why does everyone blame Renly for Stannis's mistake

[Darkstream]

10 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Sorry, are you telling that Cersei murdered Jon Arryn? Because she didn't, she was a red herring. Lysa and Littlefinger did him in.

Well she did facilitate the attempted murder of Arryn, by Lysa, to be successful. So technically she was responsible for his murder.

[Universal Sword Donor]

13 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Well she did facilitate the attempted murder of Arryn, by Lysa, to be successful. So technically she was responsible for his murder.

How did she facilitate this? By making Jon Arryn trust his wife? Appointing LF to a position in KL so he could talk to Lysa in private?

[Darkstream]

Just now, Universal Sword Donor said:

How did she facilitate this? By making Jon Arryn trust his wife? Appointing LF to a position in KL so he could talk to Lysa in private?

No, by sending away the Maester that was treating him, and instructing Pycell to let him die.

[Universal Sword Donor]

4 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

No, by sending away the Maester that was treating him, and instructing Pycell to let him die.

That's, uh, a stretch.

“Yes,” he whimpered, “yes, Colemon was purging, so I sent him away. The queen needed Lord Arryn dead, she did not say so, could not, Varys was listening, always listening, but when I looked at her I knew.”

I guess one could read that as using facial expressions to convey one's desire to have Arryn die. I'd presume Pycelle would be a little less circumspect than that in a full confession to Tyrion on threat of pain and death.

[Minsc]

On 4/23/2017 at 2:56 PM, ravenous reader said:

If indeed he was too young and inexperienced to handle Dragonstone, it's a wonder that people still insist he was a suitable candidate to become King, let alone hold Storms End!

Because the age people are talking about him being too young and inexperienced to handle Dragonstone is immediately after Robert's Rebellion when he was still under 10.  Meanwhile, at the time he crowns himself he is 21 thus older than both Robert and Ned during the Rebellion.  He can hold Storm's End while being under 10 as the land is secure enough to rely a castellan to act as regent until he comes of age.

[ravenous reader]

On 4/23/2017 at 5:25 PM, Darkstream said:

Did he know that Renly was gay, and would fall in love with Loras? The only reason that Renly was tight with the Tyrrell's. 

That was Robert's master stroke!   

17 hours ago, devilish said:

time and time again Robert showed great coolness and pragmatism in handling things. On one hand he refused to punish Jamie for assaulting Ned. On the other hand he refused to send an army to rescue the imp when he was kidnapped by Cat.

I'm glad we're finally discussing what matters, which is neither Stannis nor Renly.  The rot started with Robert.  

This lack of decisive action on Robert's part which you've highlighted has another interpretation to the one you've proffered.  Viewed through less rosy-tinted lenses, it's called being passive, permissive, placating, and pussy-whipped.  Note that in the two cases you've chosen to illustrate his extraordinary political finesse, the courses of action he ended up pursuing would have been what Cersei and Tywin would have wanted him to do -- namely, let Jaime off the hook for all misdemeanors; and abandon Tyrion in the hopes that someone would do the job of getting rid of him for them, so they wouldn't have to suffer the taint of kinslaying.  Yes, Robert knew his place in that hierarchy.  The lion would roar and then he'd squeak like a mouse and do his duty -- pigheaded, with sullen resentful leaden eyes, and perhaps Cersei would receive a florid hematoma or two in his emasculated frustration after he was sufficiently inebriated; but nevertheless he would put his head down and do his duty.  Because that's what 'political savvy' is, isn't it, acquiescing in all things to Lord Tywin and his daughter, since without pleasing those two touchy malignant narcissists you risk losing the kingdom?

What you call remarkable political insight, I call carelessness (that legendary 'careless generosity').  What you call restraint, I call disengagement.  What you would call 'fair-handedness,' I call bad faith.  He's not 'cool' -- he's avoidant (until he explodes and hits someone).  He's not 'pragmatic' -- he does what's expedient for himself in any instance, without giving much thought to the implications for other people and long-term consequences for the kingdom.  It's a very short-sighted approach, it's cowardly, and in the end it caught up with him.   

What's more, GRRM agrees with my disdain for Robert's character.  Not only did he model this drunken paragon after his father with whom he had a strained relationship, he shows what he thinks of the character by giving him a particularly ignominious death, rotting from the inside out, stewing in the stinking juices of his own vices. Ned almost gags at the bedside before lying to him, because he has no faith in Robert's ability (nor perhaps his own) to stomach the truth -- and more importantly to face his own death and life like a man.  What an indictment!  'Something is rotten in the state of Denmark...'

Robert surrounded himself with rot; he ignored and tolerated the rot; he let it fester in his midst, all the while making excuses for his own part in fostering the corruption -- and in the end, he died in his own rot.

The war with the Lannisters was inevitable. Sooner or later, someone would have to stand up to them.  I blame Robert Baratheon for not waging it earlier.  Despite ostensibly winning the war, he in actual fact lost the war when he condoned the murder of the Targaryen children as the price for becoming King.  Thereafter, he became a slave to the Lannisters.  And most of his subsequent actions can be extrapolated from that vantage point.   Perhaps these dubious ethical compromises were the only practical way to become King and assure the viability of his power; yet it's certainly not admirable.

[devilish]

@Darkstream

Part A

You’re underestimated the extremely serious slights the two houses had been inflicting to one another. Lets make a quick list of them

a-      The crown prince get assaulted by one of Lord Ned’s direwolves (a direwolf is around twice the size of a common wild wolf)

b-      Cat Tully kidnaps Cersei’s brother, accusing him of a very serious crime and then she takes him to the Vale (rather than KL) to be executed erm judged

c-       Jamie assaults and wounds Ned then flee

d-      Ned sends an army to capture Gregor Clegane and orders Tywin to come to KL to answer for his knight’s crime or else be judged as a traitor

Those actions alone could easily lead to a civil war. Yet Robert was able to calm tempers down. Things went south very quickly only when Ned dropped the mother of all threats right on Cersei’s laps without first informing Robert. Ned’s irresponsible action caused the king’s death

Regarding Cersei, I am not her biggest fan (read my previous posts). However, till Robert’s death the biggest slight (I repeat slight not crime, Jamie’s attempted murder is not a slight) wasn’t done by her but by Cat. How dare did she kidnapped the Warden of the West’s son and heir? Why didn’t she ask for the King’s justice instead of taking him to the Vale?  Kings are meant to judge between LPs and Wardens and the Vale had nothing to do with what happened to Bran Stark. Neither Bran nor Tyrion were from the Vale and the crime wasn’t committed at the Vale. He must thank her gods that Lysa is cuckoo because a true Lord would have sent them both packing on the first ship to KL.

Part B

Well, Tytos was able to give land and titles to the Cleganes so I presume that Tywin could have done the same with his own brother, especially after the Reynes were crushed. Instead Castamere was left vacant until it was given to a Spicer.  Also after the war of 5 kings, Slynt and LF took control of Harrenhal, Emmon Frey was given Riverrun and even Lancel Lannister (Kevan’s son) ended up with a castle (Darry). Kevan was kept landless. You don’t hear him bitching about it right?

Not to forget that there are other ways to honour a second son. Robert’s small council was stocked with low born lackeys and his KG was one of the weakest in Westerosi history. Surely, Robert could find a title or some land to give to Benjen if Ned asked nicely.  You don’t hear Benjen bitching about it right?

Robert didn’t only given Dragonstone to Stannis which at first value was an incredible generous offer but he also allowed him to retain the land even after he wasn’t his heir anymore. That’s an offer which go beyond to what the Targs did. Having said that, I believe that is not the correct way to see things. If you ask me, we should have a look at the dates

277 AC- Renly is born
283 AC- Robert rebellion is won
284 AC – House Baratheon of Dragonstone was formed.
286 AC – Joffrey is born
286-287 AC - Stannis marries Selyse. Robert gatecrashed the wedding by sleeping with Selsye’s cousin on Stannis wedding bed.
293 AC – Renly starts his tour as LP of Stormlands

Dragonstone was the Targ’s ancestral home and if they ever regained that stronghold then Targ loyalists would have to take them seriously. Therefore it was within Baratheon interest to send one of their own there, ideally with great experience in terms of resisting a siege. You can’t ask that from a 7 year old Renly can you?

Also I doubt that Robert promised the Stormlands to a 7 year old Renly either. Even if he did, he could easily retract it and give it to Stannis if he wanted. If he did so he would be backed by a legal framework to do so

a-      Dragonstone is reserved to the King’s heir. After 286 AC, Stannis was not Robert’s heir anymore

b-      Lands and titles can be given/retracted by either the King or the LP of the region. Robert was both

c-       Renly couldn’t become LP of the Stormlands until he’s of age. (Lysa for example is regent). If Robert retracted the offer, then there was no title to strip in the first place

So what’s my conclusion

a-      Robert granted Dragonstone to Stannis was neither generous nor meant to be a slight. It made military sense. Robert appointed a loyal and military experienced general in a sensitive part of his kingdom. Stannis on the other hand benefited out of it because he became Lord + he was finally free from his older brother’s shackles.

b-      Stannis used his freedom  to marry a Florent and send those who nearly starved him to death into panic.The King's appointed heir (he was also given dragonstone) married someone whose family had an equal claim to the Reach. That might be an insignificant threat in today's standard but at a time where people died like flies through to illnesses and were nepotism ruled supreme that was a big big threat indeed. 

c-       Robert took Stannis marriage very badly. The man was a womaniser and a drunk but he knew when to keep it in his pants as shown when he visited Ned in Winterfell. What he did to Stannis was brutal, well planned (he didn’t feck a random girl but a Florent with equal hereditary rights to Selyse) and meant to drive a well-defined message to his brother ie your marriage is worthless for the greater political scheme, in matter of fact I was able to feck a woman with similar standing as your wife right on your wedding bed.

d-      At that point Robert’s effort was spent not to antagonise the Tyrells even further. Renly was given the LP of the Stormlands with strict instructions to become the Tyrells best mate. 

[Darkstream]

 

@devilish

Ok, so a lot of the instances you are referring to are much after the fact, and really have nothing to do with whether awarding Storm's End to Renly was intended as a slight to Stannis by Robert. I understand that you are attempting to establish a precedent of Robert making intelligent diplomatic decisions, however I would argue that, although what you propose makes a lot of sense in hindsight and from our perspective as readers, is purely speculative in regards to whether this was Robert's thought process, as well, quite debatable considering the information we have, and the outcome of many of these scenarios. I think @ravenous reader said it best, and far better than I could.

"What you call remarkable political insight, I call carelessness (that legendary 'careless generosity').  What you call restraint, I call disengagement.  What you would call 'fair-handedness,' I call bad faith.  He's not 'cool' -- he's avoidant (until he explodes and hits someone).  He's not 'pragmatic' -- he does what's expedient for himself in any instance, without giving much thought to the implications for other people and long-term consequences for the kingdom.  It's a very short-sighted approach, it's cowardly, and in the end it caught up with him."  

-----

Now to the matter at hand. I think a lot of the arguments here are being made with assumption that the decisions being made by Robert having legitimate reasoning and purpose, needs to be mutually exclusive of him intending to slight Stannis. Can it not be both?

So sure, I except the reasoning given for Robert wanting Stannis on Dragonstone. However, you cannot tell me that Stannis was the only person in the Seven Kingdoms qualified to hold Storm's End. Robert could have easily found someone else deserving and qualified to give this seat to.

Also, I keep hearing the argument that Stannis was a second son, and therefore is lucky to get anything at all. Yet this point gets thrown out the window when referring to Renly. Why is it that a third son is receiving such a prestigious seat, instead of being shipped off to the Wall? To use this argument against Stannis' rights to Storm's End is quite condradictory considering who did get the seat.

We have all of these arguments attempting to show the legitimacy of Robert's decision, however none of them - whether you accept the validity of them or not - can be used to dismiss that Robert intended to insult Stannis. Like I said, these need not be mutually exclusive.

So, taking into account that - (1) if Robert is as wise and as adept at diplomatic relations as is being argued, he should know that Stannis would take this as a slight. (2) It is known that the relationship between the two is strained, and that Robert prefers Renly over Stannis. (3) Robert's decision to give Renly Storm's End is not only not warranted, as Renly is only a third son, but would fly in the face of the traditional customs of Westeros by denying the seat to the elder sibling. - it is quite obvious that Robert indeed intended this as an insult to Stannis.

 

[Darkstream]

I would add; The only argument I would consider giving validity to that this wasn't intended as a slight, is that Robert was too ignorant and self-absorbed to realize that this in fact was an insult.

Although I don't buy that either. I think Robert found a suitable way to do things, that also allowed him to slight Stannis, and give Storm's End to Renly, the brother that he preferred, and wanted to have their ancestral seat over Stannis. That is a slight, no matter how you spin it or justify it.

[Darkstream]

21 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

That's, uh, a stretch.

“Yes,” he whimpered, “yes, Colemon was purging, so I sent him away. The queen needed Lord Arryn dead, she did not say so, could not, Varys was listening, always listening, but when I looked at her I knew.”

I guess one could read that as using facial expressions to convey one's desire to have Arryn die. I'd presume Pycelle would be a little less circumspect than that in a full confession to Tyrion on threat of pain and death.

I'm going to say that you denying this conclusion is quite the streeetch, especially coming from someone who was just preaching this to me:

"There's also nothing that says that Aegon the Conqueror didn't have three arms. Some things can be reasonably be extrapolated from canon and semi-canon text."

[ravenous reader]

1 hour ago, Darkstream said:

Ok, so a lot of the instances you are referring to are much after the fact, and really have nothing to do with whether awarding Storm's End to Renly was intended as a slight to Stannis by Robert. I understand that you are attempting to establish a precedent of Robert making intelligent diplomatic decisions, however I would argue that, although what you propose makes a lot of sense in hindsight and from our perspective as readers, is purely speculative in regards to whether this was Robert's thought process, as well, quite debatable considering the information we have, and the outcome of many of these scenarios.

I quite agree, we may be in hindsight imputing intelligence and diplomacy to Robert's actions where there actually wasn't any to begin with.  I mean, for example @devilish's repeated assertion of Robert's astute meta-commentary on Stannis's ill-advised marriage to a Florent, by having sex with a Florent on Stannis's bed during the wedding ceremony.  Acerbic meta-commentary of this sort is more appropriately the domain of someone like Littlefinger or Tywin who get their kicks out of little sadistic poetic flourishes such as these.  Robert, in contrast, was neither sadistic nor poetic.  Also, he was more liable to behave impulsively than in a premeditated fashion, especially when it came to sex.  I'm more likely to believe that Robert was just drunk and horny and felt like a tumble with the nearest juicy peach from the Reach, with scant regard for how that might affect his hosts' sensibilities!

To my mind, Robert's greatest shortcoming and/or tragedy was his failure to inspire confidence in his leadership in others, to the extent that people around him who should have been trusted confidantes repeatedly lied to him rather than tell him the truth for fear of how he would take hearing it, and the potential emotional backlash that might fall on the messenger.  People like Ned and Stannis, for example, shied away from telling him their suspicions directly about the paternity of his three golden-haired wonders -- was Robert really that daft not to notice how jarring those blonde heads were in contrast to his raven-haired bastards?  So, because Ned and Stannis failed in their duty to inform the king in full and timeously, we'll never know how Robert may have reacted.  To be fair to Robert, you can only be as intelligent as the quality of the intelligence you're receiving.

[Darkstream]

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

To my mind, Robert's greatest shortcoming and/or tragedy was his failure to inspire confidence in his leadership in others, to the extent that people around him who should have been trusted confidantes repeatedly lied to him rather than tell him the truth for fear of how he would take hearing it, and the potential emotional backlash that might fall on the messenger.  

Excellent point. 

Contrary to the argument being made on this thread, Stannis did attempt to do something about the situation. He brought this to the attention of Jon Arryn, and was helping in the investigation. Bringing these accusations to Robert without proof would have been considered treason, and no doubt Cercei would have had done to Stannis as she had done to Lady.  

Not only did Stannis know the response he would have received from his dearly beloved brother, he also knew that his accusations would have been self-serving; He needed proof before he could go to Robert. And as Arryn was murdered, and Robert skipped town, he felt he had no other option but to flee to the safety of Dragonstone.

[Prof. Cecily]

21 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

That's, uh, a stretch.

“Yes,” he whimpered, “yes, Colemon was purging, so I sent him away. The queen needed Lord Arryn dead, she did not say so, could not, Varys was listening, always listening, but when I looked at her I knew.”

I guess one could read that as using facial expressions to convey one's desire to have Arryn die. I'd presume Pycelle would be a little less circumspect than that in a full confession to Tyrion on threat of pain and death.

Ay, Pycelle.

One hardly knows what to make of Pycelle.

[Darkstream]

32 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Ay, Pycelle.

One hardly knows what to make of Pycelle.

Not really. He's a slimy, perverted, corrupt lacky of the Lanisters, who's loyalty only goes so far as it serves his own interests, and self preservation.

[Prof. Cecily]

14 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Not really. He's a slimy, perverted, corrupt lacky of the Lanisters, who's loyalty only goes so far as it serves his own interests, and self preservation.

Oh, Darkstream, you've caught me out trying to be charitable. Never mind, it won´t happen again.

[ravenous reader]

1 hour ago, Darkstream said:

Excellent point. 

Contrary to the argument being made on this thread, Stannis did attempt to do something about the situation. He brought this to the attention of Jon Arryn, and was helping in the investigation. Bringing these accusations to Robert without proof would have been considered treason, and no doubt Cercei would have had done to Stannis as she had done to Lady.  

Not only did Stannis know the response he would have received from his dearly beloved brother, he also knew that his accusations would have been self-serving; He needed proof before he could go to Robert.

I actually think (speculatively, now ) that Robert kind of knew his kids weren't really his, so I'm not sure what he would have 'done' anyway.  The subsequent denial and aversion to confrontation would only fit with his avoidant personality.  As I and many others have indicated, Robert relied 'pragmatically' on Lord Tywin's financial generosity, military might, and general forbearance (the granting of which was of course contingent on Robert's continued compliance) to prop up his kingship in so many ways.  He was deeply indebted to that family, having 'made a deal with the devil', so he was not about to upset the apple cart by throwing the legitimacy of his children, and therefore his rule potentially, into question.  Robert preferred languishing in the status quo, even if it was a rotten situation -- it's the reason so many on this thread have mistaken his avoidance for good judgment, and complacency for stability.

The following account is very indicative of the way Robert operates  (for the record, it's not just about a mingy direwolf -- 'Lady' is a metaphor!):

Quote

Ned could see Arya tense in Jory's arms. Jory spoke up quickly. "We found no trace of the direwolf, Your Grace."

Robert did not look unhappy. "No? So be it."

The queen raised her voice. "A hundred golden dragons to the man who brings me its skin!"

"A costly pelt," Robert grumbled. "I want no part of this, woman. You can damn well buy your furs with Lannister gold."

The queen regarded him coolly. "I had not thought you so niggardly. The king I'd thought to wed would have laid a wolfskin across my bed before the sun went down."

Robert's face darkened with anger. "That would be a fine trick, without a wolf."

"We have a wolf," Cersei Lannister said. Her voice was very quiet, but her green eyes shone with triumph.

It took them all a moment to comprehend her words, but when they did, the king shrugged irritably. "As you will. Have Ser Ilyn see to it."

"Robert, you cannot mean this," Ned protested.

The king was in no mood for more argument. "Enough, Ned, I will hear no more. A direwolf is a savage beast. Sooner or later it would have turned on your girl the same way the other did on my son. Get her a dog, she'll be happier for it."

Later on, in a rare moment of candour, he admits to Ned that he'd always strongly suspected Joffrey to have been in the wrong, specifically knowing him to be a bully and a liar, and that he correspondingly regretted having harmed the direwolf and traumatized Sansa; so this argument as presented here focusing on the appropriacy of house pets is only framed for his own convenience (i.e. in order to get Cersei off his back, and therefore placate Tywin -- the overarching principle).

Quote

That was when Sansa finally seemed to comprehend. Her eyes were frightened as they went to her father. "He doesn't mean Lady, does he?" She saw the truth on his face. "No," she said. "No, not Lady, Lady didn't bite anybody, she's good . . . "

"Lady wasn't there," Arya shouted angrily. "You leave her alone!"

"Stop them," Sansa pleaded, "don't let them do it, please, please, it wasn't Lady, it was Nymeria, Arya did it, you can't, it wasn't Lady, don't let them hurt Lady, I'll make her be good, I promise, I promise . . . " She started to cry.

All Ned could do was take her in his arms and hold her while she wept. He looked across the room at Robert. His old friend, closer than any brother. "Please, Robert. For the love you bear me. For the love you bore my sister. Please."

Even Robert's so-called 'love' for his 'dear brother' Ned or his 'great love' Lyanna was worth nothing...(I suppose Robert's champions would call it emblematic of his supreme impartiality and rejection of nepotism in matters of governance!)

Quote

The king looked at them for a long moment, then turned his eyes on his wife. "Damn you, Cersei," he said with loathing.

Utter capitulation.  Shifting the blame.

Jaime's last look was also to Cersei, and also similarly filled with 'loathing', as if any amount of (self-)loathing would sweeten the action to follow-- before he got the go-ahead from her to toss Bran out the window!

Quote

Ned stood, gently disengaging himself from Sansa's grasp. All the weariness of the past four days had returned to him. "Do it yourself then, Robert," he said in a voice cold and sharp as steel. "At least have the courage to do it yourself."

Ned here is the 'true steel' rather than Robert -- who is revealed in actual fact to be a worthless metal...'lead'!

Quote

Robert looked at Ned with flat, dead eyes and left without a word, his footsteps heavy as lead. Silence filled the hall.

He abdicates the responsibility of adjudicating.  It's too much for him.  He'd rather be left in peace.  So, in effect, he leaves it up to Cersei, departing the throne room a defeated man:

Quote

"Where is the direwolf?" Cersei Lannister asked when her husband was gone. Beside her, Prince Joffrey was smiling.

This is how Robert made all his decisions that didn't involve physical hammering of one sort or another -- i.e. 'decision' by default -- and not only when faced with resistance from Cersei.  

 

[Darkstream]

19 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Oh, Darkstream, you've caught me out trying to be charitable. Never mind, it won´t happen again.

Ha, well one can never be sure with some of the comments made in sincerity on these forums.

Besides, I can never resit the urge to share my disdain for Pycelle.

[ravenous reader]

12 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Oh, Darkstream, you've caught me out trying to be charitable. Never mind, it won´t happen again.

We are in no mood for irony on this thread Prof!  If you're looking for 'charitability', I'm afraid popping in on a titanic debate on who was the lesser of the evils among the Baratheon bros is not the right place!

[Universal Sword Donor]

3 hours ago, Darkstream said:

I'm going to say that you denying this conclusion is quite the streeetch, especially coming from someone who was just preaching this to me:

"There's also nothing that says that Aegon the Conqueror didn't have three arms. Some things can be reasonably be extrapolated from canon and semi-canon text."

No doubt she wanted him dead, but Pycelle says he deduced it from her reactions, not a silent command. We also have Cersei's POV when she thinks about him dying. Guess what, she never thinks she signaled or told Pycelle he needed to die. She thinks about murdering Robert and his brothers but doesn't mention Jon's death and her desire to see him killed. So yes, some things can reasonably be extrapolated from the text. This is not one of them.

For reference:

“She wanted to slap him again for that. I must have been mad to think he could be Hand. She would sooner abolish the office. When had a Hand ever brought her anything but grief? Jon Arryn put Robert Baratheon in her bed, and before he died he’d begun sniffing about her and Jaime as well. Eddard Stark took up right where Arryn had left off; his meddling had forced her to rid herself of Robert sooner than she would have liked, before she could deal with his pestilential brothers. Tyrion sold Myrcella to the Dornishmen, made one of her sons his hostage, and murdered the other. And when Lord Tywin returned to King’s Landing . . ."

2 hours ago, Darkstream said:

Excellent point. 

Contrary to the argument being made on this thread, Stannis did attempt to do something about the situation. He brought this to the attention of Jon Arryn, and was helping in the investigation. Bringing these accusations to Robert without proof would have been considered treason, and no doubt Cercei would have had done to Stannis as she had done to Lady.  

Not only did Stannis know the response he would have received from his dearly beloved brother, he also knew that his accusations would have been self-serving; He needed proof before he could go to Robert. And as Arryn was murdered, and Robert skipped town, he felt he had no other option but to flee to the safety of Dragonstone.

He did bring it to Jon Arryn. That was the smart play. Then when Jon Arryn was murdered (by Lysa) he should have told Ned. He did not. He stayed behind and raised an army and hired mercenaries well before Robert died. Nothing was stopping him from coming to KL in relative force or summoning Ned to DS for a meeting. A trip there and back would take a week. Once again a baffling decision given that Ned would have been believed like Jon and Ned was planning on bringing it to Robert before he died, with Stannis standing to receive reward for his leal service and become heir to the throne again. Stannis has literal months to do this and does nothing with it. His safety is definitely something to be wary of, but he if he has the means and authority to assemble an army while the king still lives, I think he can show up to KL to talk with Ned.

[Darkstream]

@ravenous reader

I whole heartedly concur with the entirety of your post, with one exception. I must take issue with your use of the adjective mingy, when referring to any of the faithfully loyal and noble direwolves. I understand the point that you're making, but I'm sorry, I just can't except that.