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why does everyone blame Renly for Stannis's mistake


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On 23.4.2017 at 6:40 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Not enough people to support him

He can claim to be a king, but unless an appropriate number of other people accept him as king, it is kind of a moot point

A king isn't made a king by popular vote, that's not how this kind of succession works. It's a matter of inheritance first and foremost. 

If we argue that you need power to be king, Stannis is still in the right since he defeated Renly and is the only of the five kings still alive and kicking, still gaining allies and victories. 

On 23.4.2017 at 7:28 PM, khal drogon said:

1. Who? Nobody who mattered supported his claim. 

2. Next in line could make him king only if others recognize him as a king. Either Stannis should have made a strong case to present himself as the rightful heir. Till that becomes successful nobody is going to care about his claim because others doubts his claim itself.

1. See above. 

2. What others? There were five kings in the realm, none of them could claim support of all the realm. And Stannis actually made a strong case to present himself as the rightful heir, he claimed (rightly so) that Cersei's kids weren't Robert's, so he was next in line. People didn't support him because he wasn't popular enough, but it was a strong claim nonetheless, and we see that it stuck because by now the incest idea is popular and got repeated by a lot of characters throughout the books. 

You know who didn't make a strong case? Renly. He only pointed to his soldiers. By that right, the Slavers of Astapor could claim the throne of Westeros for themselves.

 

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5 hours ago, John Doe said:

A king isn't made a king by popular vote, that's not how this kind of succession works. It's a matter of inheritance first and foremost. 

If we argue that you need power to be king, Stannis is still in the right since he defeated Renly and is the only of the five kings still alive and kicking, still gaining allies and victories. 

 

If we argue power is needed, then Stannis *still* isn't the king. He has no power base in the south, hasn't achieved any military success outside of a small victory over a few IB in the north, and hasn't even seen the IT in years. No one here disagrees that Stannis is the rightful heir, but Stannis is no more a king than Viserys was a king.

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14 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

If we argue power is needed, then Stannis *still* isn't the king. He has no power base in the south, hasn't achieved any military success outside of a small victory over a few IB in the north, and hasn't even seen the IT in years. No one here disagrees that Stannis is the rightful heir, but Stannis is no more a king than Viserys was a king.

Stannis has people actually following him, your comparison with Viserys is laughable. Stannis has more than five thousand people willing to fight for his claim and now and alliance with the Iron Bank, Tommen is maybe slightly more powerful, but with the Ironmen and Aegon attacking, he won't be for long. And again, if you need all the realm under your control, noone can call themselves king right now. 

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15 hours ago, John Doe said:

Stannis has people actually following him, your comparison with Viserys is laughable. Stannis has more than five thousand people willing to fight for his claim and now and alliance with the Iron Bank, Tommen is maybe slightly more powerful, but with the Ironmen and Aegon attacking, he won't be for long. And again, if you need all the realm under your control, noone can call themselves king right now. 

People follow lords too. I guess Stannis is king of the mountain clans and ~1300 followers at this point. Tommen is far more powerful, has the IT, and has 5 of 7 regions at least acknowledging him and an additional one is contested. 

Where Westerosi are concerned, the only actual kings so far have been Joffrey and Tommen. No one has proven their illegitimacy. After all, succession and inheritance are first and foremost, at least according to you, and Stannis could not and did not make a strong claim that he was the legitimate heir, even if he is. Most of his followers came *after* he murdered his brother, who had far more followers from a larger geographic area, and abandoned him just as quickly. 

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1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

People follow lords too. I guess Stannis is king of the mountain clans and ~1300 followers at this point. Tommen is far more powerful, has the IT, and has 5 of 7 regions at least acknowledging him and an additional one is contested. 

Where Westerosi are concerned, the only actual kings so far have been Joffrey and Tommen. No one has proven their illegitimacy. After all, succession and inheritance are first and foremost, at least according to you, and Stannis could not and did not make a strong claim that he was the legitimate heir, even if he is. Most of his followers came *after* he murdered his brother, who had far more followers from a larger geographic area, and abandoned him just as quickly. 

This still does not prove how Renly made any kind of strong claim. Stannis made a strong claim when he argued that Robert's sons were bastards. Renly just pointed to his army. 

 

Renly only had most of his followers because Loras was his buddy and Mace was desperate to see his daughter crowned. 

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1 hour ago, John Doe said:

This still does not prove how Renly made any kind of strong claim. Stannis made a strong claim when he argued that Robert's sons were bastards. Renly just pointed to his army. 

How was Stannis' claim strong? He didnt offer any evidence, he didnt make the claim when Robert was still alive. He only annoucned this 'truth' months after Robert was dead. 

That is not a strong claim, it is an incredibly weak one with little credibility beyond an uncle wanting to usurp the Throne. 

1 hour ago, John Doe said:

 

Renly only had most of his followers because Loras was his buddy and Mace was desperate to see his daughter crowned. 

Where is that claimed? We see that Renly was incrediably popular in his own right, not just because of being friends with Loras. 

Quote

"If that is so, why is the Knight of Flowers not among you? And where is Mathis Rowan? Randyll Tarly? Lady Oakheart? Why are they not here in your company, they who loved Renly best? Where is Brienne of Tarth, I ask you?"

 

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1 hour ago, John Doe said:

This still does not prove how Renly made any kind of strong claim. Stannis made a strong claim when he argued that Robert's sons were bastards. Renly just pointed to his army. 

 

Renly only had most of his followers because Loras was his buddy and Mace was desperate to see his daughter crowned. 

Stannis wanted so badly to make a strong claim, yet his claims were discussed with the same level of seriousness as the rumor of patchface cuckolding him. Even Davos doesn't think people believe Stannis. Robb himself points out that Stannis (and Renly) comes after Tommen and Joffrey.

Renly's claim was no worse than Robert's when he was fighting in RR. Gather friends, win enough battles, and suddenly your claim looks a lot stronger. The only real difference is Renly had more men with fewer eligible bachelors to marry off. If he'd have gotten a hold of Rob, it might well have been more.

And as to Renly's popularity being solely due to Loras and Mace's "desperation", the small folk loved Renly, as we see both through Davos' POV and Sansa's POV. He's noted as popular in the court and easily wins friends through charisma like Robert.

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Kings are made by acclamation. If more people wanted Renly so he had every single right to do so. In the Westerosi politics we know that heritage comes first but IRL acclamation is what make a king. Renly could be the one to change that, with his power and imense support (reach and some other houses) he had more than enough support and military power to take the IT. Stannis didn't have these. He needed more power and support. That's why he resorts to assassinate his brother with black magic and didn't try to fight for more support.

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15 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Stannis wanted so badly to make a strong claim, yet his claims were discussed with the same level of seriousness as the rumor of patchface cuckolding him. Even Davos doesn't think people believe Stannis. Robb himself points out that Stannis (and Renly) comes after Tommen and Joffrey.

Renly's claim was no worse than Robert's when he was fighting in RR. Gather friends, win enough battles, and suddenly your claim looks a lot stronger. The only real difference is Renly had more men with fewer eligible bachelors to marry off. If he'd have gotten a hold of Rob, it might well have been more.

And as to Renly's popularity being solely due to Loras and Mace's "desperation", the small folk loved Renly, as we see both through Davos' POV and Sansa's POV. He's noted as popular in the court and easily wins friends through charisma like Robert.

Wrong. Stannis claim is explicitly mentioned to be the better one.

Quote

"Tommen is no less a Lannister," Ser Marq Piper snapped.

"As you say," said Robb, troubled. "Yet if neither one is king, still, how could it be Lord Renly? He's Robert's younger brother. Bran can't be Lord of Winterfell before me, and Renly can't be king before Lord Stannis."

Lady Mormont agreed. "Lord Stannis has the better claim."

(...)

That is what we shall win if we join with King Renly. What does Lord Stannis have against that, that we should cast it all aside?"

"The right," said Robb stubbornly. Catelyn thought he sounded eerily like his father as he said it.

And do you have a quote that proves that Renly was popular with the smallfolk?

 

16 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

How was Stannis' claim strong? He didnt offer any evidence, he didnt make the claim when Robert was still alive. He only annoucned this 'truth' months after Robert was dead. 

That is not a strong claim, it is an incredibly weak one with little credibility beyond an uncle wanting to usurp the Throne. 

Where is that claimed? We see that Renly was incrediably popular in his own right, not just because of being friends with Loras. 

 

You don't need to put truth in quotes, we know it is the truth. 

Also, what evidene do you expect? There are no gene tests available in Westeros. What we do know is that they are the only Baratheon/Lannister kids with yellow hair, and we know about several suspicios deaths surrounding at court. 

The claim is strong because, whether you believe his evidence or not, Stannis presents the realm with a narrative that makes him king. Renly fails to do even that. It's the difference between saying you killed someone in self defense vs saying you killed him out of boredom at a trial, even without undisputable evidence one is clearly the stronger argument. So it is fair to blame Renly for his mistake, because one clearly cared more about the law of the realm than the other. 

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1 hour ago, John Doe said:

Wrong. Stannis claim is explicitly mentioned to be the better one.

And do you have a quote that proves that Renly was popular with the smallfolk?

 

You don't need to put truth in quotes, we know it is the truth. 

Also, what evidene do you expect? There are no gene tests available in Westeros. What we do know is that they are the only Baratheon/Lannister kids with yellow hair, and we know about several suspicios deaths surrounding at court. 

The claim is strong because, whether you believe his evidence or not, Stannis presents the realm with a narrative that makes him king. Renly fails to do even that. It's the difference between saying you killed someone in self defense vs saying you killed him out of boredom at a trial, even without undisputable evidence one is clearly the stronger argument. So it is fair to blame Renly for his mistake, because one clearly cared more about the law of the realm than the other.  

Renly did provide an argument. He will get rid of the Lannisters and he had the most power to do so. He tried to do it Robert's way. That is unpopular rulers, more personal popularity, less claim to the throne. He tried to usurp the same way Robert usurped the throne.

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1 hour ago, John Doe said:

 

And do you have a quote that proves that Renly was popular with the smallfolk?

It is pointed out by both Tyrion and Sansa how popular Renly is with the commons. https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=renly+commons

as well as Davos https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=They+grieve.+Your+brother+was+well+loved."&povs[]=Davos

 

1 hour ago, John Doe said:

 

You don't need to put truth in quotes, we know it is the truth. 

We know it is the truth, the people of Westeros don't. It sounds very, very opportunistic. 

1 hour ago, John Doe said:

Also, what evidene do you expect? There are no gene tests available in Westeros.

I'm just pointing out a fact that Stannis offers no evidence for his claim they are bastards. 

1 hour ago, John Doe said:

 

What we do know is that they are the only Baratheon/Lannister kids with yellow hair,

They have not suddenly sprouted blonde hair. There father had known about his children's blonde hair the since they were born and still recognised them as their children, as did the realm at large. 

Them having blonde hair was not a problem when Robert was alive why should it be so now?

1 hour ago, John Doe said:

 

and we know about several suspicios deaths surrounding at court. 

We do, the realm does not. Jon Arryn was an 80 year old man in a medieval world. Robert died hunting, with both Kingsguard and subjects with him.

1 hour ago, John Doe said:

The claim is strong because, whether you believe his evidence or not, Stannis presents the realm with a narrative that makes him king.

The claim in incredibly weak. It being true does not make it any stronger as it sounds suspicious and opportunistic with Stannis offering no evidence to the realm nor did he offer this information to the his brother the King while he was alive. 

 

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2 hours ago, John Doe said:

Wrong. Stannis claim is explicitly mentioned to be the better one.

And do you have a quote that proves that Renly was popular with the smallfolk?

You don't need to put truth in quotes, we know it is the truth. 

Also, what evidene do you expect? There are no gene tests available in Westeros. What we do know is that they are the only Baratheon/Lannister kids with yellow hair, and we know about several suspicios deaths surrounding at court. 

The claim is strong because, whether you believe his evidence or not, Stannis presents the realm with a narrative that makes him king. Renly fails to do even that. It's the difference between saying you killed someone in self defense vs saying you killed him out of boredom at a trial, even without undisputable evidence one is clearly the stronger argument. So it is fair to blame Renly for his mistake, because one clearly cared more about the law of the realm than the other. 

Stannis' claim is better IF and only IF the three children on the throne are proven illegitimate. He can't. Ergo it isn't. So yes he doesn't put together a good claim for kingship based on Robb's word, as I said.

Now Stannis' proximity to the throne is better for a claim on the kingship, but everyone puts this forward ignores that Renly is claiming the throne over all 4 rather than just Stannis. Skipping one hardly matters if you're usurping the throne over four.

“When Lord Renly climbed to his feet, the commons cheered wildly, for King Robert’s handsome young brother was a great favorite. He handed the broken tine to his conqueror with a gracious bow. The Hound snorted and tossed the broken antler into the crowd, where the commons began to punch and claw over the little bit of gold, until Lord Renly walked out among them and restored the peace. ”

“He fell silent for a moment, brooding on his plans for justice. And then, abruptly, he said, “What do the smallfolk say of Renly’s death?”
“They grieve. Your brother was well loved.”

And the issue with that evidence is that it is no evidence, and Ned "confessing"only reinforces that Joffrey is indeed the rightful king. So one guy who died was an old man, a perpetually drunk king died drunk in a hunting accident, and the other guy was executed for treason. We don't have Robert declaring them bastards. There is no trial touching on their legitimacy until well after Stannis has basically lost all hope of ever winning the throne -- I always assumed his character evolution upward and his power base waning was a reverse trope that Martin loves so much. He lacks Edric Storm, the acknowledged bastard, to show that al least one of the Lannister children is no Baratheon. He doesn't even quote the Book Ned and Arryn were looking at. That's why Stannis' declaration to the world is treated as seriously by the people as the rumor that patchface is shireen's dad. Not one person has ever disputed that Stannis' claim was the best in a vacuum. We are saying that merely amongst the Westerosi it wasn't close nor particularly believed.

Renly didn't care about the law because he observed the legal ruler on the throne and his regent wanting to murder him, which is funny given your comparison to self-defense. He says this to Ned and repeats it to Catelyn. Had Stannis bothered to communicate with Renly or literally anyone before Renly crowned himself, things might have been greatly different. He realizes this himself when he's at the Wall:

“Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne.”

Now to be fair he was talking about fighting the Others at the wall, but the easiest way to save the kingdom given how things played out was to.....ally with Renly and Robb.

edit: forgot to include Robert's death as suspicious as Bernie pointed out

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1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Stannis' claim is better IF and only IF the three children on the throne are proven illegitimate. He can't. Ergo it isn't. So yes he doesn't put together a good claim for kingship based on Robb's word, as I said.

Honestly, I'm not sure what the point of this discussion is. What are you trying to argue or prove?

The facts are that Stannis had the best (and only) claim to the throne. What does it matter that he had no proof, or that nobody believed him; That doesn't change the fact that his claim was the strongest.

Everybody knows, as you've admitted, that Renly didn't care about who was the rightful King, or heir. He was attempting to usurp the crown for himself, whether he had more support or not, that is treason, the direst of crimes, not a stronger claim.

One only needs to site your own arguments, to prove your assertion false.

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If Renly had done his duty and supported Stannis, then the Battle of Blackwater Bay would have occurred sooner and perhaps Kingslanding falls because they are not yet prepared.  That much we can reasonably deduce.  If they are united, this is a very different war.  Tywin would have to go back to KL sooner because the attack is more imminent and without highgarden coming to the rescue with Tywin, KL probably falls.  Yes there is a very good chance that Highgarden sits out the war or even sides with Joffrey, but there is a better chance that they sit it out and wait for the winner.  

Neither one of these guys would have been a perfect solution because they are both being influenced, Stannis by Mel and Renly by Loras. 

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24 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Honestly, I'm not sure what the point of this discussion is. What are you trying to argue or prove?

The facts are that Stannis had the best (and only) claim to the throne. What does it matter that he had no proof, or that nobody believed him; That doesn't change the fact that his claim was the strongest.

Everybody knows, as you've admitted, that Renly didn't care about who was the rightful King, or heir. He was attempting to usurp the crown for himself, whether he had more support or not, that is treason, the direst of crimes, not a stronger claim.

If you actually read my post, you'll understand the point I'm trying to make. It's mentioned in there at least twice.

20 minutes ago, Chris Mormont said:

If Renly had done his duty and supported Stannis, then the Battle of Blackwater Bay would have occurred sooner and perhaps Kingslanding falls because they are not yet prepared.  That much we can reasonably deduce.  If they are united, this is a very different war.  Tywin would have to go back to KL sooner because the attack is more imminent and without highgarden coming to the rescue with Tywin, KL probably falls.  Yes there is a very good chance that Highgarden sits out the war or even sides with Joffrey, but there is a better chance that they sit it out and wait for the winner.  

Neither one of these guys would have been a perfect solution because they are both being influenced, Stannis by Mel and Renly by Loras. 

Stannis hadn't talked to anyone for months, just called his banners, built ships, and hired mercenaries. Had he bothered to stay in contact with his brother and potential ally, Renly probably *would* have allied with him and I have every belief that Renly would have trumpeted Stannis' declaration far and wide. It gives him a legitimate cassus belli and helps protect him from being murdered, which is the impetus behind his crowning anyway. Being alone and isolated with no allies makes a man take drastic measures.

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9 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

If you actually read my post, you'll understand the point I'm trying to make. It's mentioned in there at least twice.

Well, it was sort of a rhetorical question. The point is that your own argument does more to prove what you claim wrong, than it does to support it. 

What you are using to arguing in favor of Renly is not a stronger claim, it is a crime punishable by death. What you call murder by Stannis, was actually the execution of an usurper.

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50 minutes ago, Chris Mormont said:

If Renly had done his duty and supported Stannis,

If Renly had done his duty he would have supported Joffrey. He has no duty to Stannis. Men have a duty to Lords, Kings and Fathers. They don't have a duty to obey older brothers. 

Maybe if Stannis had done his duty and warned his King about the treason more people would believe his claims. 

 

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16 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Maybe if Stannis had done his duty and warned his King about the treason more people would believe his claims. 

This has already been addressed up thread. Stannis did take what were the most prudent steps in an attempt to warn his dismissive King.

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