by now, depending on how much time the Tyrell-Baratheon forces took to avenge his brother's death. At that point the young wolf would have had no choice but to bent the knee and together they would crush first the greyjoys and then the others. Lady Shireen would be safe in Storm's end not freezing in the frigging North with no home to call her own. 

 

 

 

Edited by devilish

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3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

In the Vale, Robert and Ned established a destructive relationship pattern of Robert as 'alpha' with Ned as 'beta' traipsing after him into every foolhardy venture.  Robert Baratheon was guided by one principle in life -- following his own ease; and reciprocally negating his own dis-ease (and disease) -- which is the principal reason he chose Ned as Hand...Because Ned was a pushover, to the extent Ned was even willing to murder one of his own children because Robert was too pathetic to stand up to Cersei's nagging.  Symbolically 'Lady' was one of his family -- he severely damaged Sansa as a result, all because of the dirty truth he loved Bobby B more than anyone else in the world, including his own children.  Too enmeshed and too unhealthy for an advisor-advisee relationship. Stannis is annoying, but he's free of these emotional entanglements.  He can see clearly in a way few around him can-- because 'love is the death of duty'; and Stannis puts 'duty' ahead of 'love'.  Which is something Ned is incapable of, despite all appearances to the contrary.

Ned was loyal but not a pushover

After the Rebellion ended Ned was disgusted by Robert's reaction to the death of the royal family. He left KL never to return. It took Robert a long and tiresome journey to the North to convince Ned to become hand of the king. As soon as the Northerner took the role he clashed with Robert on almost everything. He confronted Robert on Danny's assasination, he send an army against the Cleganes and he resigned from his post which caused the stag to lose his cool

Correct me if I am wrong but it wasn't Ned who nearly starved to death to keep a fort because Robert told him to do so. It wasn't Ned who was at the receiving end of Robert's fury after he failed an expedition that no living being could ever achieve (ie capturing the Targs in dragonstone) and it wasn't Cat Tully's cousin who ended up pregnant on Ned's wedding bed. 

Robert chose Ned as hand of the king because he had no options. Old Arryn was gone which meant that if KL is attacked there's no blood ties for the Northern coalition (Riverlands-North-Vale) to honour that would bail Robert out.Ned was married to Cat Tully a devoted wife whose brother would soon be LP of the Riverlands and whose nephew is Warden of the East. If Ned's life is in danger then an army of these 3 combined houses would come to the rescue. 

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Either that, or he just wanted to insult Stannis again. :leaving:

 

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Perhaps Stannis underestimated his value. He was tried and tested during the siege of Storms End. If I had to make the call I would rather have him at Dragonstone than Renly. Perhaps Robert understood that an invader would need to get by Stannis and Dragonstone before getting to Kings Landing.

Who is in charge of Dragonstone now? To many details for me to keep up with. Thanks.

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10 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Perhaps Stannis underestimated his value. 

What do you mean, that Stannis underestimated his own value as the Lord of Dragonstone?

Quote

 

Who is in charge of Dragonstone now? To many details for me to keep up with. Thanks.

I believe it was Ser Rolland Stone that was left behind as castellan.

Edited by Darkstream

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13 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

What do you mean, that Stannis underestimated his own value as the Lord of Dragonstone?

What I meant is that perhaps Stannis’ resentment clouded his judgment. That Robert put the best tried and tested brother on Dragonstone. To get to KL via sea ya gotta get past Dragonstone.

Perhaps Stannis underestimated his value. He was tried and tested during the siege of Storms End. If I had to make the call I would rather have him at Dragonstone than Renly. Perhaps Robert understood that an invader would need to get by Stannis and Dragonstone before getting to Kings Landing.

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Perhaps Stannis underestimated his value. He was tried and tested during the siege of Storms End. If I had to make the call I would rather have him at Dragonstone than Renly. Perhaps Robert understood that an invader would need to get by Stannis and Dragonstone before getting to Kings Landing.

 

Who is in charge of Dragonstone now? To many details for me to keep up with. Thanks.

Storm's End had never fallen to siege or force in the 8000 years. Stannis did what was expected.

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1 minute ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Storm's End had never fallen to siege or force in the 8000 years. Stannis did what was expected.

But how many sieges in the past 8000 years lasted as long as this one? Where the inhabitants where forced to eat rats and boots, and where keeping corpses on hand with the intent to eat them.

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4 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Stannis did what was expected.

That says something about his character. He held until relief came.

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27 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

What I meant is that perhaps Stannis’ resentment clouded his judgment. That Robert put the best tried and tested brother on Dragonstone. To get to KL via sea ya gotta get past Dragonstone.

Yeah, I must say, the debate on this thread has persuaded me that this is the case. Stannis took it as a slight as he was expecting to receive Storm's End, but it seems that having him on Dragonstone was the best tactical move.

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37 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

But how many sieges in the past 8000 years lasted as long as this one? Where the inhabitants where forced to eat rats and boots, and where keeping corpses on hand with the intent to eat them.

I'd imagine quite a few of them

 

36 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

That says something about his character. He held until relief came.

Which is shown by several dozen characters in the series.

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6 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I'd imagine quite a few of them

Thing is, we're discussing GRRM's imagination on this forum, not yours.

And whether what you imagine is correct or not, it doesn't diminish what Stannis had to endure through.

Edited by Darkstream

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Well, Stannis is Robert lawful heir. But that doesn't mean Stannis should not try to find compromise with Robb, Lysa and Robert Arryn or even Renly. Yeah, it sucked when Renly and Tyrells got idea to usurp the throne, although it doesn't mean it's theirs just because they want it and are willing to fight for it.

Edited by Lady Winter Rose

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13 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Thing is, we're discussing GRRM's imagination on this forum, not yours.

And whether what you imagine is correct or not, it doesn't diminish what Stannis had to endure through.

Yes and in GRRM's imagination, SE had never fallen to siege or force. Stannis was merely following the status quo. I don't have to use my imagination for that.

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22 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Yes and in GRRM's imagination, SE had never fallen to siege or force. Stannis was merely following the status quo. I don't have to use my imagination for that.

But that's not what you replied "I'd imagine quite a few of them" in response to is it?

And what's your point? Like I said, it doesn't diminish what Stannis had to endure through. His character, loyalty, and resolve was still proven, whether others in the past had experienced the same situations or not.

Edited by Darkstream

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