Renly was the true steel

why does everyone blame Renly for Stannis's mistake

317 posts in this topic

Your using two contradicting statements. Why should he rush into battle with Stannis despite SE most likely not going to fall but let KL prepare even more so which waiting did. Had he rushed in to take KL quick, he could of pressed his claim even more so as he was the holder of the capital. Let Stannis and his paltry force siege SE, he wont take it by conventional means. 

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The entire point of Stannis-Renly arc is to show the entitlement level of Stannis. Renly believes qualifications makes one a king not just birthright and then there is Stannis who feels he is owed the seat of power because of birthright. I am glad Stannis became a better person by choosing to save people as he had finally understood he owes to the people to get a seat of power in return.

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Birth right means nothing unless the person in question have the support of the Liege Lords. Robert Baratheon had no birth right to rule Westeros but his mates at the Vale, the Riverlands and the North made sure his arse sits on the iron thrones. His marriage with the Lannister harpie made sure it stayed there. The beggar king was the rightful heir to the throne and yet, he never dared stepping back to Westeros. The reason to that was because he had no support whatsoever.

Renly was LP of the Stormlands and he had total support of the Tyrells whom, together with the Lannisters, are the powerhouse of Westeros. With the lion and the wolf busy skinning one another, he was the only Baratheon with a decent shot to the throne. Stannis had a choice. He could either bend the knee to his brother and make sure that the Baratheon dynasty doesn't end after just 1 generation or he could kill his brother and secure Joffrey's reign. Its a shame he chose badly. 

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On 3/29/2017 at 7:45 PM, Renly was the true steel said:

ill never understand why people think Renly "doing his duties as younger brother" would be a good idea the Tyrells would be gone and still reck them on the blackwater and stannis stubborn fool that he is wouldn't even try to reach terms with Robb (which Davos and Cresson urged him to)

meanwhile if Stannis concedes to Renly they can all take kingslanding together beat back Tywin end the war much faster 

Because Stannis is rightful heir by law. It's as simple as that, Renly defied the laws of succession that governed Westeros. 

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3 hours ago, khal drogon said:

Renly believes qualifications makes one a king

What qualifications? What has Renly done to prove that he is better than Stannis and he would had been a better King?

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Which is also why he garnered more support that Stannis; Because of his popularity, rather than his qualifications.

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On 30.3.2017 at 2:20 AM, Renly was the true steel said:

i know im asking why so many readers think stannis was in the right here when he was basically risking the lives of thousands for his right to a throne he doesn't even want and doesn't have support to take it

Stannis had the right to the throne, plain and simple. He was in the right because by right it was his, that's not hard to understand. Renly wasn't any more ready to let the north be independent, and Robb wouldn't accept that either way. 

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4 hours ago, devilish said:

Birth right means nothing unless the person in question have the support of the Liege Lords. Robert Baratheon had no birth right to rule Westeros but his mates at the Vale, the Riverlands and the North made sure his arse sits on the iron thrones. His marriage with the Lannister harpie made sure it stayed there. The beggar king was the rightful heir to the throne and yet, he never dared stepping back to Westeros. The reason to that was because he had no support whatsoever.

Renly was LP of the Stormlands and he had total support of the Tyrells whom, together with the Lannisters, are the powerhouse of Westeros. With the lion and the wolf busy skinning one another, he was the only Baratheon with a decent shot to the throne. Stannis had a choice. He could either bend the knee to his brother and make sure that the Baratheon dynasty doesn't end after just 1 generation or he could kill his brother and secure Joffrey's reign. Its a shame he chose badly. 

The Targaryens had arguably abused their rights and broken the feudal contract, so they lost their right to the throne. Stannis didn't do such a thing. 

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12 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Because he's more popular than Stannis.

I know but popularity isn't what makes someone a good King. Renly has done nothing to prove that he is good enough.

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That didn't matter, since Renly still crowned himself king.

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5 hours ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

What qualifications? What has Renly done to prove that he is better than Stannis and he would had been a better King. 

To be loved by lords and people. Renly definitely knows allies makes kings. Simple differentiate his approach to Catelyn with Stannis's you would see the difference. Renly is more closer to early Robert which makes him more qualified than Stannis anyday.

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5 hours ago, Darkstream said:

Which is also why he garnered more support that Stannis; Because of his popularity, rather than his qualifications.

But do you think popularity for kingship would come without any qualifications?

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5 hours ago, John Doe said:

Stannis had the right to the throne, plain and simple. He was in the right because by right it was his, that's not hard to understand. Renly wasn't any more ready to let the north be independent, and Robb wouldn't accept that either way.

'Rights' are pointless if no one is there to support his claim. Next in line to the throne doesn't make one a king automatically if he doesn't earn love and trust of his own vassals. Since you talk about feudal contracts that's how feudalism works.

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Posted (edited)

12 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

But do you think popularity for kingship would come without any qualifications?

Yes I do. Just look at the comparison you yourself made. Robert was not qualified to be king, however he was popular, and therefore received support.

How did that work out for him and the welfare of the kingdom?

Edited by Darkstream

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Posted (edited)

20 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

'Rights' are pointless if no one is there to support his claim. Next in line to the throne doesn't make one a king automatically if he doesn't earn love and trust of his own vassals. Since you talk about feudal contracts that's how feudalism works.

...And one of the many reasons fuedalism sucks, and is a failed ideology.

Edited by Darkstream

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6 hours ago, Darkstream said:

Yes I do. Just look at the comparison you yourself made. Robert was not qualified to be king, however he was popular, and therefore received support.

How did that work out for him and the welfare of the kingdom?

But being able to make allies and earning people's love is the thing both prime Robert and Renly got it right. Actual ruling is quite easy if you had good advisors. Welfare will come automatically if there are no civil wars which would be the case if Stannis became king.

6 hours ago, Darkstream said:

...And one of the many reasons fuedalism sucks, and is a failed ideology.

Agreed.

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6 hours ago, Darkstream said:

Yes I do. Just look at the comparison you yourself made. Robert was not qualified to be king, however he was popular, and therefore received support.

How did that work out for him and the welfare of the kingdom?

But being able to make allies and earning people's love is the thing both prime Robert and Renly got it right. Actual ruling is quite easy if you had good advisors. Welfare will come automatically if there are no civil wars which would be the case if Stannis became king.

6 hours ago, Darkstream said:

...And one of the many reasons fuedalism sucks, and is a failed ideology.

Agreed.

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, khal drogon said:

But being able to make allies and earning people's love is the thing both prime Robert and Renly got it right.

Yeah, and getting that right still lead the realm into financial disaster and a horrific, devastating war.

Sure, being able to make allies, or earn the love of the people would definitely be a beneficial asset when considering potential candidates to rule, but...

Quote

 

Actual ruling is quite easy if you had good advisors. Welfare will come automatically if there are no civil wars which would be the case if Stannis became king.

 
I don't think ruling in any capacity can be considered easy. And I certainly don't think welfare and peace would come automatically, or be sustainable just because a transition of power was achieved without a civil war - Not at all if the powers that be are not qualified to govern the day to day affairs of the kingdom.

So Renly is great at making allies, that is all fine and dandy to help you gain power. But what does he do when two of these allies have some sort of dispute, and are about to go to war over it? How is he going to maintain these alliances if he has to rule in favor of one of these parties over the other? Or how about managing the finances of the realm, or dealing with natural disasters or crisis such as famine and disease, or the threat of the Others. I don't think him being charismatic and personable is going to automatically solve any of those issues.

Edited by Darkstream

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15 hours ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

What qualifications? What has Renly done to prove that he is better than Stannis and he would had been a better King?

He actually had support unlike Stannis who had to resort to sellswords and sellsails and black magic. Renly got the backing of the Reach and the Stormlands. Stannis got a few Crownlands houses.

14 hours ago, Darkstream said:

Which is also why he garnered more support that Stannis; Because of his popularity, rather than his qualifications.

Yup.

9 hours ago, khal drogon said:

'Rights' are pointless if no one is there to support his claim. Next in line to the throne doesn't make one a king automatically if he doesn't earn love and trust of his own vassals. Since you talk about feudal contracts that's how feudalism works.

Indeed. Also by right Joffrey was the king because the incest (although we know as readers to be true) can't really be proven and the realm mostly sees at as a play for the throne.

At least Renly had support and the largest army. Frankly he probably would have won if Stannis hadn't used black magic to kill him.

Heck I like Stannis but he was never going to win the throne... also he let Robert die instead of telling him about the incest. Granted Robert probably would have laughed if off but he could have at least made the effort.

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