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Cups of Knowledge: Choice, Destiny, and the Human Heart


300 H&H Magnum

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Continuing the discussion on the Cup of Fire and the Cup of Ice.

I believe people do have a destiny but they also have the freedom to choose.  Their choices are not predetermined.  Rather they are the result of the conflict between the mind and the heart.  George Martin himself told us that the only story worth writing about is the conflict within the human heart.  I submit that such conflict will have little meaning if free will does not exists and everything is predetermined.  Choices matter.

Lord Aenar Targaryen heard his daughter's (Daenys) predictions and made the wise decision to get his family out of Valyria.  There is no point in receiving visions if what will happen was already predetermined.  Daenys saw Valyria destroyed.  It doesn't mean the Targaryen family would perish.  It meant the Targaryen family would perish if they make the wrong decision.  Aenar had faith in his daughter and chose wisely. 

Dwelling on prophecy can cause more damage.  Cersei and Jon are two examples.  A passive approach might have been better.

 

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I don't see much to disagree with here. The most common responses to prophesy that we've seen include:

  • Believing it explicitly and taking action: as when the Targaryons moved themselves, their household and dragons out of Valyria, or Cersei embarking on a campaign to kill each of Robert's offspring (including her own pregnancies), or living in dread of the "younger, more beautiful" queen and the valonqar (who she's determined MUST be Tyrion).
  • Hearing about it, but not really thinking much about it until much later, if at all (Arya and the words from the Ghost of High Heart)
  • Remembering it, and although not explicitly taking actions in response, at least trying to gauge whether her current course of action would be in line with the prophesies (Daenerys in most things).

The first course of action worked out well for the "Targs", who as far as we know, just did it and didn't remain obsessed; it's going poorly for Cersei, who has lost much support due to her brutality - and her unfaithfulness to Robert/abominable breeding with her twin brother.

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I think this is why so many prophecies are infuriatingly vague, while others are oddly specific. The farther away from the event, the more room there is for deviation. Which is why we end up with a range of "Pretty much any Targ could be the Prince who was Promised" to the Ghost of High Heart pretty much calling all the events in the immediate future.

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On 3/30/2017 at 3:17 PM, zandru said:

I don't see much to disagree with here. The most common responses to prophesy that we've seen include:

  • Believing it explicitly and taking action: as when the Targaryons moved themselves, their household and dragons out of Valyria, or Cersei embarking on a campaign to kill each of Robert's offspring (including her own pregnancies), or living in dread of the "younger, more beautiful" queen and the valonqar (who she's determined MUST be Tyrion).
  • Hearing about it, but not really thinking much about it until much later, if at all (Arya and the words from the Ghost of High Heart)
  • Remembering it, and although not explicitly taking actions in response, at least trying to gauge whether her current course of action would be in line with the prophesies (Daenerys in most things).

The first course of action worked out well for the "Targs", who as far as we know, just did it and didn't remain obsessed; it's going poorly for Cersei, who has lost much support due to her brutality - and her unfaithfulness to Robert/abominable breeding with her twin brother.

My motto is let common sense and good judgment rule your actions.  Daenys the Dreamer was certain to have a good track record before her father took the advice.  I agree with the poster and free will is important.  Predestination takes responsibility away from the character and I don't think that's Martin's style. 

I like the way Dany handles prophecy.  Qaithe warned her of Quentyn's motives.  Yet Dany didn't automatically dismiss Quentyn and label him the enemy.  She gave him a chance and observed him closely.  He turned out to be of benefit and performed a service when he released the dragons before the harpy could assassinate them.  He meant to steal the dragons but in the end he ended up saving their lives from the harpy.

On 3/30/2017 at 5:47 PM, Alaynsa Starne said:

I think this is why so many prophecies are infuriatingly vague, while others are oddly specific. The farther away from the event, the more room there is for deviation. Which is why we end up with a range of "Pretty much any Targ could be the Prince who was Promised" to the Ghost of High Heart pretty much calling all the events in the immediate future.

Those scrolls in Asshai were actually scribbled down by circus fortune tellers thousands of years ago.  The farther away from the event, the more they have deviated from the original.  Too many translations and different word choices here and there.  Changes in dialect.  Translator bias.  AA caught his wife cheating with a Lannister ancestor and murdered them.  The red comet came back twelve years later and the season changed to warm.  AA was the mayor of the land and his public relations team, with the aid of swords, gave a press conference that the sacrifice of his wife brought back spring.  Murder became sacrifice and a climate change became a heroic deed.

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On 3/29/2017 at 8:31 PM, 300 H&H Mag said:

Continuing the discussion on the Cup of Fire and the Cup of Ice.

I believe people do have a destiny but they also have the freedom to choose.  Their choices are not predetermined.  Rather they are the result of the conflict between the mind and the heart.  George Martin himself told us that the only story worth writing about is the conflict within the human heart.  I submit that such conflict will have little meaning if free will does not exists and everything is predetermined.  Choices matter.

Lord Aenar Targaryen heard his daughter's (Daenys) predictions and made the wise decision to get his family out of Valyria.  There is no point in receiving visions if what will happen was already predetermined.  Daenys saw Valyria destroyed.  It doesn't mean the Targaryen family would perish.  It meant the Targaryen family would perish if they make the wrong decision.  Aenar had faith in his daughter and chose wisely. 

Dwelling on prophecy can cause more damage.  Cersei and Jon are two examples.  A passive approach might have been better.

 

Late to the party but:

That's very good, and I would add that the Targaryen struggle with madness may stem from this very dynamic between the equally subtle influences of of prophetic destiny and free will.

 

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The one who drinks from the Cup of Fire and Cup of Ice will be the one with knowledge of the big picture.  I share your opinion.  The Cups represent knowledge in the way they open the mind's eye.  Dany will have all the knowledge after she takes a spoonful of the porridge that Bran had already sampled.  Bran, if he gets a chance to drink from cup of fire will also have this knowledge.  What they choose to do with that knowledge will determine the welfare of many. 

Dany and Bran will be the main pivotal characters.  And yeah, if Jon is no longer a pov character then we can conclude that he has used up all his powder and shot his last wad.  He can still play along but he is no longer a pivotal character.  His spirit could simply live on in the weirwood net and he can help guide Bran. 

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On 3/29/2017 at 8:31 PM, 300 H&H Mag said:

Dwelling on prophecy can cause more damage.  Cersei and Jon are two examples.  A passive approach might have been better.

 

Jon? Don't you mean Rhaegar?

If anything, Jon is the opposite of "dwelling on prophecy," he doesn't believe in it.  However, it is GRRM that is making the point with Jon in all the current 5 books so far, that he's path is already chosen.  No matter what he did, does or will do, honor will force him, thrust him to be on that chosen path.

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10 hours ago, IceFire125 said:

Jon? Don't you mean Rhaegar?

If anything, Jon is the opposite of "dwelling on prophecy," he doesn't believe in it.  However, it is GRRM that is making the point with Jon in all the current 5 books so far, that he's path is already chosen.  No matter what he did, does or will do, honor will force him, thrust him to be on that chosen path.

""A grey girl on a dying horse", on the strength of that vision he had set Mance Rayder loose on the north" [From ADWD, Jon's pov chapter].  So yes, I meant Jon.  Jon allowed Melisandre's vision to influence his decisions and as a result, he commits treason.  His decision to help Arya caused problems at the wall.

10 hours ago, IceFire125 said:

Jon? Don't you mean Rhaegar?

If anything, Jon is the opposite of "dwelling on prophecy," he doesn't believe in it.  However, it is GRRM that is making the point with Jon in all the current 5 books so far, that he's path is already chosen.  No matter what he did, does or will do, honor will force him, thrust him to be on that chosen path.

Rhaegar is still an unknown.  We read conflicting accounts of the man.

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12 hours ago, 300 H&H Mag said:

""A grey girl on a dying horse", on the strength of that vision he had set Mance Rayder loose on the north" [From ADWD, Jon's pov chapter].  So yes, I meant Jon.  Jon allowed Melisandre's vision to influence his decisions and as a result, he commits treason.  His decision to help Arya caused problems at the wall.

Rhaegar is still an unknown.  We read conflicting accounts of the man.

You gave Rhaegar the standing that lead you to him being conflicted, but not the same benefit of the doubt to Jon being conflicted?...

“You see fools in your fire, but no hint of Stannis?”
“When I search for him all I see is snow.”
The same useless answer.

“And what of Mance? Is he lost as well? What do your fires show?”
“The same, I fear. Only snow.”

...

“I am seeing skulls. And you. I see your face every time I look into the flames. The danger that I warned you of grows very close now.”
Daggers in the dark. I know. You will forgive my doubts, my lady. A grey girl on a dying horse, fleeing from a marriage, that was what you said.”
“I was not wrong.”
You were not right. Alys is not Arya.”
“The vision was a true one. It was my reading that was false. I am as mortal as you, Jon Snow. All mortals err.”
“Even lord commanders.” Mance Rayder and his spearwives had not returned, and Jon could not help but wonder whether the red woman had lied of a purpose. Is she playing her own game?

...

“Selyse has the right of this, Lord Snow. Let them die. You cannot save them. Your ships are lost—”
“Six remain. More than half the fleet.”
“Your ships are lost. All of them. Not a man shall return. I have seen that in my fires.
Your fires have been known to lie.”
“I have made mistakes, I have admitted as much, but—”
A grey girl on a dying horse. Daggers in the dark. A promised prince, born in smoke and salt. It seems to me that you make nothing but mistakes, my lady...”

Quote

Jon allowed Melisandre's vision to influence his decisions and as a result, he commits treason

No, I disagree.  The pink letter was a big factor in Jon's decision.  The trigger, was his LOVE for Arya.  That was the point GRRM was making, Love is the death of Duty.

It had been so long since he had last seen Arya. What would she look like now? Would he even know her? Arya Underfoot. Her face was always dirty. Would she still have that little sword he’d had Mikken forge for her? Stick them with the pointy end, he’d told her. Wisdom for her wedding night if half of what he heard of Ramsay Snow was true. Bring her home, Mance. I saved your son from Melisandre, and now I am about to save four thousand of your free folk. You owe me this one little girl.

**At that instant, "home" is not Winterfell, home is where ever Jon was.

**Was GRRM making an inverse-mirroring point? save thousands for one girl... one girl for thousands of lives...

Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it.

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