Renly was the true steel

why does everyone blame Renly for Stannis's mistake

636 posts in this topic

Just now, Universal Sword Donor said:

Had Stannis communicated these concerns to Renly before he was crowned or before Robert died, then this entire thing might have been avoided.

Exactly that. When Stannis confronts Renly he already has an army, powerful allies, already crowned himself as King. 

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1 minute ago, Darkstream said:

I never said it was.

So why are you bringing this argument of "negligence"?

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4 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

So why are you bringing this argument of "negligence"?

Because, regardless of whether or not it is practical, regardless of whether or not I agree with Renly's actions and decisions, regardless of whether or not it was the right thing to do for the realm, or whatever other argument or reason you want to give, none of that changes the fact that he was negligent in his duties to his brother. I have made that quite clear in all of my previous posts.

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

But Stannis had a weaker position. That's the difference. Stannis knew that, he could become the hand of the new king. He could have storm's end after the war. But instead, he wanted everything.

No, he didn't want everything. He felt that it was his duty to take what was rightfully his. To make this statement is a misrepresentation, and shows a complete lack of understanding of his character, and a clear bias against him because your upset that he killed one of your favorite characters.

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So he cowardly kill his own brother with black magic.

Who cares if he used black magic? He did what he felt was necessary, used what method was available to him, and what in his mind, was the best thing for the realm. Would it change anything if he had used a sniper to kill him with a bow and arrow? Or if he had dragons, and used them to assassanate/execute someone who was attempting to usurp his rightful throne? Renly made his choice and paid the consequence.

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He knew he never could beat him in a fair fight.

True, but since when is war suppose to be fair? One could argue that it wasn't fair for Renly to be awarded Storms End, or to steal Stannis' crown. It's really neither here nor there. If your looking for fairness, I'm afraid you are reading the wrong books.

Edited by Darkstream

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On 3/29/2017 at 6:45 PM, Renly was the true steel said:

ill never understand why people think Renly "doing his duties as younger brother" would be a good idea the Tyrells would be gone and still reck them on the blackwater and stannis stubborn fool that he is wouldn't even try to reach terms with Robb (which Davos and Cresson urged him to)

meanwhile if Stannis concedes to Renly they can all take kingslanding together beat back Tywin end the war much faster 

Renly is known to have zero loyality or love for family. If he was loyal to his family, he would not have died. For those people who think that  Renly  is great, forgot that he was a terrible  person(he starve smallfolks by blocking Roseroad(food supply route), he advocated the murder of pregnant Dany, and he show his true colors when he and LF(a lord more evil than Varys) had a laugh at a joke where Renly mention Shireen(he called her Stannis' ugly daughter) in a joke about Stannis. He also seem to only called Shireen "Stannis' daughter" instead of his(Renly's) niece). He seem to not see her as family.

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29 minutes ago, Batbob45 said:

Renly is known to have zero loyality or love for family. If he was loyal to his family, he would not have died. For those people who think that  Renly  is great, forgot that he was a terrible  person(he starve smallfolks by blocking Roseroad(food supply route), he advocated the murder of pregnant Dany, and he show his true colors when he and LF(a lord more evil than Varys) had a laugh at a joke where Renly mention Shireen(he called her Stannis' ugly daughter) in a joke about Stannis. He also seem to only called Shireen "Stannis' daughter" instead of his(Renly's) niece). He seem to not see her as family.

Says who? He doesn't like Stannis, granted, but he seemed to have no issues with Robert.

Stannis is my favourite character but people tend to forget an important factor about Renly's decision to Crown himself: He didn't know about the Twincest. He fully believed that Joffrey was the rightful heir to the Throne and that he was knowingly committing treason.

With that in mind, do you honestly expect him to go to Stannis and try and convince him to join in? Stannis? The guy who openly admits that he found it difficult to rebel against Aerys, even after Aerys had demanded his brother's head? He had every reason to believe that Stannis would turn him over to the Lannisters just because it was "the right thing to do". Once he realised that Stannis wanted the Throne, it was too late. Renly was already crowned and there was no way to back down, even if he'd wanted to.

And then there's the issue of Stannis actually being King. As much as I like the guy, him losing on the Blackwater was the best thing that could've happened to him, since it made him reevaluate why he actually wanted to be King. Had he taken the Throne without that defeat, he would've been despised and probably deposed pretty quickly, with Renly falling alongside him.

Personally I've never understood why people passionately hate one or the other. I like both the characters and I think both of them had perfectly valid reasons to act as they did, even if it ended in tragedy, which is a common theme throughout the series.

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Darkstream said:

Whether Stannis can prove his accusation or not, is not the issue here. In the society that they live in, it is the older sibling who is by rights the head of the house. And it is the younger siblings duty to defer to the eldest in all matters, whether that is a claim on the throne, or submitting to an arranged marriage, etc.

Yes, I agree at this point, it would not be practical for Renly to submit to Stannis' demands, however, that does not change the fact that Renly is shirking his obligations to Stannis.


That's got more to do with the older sibling typically inheriting an actual title from their father, Stannis has no title senior to Renly except king yet he cannot prove that. 

If anything the closest to a head of House Baratheon would be Joffrey but Robert gave away Storm's End and the seat of House Baratheon so it muddies the issue. It would be easier to categorise House Baratheon as cadet branches now, Baratheon of King's Landing, Dragonstone and Storm's End with King's Landing having seniority as the royal house. Storm's End owes no fealty to Dragonstone nor would a lord paramount be expected to follow his brother around simply because he's his brother furthermore he holds the traditional seat of Storm's End and that's definitely not subservient to Dragonstone.  




 

 

Edited by Trigger Warning

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14 minutes ago, Trigger Warning said:


That's got more to do with the older sibling typically inheriting an actual title from their father, Stannis has no title senior to Renly except king yet he cannot prove that. 

If anything the closest to a head of House Baratheon would be Joffrey but Robert gave away Storm's End and the seat of House Baratheon so it muddies the issue. It would be easier to categorise House Baratheon as cadet branches now, Baratheon of King's Landing, Dragonstone and Storm's End with King's Landing having seniority as the royal house. Storm's End owes no fealty to Dragonstone nor would a lord paramount be expected to follow his brother around simply because he's his brother. 

Sure, the whole issue is muddied, and conflated with the various factors and conflicts that have lead to the situation. This is one of the main themes running throughout the story. My argument is coming from the point of view that Stannis has, what we know as the readers, and pertaining to the question asked by the op.

Like I have tried to make clear in my previous posts, I'm not coming at this in favor of one side or the other. By the laws of Westeros, and having the information that we do as readers, it is a fact, not an opinion, that Stannis was in the right to oppose Renly, and that Renly was negligent in his duties to Stannis.

This is the reason, as the op asked, why many readers (rightfully so) blame Renly, and defend Stannis.

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Posted (edited)

On 30/3/2017 at 4:32 AM, Renly's Banana said:

he's a mentally unhinged sad clown

:bs: Do you have any proof about that?

On 30/3/2017 at 4:32 AM, Renly's Banana said:

attached to an invasive religious movement

Also wrong. Stannis is an agnostic.

On 30/3/2017 at 4:32 AM, Renly's Banana said:

harsh king a la Maegor

Do you have any proof about that?  I guess no.

Stannis had no reason to make a deal with Robb who wanted to take half of the Realm or with Renly who as Donal Noye 

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And Renly, that one, he's copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day

and Olenna

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He knew how to dress and he knew how to smile and he knew how to bathe, and somehow he got the notion that this made him fit to be king. said.

There was no reason why Stannis should had bend the knee to him, what battles Renly had won? When he had proved to be good at anything else than looking good? Renly was good to look at but useless.

Edited by Jon's Queen Consort

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21 minutes ago, UnFit Finlay said:

Personally I've never understood why people passionately hate one or the other. I like both the characters and I think both of them had perfectly valid reasons to act as they did, even if it ended in tragedy, which is a common theme throughout the series.

I couldn't agree more. :thumbsup:

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6 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Sure, the whole issue is muddied, and conflated with the various factors and conflicts that have lead to the situation. This is one of the main themes running throughout the story. My argument is coming from the point of view that Stannis has, what we know as the readers, and pertaining to the question asked by the op.

Like I have tried to make clear in my previous posts, I'm not coming at this in favor of one side or the other. By the laws of Westeros, and having the information that we do as readers, it is a fact, not an opinion, that Stannis was in the right to oppose Renly, and that Renly was negligent in his duties to Stannis.

This is the reason, as the op asked, why many readers (rightfully so) blame Renly, and defend Stannis.


Oh well then that's fair enough I was even about to write something about this from Stannis' perspective in that post. 

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1 hour ago, Darkstream said:

Who cares if he used black magic?

Small folk care.

 

1 hour ago, Darkstream said:

Would it change anything if he had used a sniper to kill him with a bow and arrow?

Yes it would change. He wouldn't be a black magic user, just a coward.

 

1 hour ago, Darkstream said:

Or if he had dragons, and used them to assassanate/execute someone who was attempting to usurp his rightful throne?

And yet we reach the fact that, Stannis would be the rightful heir just and only just he could prove to anyone that Joffrey wasn't Robert's son. Which he couldn't.

 

1 hour ago, Darkstream said:

To make this statement is a misrepresentation, and shows a complete lack of understanding of his character, and a clear bias against him because your upset that he killed one of your favorite characters.

I do understand his reasoning process, but what I'm trying to say is:
1) Even if his reasoning is right, his brother didn't know beforehand that Joffrey is a bastard
2) Renly wasn't usurping Stannis, he was commiting treason against Joffrey.
3) Stannis wasn't Robert's heir, Joffrey was. We as readers know that Joffrey is a bastard, but no one (except Cersei and Jaime) in the realm could prove it.

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Posted (edited)

25 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

Small folk care.

Do they? The small folk want to be left alone to live their lives in peace. They care nothing for the high Lords, and their game of thrones.

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Yes it would change. He wouldn't be a black magic user, just a coward.

And what does that change?

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And yet we reach the fact that, Stannis would be the rightful heir just and only just he could prove to anyone that Joffrey wasn't Robert's son. Which he couldn't.

And?

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I do understand his reasoning process, but what I'm trying to say is:
1) Even if his reasoning is right, his brother didn't know beforehand that Joffrey is a bastard

Agreed.

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2) Renly wasn't usurping Stannis, he was commiting treason against Joffrey.

No, he was usurping Stannis, he just wasn't aware of it.

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3) Stannis wasn't Robert's heir, Joffrey was. We as readers know that Joffrey is a bastard, but no one (except Cersei and Jaime) in the realm could prove it.

Again no, Stannis was Robert's heir, Renly just wasn't aware of it.

---

Again, you are missing my whole point, I haven't disputed much of what you are saying. Please refer to my previous post in response to Trigger Warning, I hope that clarifies where I'm coming from for you.

Edited by Darkstream

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3 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Again, you are missing my whole point, I haven't disputed much of what you are saying. Please refer to my previous post in response to Trigger Warning, I hope that clarifies where I'm coming from for you.

I've read again and now I understand what you were trying to say. Sorry if I had been rude. Stannis in his reasoning process was right. And as readers we have more information than Renly's. Renly and Stannis didn't anything wrong in their own minds. They simply had a difference of opinion that lead in they losing together. (Renly dying, and Stannis losing most of his men).

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1 minute ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

I've read again and now I understand what you were trying to say. Sorry if I had been rude. Stannis in his reasoning process was right. And as readers we have more information than Renly's. Renly and Stannis didn't anything wrong in their own minds. They simply had a difference of opinion that lead in they losing together. (Renly dying, and Stannis losing most of his men).

No problem. :cheers:

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22 hours ago, velo-knight said:

 completely ignoring the precedent he's setting and propaganda coup he can arrange by backing Stannis.

Action was needed, not thinking about possible precedents in the future.

17 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

If you can't find consensus with your own brother, I'd say your political leadership is not all it's cracked up to be.  The situation was always going to be a tragedy -- unless Renly played by the rules.  I think rules, responsibility and accountability are important -- or it's just a descent into self-indulgent anarchy.

 

Thank you for opening my eyes,i always thought Stalin(had problems with son and wife) was a good politician,but it turns out he was a lousy one.

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Posted (edited)

10 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

This is just looking for anything to diminish Renly's capabilities. 

Renly's mistake was not knowing his brother has a magical assassin, other than that he was the most well placed contender to actually win the war, I really don't see why people project this image of a fool onto him. Brothers fighting brothers is about as typical as medieval warfare gets.  

I wasn't intending to diminish Renly's capabilities.  However, he should rather have used those marvellous social skills of his in service of his brother -- e.g. as Stannis's Hand -- instead of against him.  Two brothers cooperating, pooling their resources, rather than feuding and tearing each other apart, would have been the ultimate political position and given the Baratheons a distinct advantage.  

Renly's not a fool per se; although his ambition certainly made a fool of him.  

 I see the 'magical shadow assassin' or 'eating the peach' as a metaphor for the temptations of power and the ethical limits people are prepared to breach in pursuit of that power.  Stannis 'broke the rules' by killing his brother in a surreptitious, underhand manner, rather than meet him on the battlefield where Stannis's forces would have been no match for Renly's; hence, Renly's cocky manner ahead of the battle.  In essence, this is no different to Tywin killing Robb at the Red Wedding.  Why is killing your brother via surprise assassination worse than killing your brother on the battlefield?  Either way you're killing your brother.  Renly 'broke the rules' by crowning himself ahead of his brother, antagonizing and then mocking him.  Stannis 'broke the rules' by killing him with sorcery. Is one better than the other?  Brotherly loyalty was absent.  They were both equally lawless and full of their own importance.

It was each man for himself in a 'nature red in tooth and claw' world -- and Stannis won because he had the trump card:  the 'Red Hawk' (another metaphor that oughtn't to be taken nor debated literally).  Period.

1 hour ago, Tralalala said:

Thank you for opening my eyes,i always thought Stalin(had problems with son and wife) was a good politician,but it turns out he was a lousy one.

Are you being facetious?  Depends on how you define a 'good' politician.  If all you care about is 'might makes right' and 'bugger all ethical concerns' in order to assert ones dominance, then perhaps Stalin was a good politician.  If, however, you care about achieving brotherly consensus and the wellbeing in the wider sense, of the people under the leadership of said ruler, as a chief political concern, then he was a 'bad' politician.  

In other words, if your sole criterion for defining a successful politician lies in how successfully he can squash his opponents, then I'm surprised you would still think Renly was a good politician.  Renly died; Stannis survived him.  Therefore, according to a cynical definition of 'good' politician, Stannis like Stalin is the more shrewd tactician.

Edited by ravenous reader

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4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Actually it is exactly the point. Unless Stannis is the rightful head of the house, which is not the case if Joffrey hasn't been proven illegitimate, then Renly owes him no fealty. In fact they are cadet branches of the royal branch, if anything. In a vacuum where only the reader exists, we know that Renly should owe fealty to Stannis as the rightful king. No one can or should dispute that. What we can and will dispute is whether Renly owed Stannis any type of fealty, which he doesn't until Stannis becomes head of the house. Had Stannis communicated these concerns to Renly before he was crowned or before Robert died, then this entire thing might have been avoided.

Sorry, I missed you post, I didn't mean to ignore you.

I hope my other responses cleared up my take on this.

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7 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I can answer that and it's no. The whole point of allying with Renly was to put Marg and by extension Tyrell grandchildren on the throne. Renly needed the protection the Reach army could give -- the throne resources far outstrip his as LP of the Stormlands and the Lannisters are trying to kill him -- and Mace had no dog in the fight. Either Joff or Renly provides him with a grandson as king, but Renly got their first, is a grown man, and happens to be his favorite son's best friend.

As I said, I'm somewhat undecided here, but if I had to pick a side I think that Mace would side with the Lannisters over Stannis. Although, if Renly did declare for Stannis, Robb might have declared for him too; Mace might have been reluctant to fight that alliance. But that's on Stannis; he dithered and didn't declare himself King for far too long (and then had the nerve to complain when potential allies went elsewhere).

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7 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

<snip

Not having support and and not being able to prove you should be king (and we agree Stannis is the rightful king) mean everything in the book. If we're debating outside of the book, you're still asking Renly to set aside an alliance he created specifically to protect himself from the Lannisters. Renly was a jackass to Stannis while in a position of strength. I guess you could say he was being a jackass to the twincest group, but since their mom was trying to kill him I'd personally give him a pass.

If Renly takes Stannis' offer, the Tyrell marriage is dissolved. It was never consummated. Margaery would never have been queen so long as Renly was heir, not king, in any measure. His "noble" motivation was his own survival and he chose the most expedient way to do so.

All I said was that it doesn't change the fact that he is the rightful king.

I'm not asking him to do anything. I'm saying he should have taken the offer.

Not necessarily. The marriage could have been consummated later. If Renly was heir, then when Stannis died Renly would have become king and his wife would become Queen. Mace wanted his daughter to be queen so that his grandson can someday be king. Marriage to Renly who will be king, accomplishes the same thing. Should Renly predecease Stannis, Margaery and Renly's firstborn son would then be Stannis' heir, so it's all the same.

On the other hand, let's say Margaery gets an annulment and the Tyrells sit back and watch to see whether the Lannisters or the Baratheon brothers emerge victorious. If Stannis won, I wouldn't be surprised if Selyse was suddenly taken ill a few months after his coronation and the Tyrells conveniently offered Margaery. Then it's just a matter of having Loras persuade Renly to give up his own claim in favor of Margaery's children.

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