Garth of the Gallows (Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire)

[ravenous reader]

What I'm seeing in the Prologue is three brothers.  One brother (Will) surreptitiously summoned the Others (the 'silent prayer he whispered to the nameless gods of the wood' whereafter they appeared on cue) in order to get back at one of his brothers (Waymar) who had slighted him.  The remaining brother took the fall (Gared).  And then the weapon of war backfired, when his brother was transformed (wighted Waymar) by the original weapon he'd summoned -- and killed him for his treachery.

[LmL]

2 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Right.  Like PK pointed out, Tyrion mounting the fool to cloak/marry the moon/Sansa.

Unchained seemed to be saying there were four players involved -- one on trial vs. a panel of three.  However, I'm finding three, not four, players involved.  e.g. in the Prologue.

Well, consider also the idea of the unseen player. At Ned's execution, Joff is the sun, Payne his comet sword, and Ned the Nissa Nissa... where is Petyr? Just standing by, smiling. I am wondering if this trickster / manipulator who "keep his hands clean" might be something like "the stranger," which in astronomy terms is the night sky, space, the void, etc. Petyr is sometimes like a merling King figure, who is already within the sea and lures people into it. 

It could be that the horned lord figure is the comet, and the sun is the manipulator who keeps his hands clean (at first). Joff sent the Catspaw, and I interpret that as the sun sending the comet, so Baelish is a solar figure. At Ned's execution, he essentially overlaps with Joffrey as someone who caused Ilyn Payne to act without himself swinging a sword.

[ravenous reader]

Just now, LmL said:

Well, consider also the idea of the unseen player. At Ned's execution, Joff is the sun, Payne his comet sword, and Ned the Nissa Nissa... where is Petyr? Just standing by, smiling. I am wondering if this trickster / manipulator who "keep his hands clean" might be something like "the stranger," which in astronomy terms is the night sky, space, the void, etc. Petyr is sometimes like a merling King figure, who is already within the sea and lures people into it. 

Exactly.  In the sea and in the see!  The unseen player is the greenseer, like Will (the sorcerous Shakespearean) up the tall sentinel lost among the needles...

Just now, LmL said:

It could be that the horned lord figure is the comet, and the sun is the manipulator who keeps his hands clean (at first). Joff sent the Catspaw, and I interpret that as the sun sending the comet, so Baelish is a solar figure. At Ned's execution, he essentially overlaps with Joffrey as someone who caused Ilyn Payne to act without himself swinging a sword.

You're missing the greenseer on the ground.  He was the one who tinkered with everything in order to satisfy his own petty need for vengeance.

Baelish -- 'grey-green' greenseer

Joff -- sun

Ned -- moon

Ice -- comet

[LmL]

1 minute ago, ravenous reader said:

Exactly.  In the sea and in the see!  The unseen player is the greenseer, like Will (the sorcerous Shakespearean) up the tall sentinel lost among the needles...

You're missing the greenseer on the ground.  He was the one who tinkered with everything in order to satisfy his own petty need for vengeance.

Baelish -- 'grey-green' greenseer

Joff -- sun

Ned -- moon

Ice -- comet

I suppose that makes sense. From the perspective of earth, the celestial axis is our axis, and thus everything seems to revolve around the earth, making us the manipulator. That squares with Petyr as the earth-bound greenseer. I guess I didn't consider that this figure might not have a celestial analog.

However, when a greenseer sends his spirit into a weirwood, that is an analog to the sun sending it's comet into the moon. Thus, the greenseer should in general align with the sun and the comet, and this seams to bear out as i apply the hypothesis to various scenes. Of course, for the greenseer to steer the comet into the moon, he might have "ride" the comet or, in some sense, "skinchange" the comet. 

[Bluetiger]

I'll just point out that LF is a trickster god, like Loki, and Loki comes from word meaning 'to break'. 

 

[ravenous reader]

6 minutes ago, LmL said:

I suppose that makes sense. From the perspective of earth, the celestial axis is our axis, and thus everything seems to revolve around the earth, making us the manipulator. That squares with Petyr as the earth-bound greenseer. I guess I didn't consider that this figure might not have a celestial analog.

However, when a greenseer sends his spirit into a weirwood, that is an analog to the sun sending it's comet into the moon. Thus, the greenseer should in general align with the sun and the comet, and this seams to bear out as i apply the hypothesis to various scenes. Of course, for the greenseer to steer the comet into the moon, he might have "ride" the comet or, in some sense, "skinchange" the comet. 

So, in terms of the Prologue:

Will -- greenseer

Sentinel tree -- sun (fire of the gods, burning bush/tree)

Waymar -- moon

Gared -- other moon 

the 'Other(s)' -- comet

ETA: Wighted Waymar -- moon meteor(s)

Will projected the Others using the tree.  The Others are a projection of the human 'Id'.  That's like 'skinchanging the comet'.  That's why GRRM calls him Shakespeare.  Because no-one could bring words to life (at least not in the English tongue) the way the Bard could.

[LmL]

2 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

So, in terms of the Prologue:

Will -- greenseer

Sentinel tree -- sun (fire of the gods, burning bush/tree)

Waymar -- moon

Gared -- other moon 

the 'Other(s)' -- comet

Will projected the Others using the tree.  The Others are a projection of the human 'Id'.  That's like 'skinchanging the comet'.  That's why GRRM calls him Shakespeare.  Because no-one could bring words to life (at least not in the English tongue) the way the Bard could.

I don't think the tree is the sun. The tree is the weirwood, and it's the celestial axis, the jacob's ladder which the greenseer can climb tot he heavens - at least, that's how it is acting here. I agree that the Others are the comet, and Waymar the Nissa Nissa moon, and Gared as the ic moon os perfect - he survives, but is haunted, which is exactly how we should think of the ice moon with the black frozen fire meteor inside it. Remember Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, haunted by the ghosts of those he slew? He is the ice moon. The dragon's eye is the Nissa Nissa moon overlaid on the sun - the God's Eye. Serwyn's spear is the comet. In this scenario, the ice moon is perceived as hurling the comet at the sun/moon eclipse eye, essentially. The idea of Serwyn hiding behind his shield suggests his shield as the fire moon, and he as the ice moon being lined up right next to or behind it, depending on your point of view. This is yet another reason why I suspect the ice moon was very close, perhaps in a double eclipse alignment even.  It would have to be in order for someone to look at the sky and see the ice moon (which would look like a crescent if it was nearby but not on top of) as throwing the comet. 

Anyway, the point is that the entire concept of creating myths based on observing nature and celestial events is that it is interpretational. That same set of events can be a moon wandering too close to a sun, or like a sun stabbing a moon, or like the eye of a great celestial dragon being put out. The Serwyn tale gives an interpretation where the ice moon is seen as holding the comet, and the moon-sun conjunction is the victim. But Serwyn is haunted, because he took some black meteor shrapnel.  I'm not saying that this alignment is the one to use here in the prologue, just that we don't have to be completely rigid. George's number one priority is to write a good story, so the astronomy has to be flexible enough to fit different types of scenes, or else it would not work very well.

So getting back to this scene... let's say the Others are the comet (the lightning), and Waymar the NN moon, Gared the ice moon. The sun would have to be either Will (with the Others representing his spirit or his id as you say, sent again the NN moon) or the Others themselves. In the AA myth, AA is the sun, and his sword is the comet. It might be that way with the Others, where they (with their eyes like blue stars) can be the sun, and their swords the comet. But I think Will as the sun works better. 

[LmL]

https://lucifermeanslightbringer.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/maoiaf-wordpress-52.jpg

Look at this image - it's one possible configuration which places the comet in between the ice moon and the god's eye conjunction. You could see it as a tree with the ice moon as the canopy, the comet as the trunk, the sun and NN moon as the root zone, perhaps. 

 

[ravenous reader]

1 hour ago, LmL said:

I don't think the tree is the sun. The tree is the weirwood, and it's the celestial axis, the jacob's ladder which the greenseer can climb tot he heavens - at least, that's how it is acting here.

OK.  But remember it's a fire ladder, like the ladder Dany observes with the fire maege's trick.  Maybe the greenseer is like Lann who steals the gold from the sun in order to brighten (whitewash/limewash) his hair, making the greenseer a kind of sun.   Looking at the Prologue in its own context -- the way you always caution me to -- what I'm seeing is that Will  somehow became empowered with the power of the 'sun' when he climbed the sentinel. Maybe the sentinel is the fool here.  Will is climbing on the back of the giant sentinel.   I see the fire of the gods in a very abstract sense -- it's the 'logos'.  The treacherous words / magical spells he uttered while up the tree (this makes him an oathbreaker, in addition to failing to call out later).  Asking where the 'word' comes from is like asking where magic comes from!

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I agree that the Others are the comet, and Waymar the Nissa Nissa moon, and Gared as the ice moon is perfect - he survives, but is haunted, which is exactly how we should think of the ice moon with the black frozen fire meteor inside it.

And then Gared literally gets a piece of Valyrian steel in the neck -- when Ned beheads him with Ice; whereafter the 'lion star children' or rather 'one white wolf star child' was born!

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Remember Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, haunted by the ghosts of those he slew? He is the ice moon. The dragon's eye is the Nissa Nissa moon overlaid on the sun - the God's Eye. Serwyn's spear is the comet.

This is why I think the sentinel is the sun (sentinels carry spears) with the Others coming from the tree, like the comet as the sun's virtual hand.  When Will is up there it's emphasized he's among the needles -- basically thousands of little spears.  Later on these selfsame needles become 'detached' from the tree, as it were in a shower of needles when the sword shatters, one of which succeeds in impaling Waymar in the eye (comet as broken sword).  The correspondence of the tree's needles with the murder weapon.

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In this scenario, the ice moon is perceived as hurling the comet at the sun/moon eclipse eye, essentially.

How can the ice moon target the soon-to-be fire moon if the fire moon has already been destroyed?

Are you saying the ice moon is not an innocent bystander but in 'cahoots' with the greenseer/sun?  Gared was muttering curses under his breath in the Prologue!  He was none too happy with Waymar's mocking either.

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The idea of Serwyn hiding behind his shield suggests his shield as the fire moon, and he as the ice moon being lined up right next to or behind it, depending on your point of view. This is yet another reason why I suspect the ice moon was very close, perhaps in a double eclipse alignment even.  It would have to be in order for someone to look at the sky and see the ice moon (which would look like a crescent if it was nearby but not on top of) as throwing the comet. 

 

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Anyway, the point is that the entire concept of creating myths based on observing nature and celestial events is that it is interpretational. That same set of events can be a moon wandering too close to a sun, or like a sun stabbing a moon, or like the eye of a great celestial dragon being put out. The Serwyn tale gives an interpretation where the ice moon is seen as holding the comet, and the moon-sun conjunction is the victim.

That's interesting.  Well, to all appearances Gared was held responsible for the showdown in the wood.  He took the fall and was beheaded.  He's identified as the sharp weapon via the anagram in his name 'dager' ...i.e. we are meant to think of 'dagger'.  However, we also know the hidden dagger Will carried between his teeth when he climbed the tree.  So there are two daggers -- the visible and the invisible one.  The latter is the one I believe actually caused the damage.  The symbolism of Will up the tall vaulting grey-green tree uttering magical words to the nameless gods of the wood is just too powerfully associated with greenseers.  I have no idea what Gared was doing all that time.  Was he really with the horses?  What did he witness?  Why did he flee?  Why was he spared by the Others?

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But Serwyn is haunted, because he took some black meteor shrapnel.  I'm not saying that this alignment is the one to use here in the prologue, just that we don't have to be completely rigid.

I agree!  

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George's number one priority is to write a good story, so the astronomy has to be flexible enough to fit different types of scenes, or else it would not work very well.

So getting back to this scene... let's say the Others are the comet (the lightning), and Waymar the NN moon, Gared the ice moon. The sun would have to be either Will (with the Others representing his spirit or his id as you say, sent again the NN moon) or the Others themselves. In the AA myth, AA is the sun, and his sword is the comet. It might be that way with the Others, where they (with their eyes like blue stars) can be the sun, and their swords the comet. But I think Will as the sun works better. 

I don't like the Others as the sun.  In all the available imagery, they are described as pale reflections or shadows of something else which stands a priori to their creation.  In poetry, as @Cowboy Dan has pointed out, the moon's light for example is described as a 'pale fire' vs. the sun's more robust primary illumination.  

Azor Ahai in the Prologue is definitely Will.  He's associated with the colors 'red' and 'black'-- he's a hunter (and don't forget a wordsmith-sorcerer of note -- Will Shakespeare) who was caught 'red-handed' skinning the buck on the eagle's estate for which he was forced to 'take the black' (that's the corruption element typical of Azor Ahai).  When he's up the tree, the telltale sign of his guilt is the 'sticky sap' against his cheek and on his hands.  His hands are not really clean in this affair.

You could read the Others as the progeny of AA's inverse -- the Night's King.  AA 'marries' the sentinel/weirwood tree (actually, he's stuck to it like glue via the sticky sap, a metaphor for blood).  The marriage transforms him into NK .  Together, they make Other babies.  I suppose you could interpret the Others as the ice moon meteor shower.  

I think the reason we're getting confused is that we keep forgetting the whole process is cyclical -- a vicious cycle to be exact; and also we ought to free our minds from concepts such as 'up' or 'down'.  It's the old paradox of which came first -- the burning moon, or the burning tree which enabled the greenseer to burn the moon..?!

48 minutes ago, LmL said:

https://lucifermeanslightbringer.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/maoiaf-wordpress-52.jpg

Look at this image - it's one possible configuration which places the comet in between the ice moon and the god's eye conjunction. You could see it as a tree with the ice moon as the canopy, the comet as the trunk, the sun and NN moon as the root zone, perhaps. 

 

Now turn your logo upside down.  Then the 'ice moon' is the root system of the weirwood giving rise to the grasping branches which reach up to scratch the sky, skinchanging the comet and impaling the moon!  It all depends on your primary reference point. 

[LmL]

51 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

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In this scenario, the ice moon is perceived as hurling the comet at the sun/moon eclipse eye, essentially.

How can the ice moon target the soon-to-be fire moon if the fire moon has already been destroyed?

Are you saying the ice moon is not an innocent bystander but in 'cahoots' with the greenseer/sun?  Gared was muttering curses under his breath in the Prologue!  He was none too happy with Waymar's mocking either.

No, I am saying clear the decks of all the Azor Ahai Nissa Nissa framework. You are from Westeros 8,000 years ago and you have never heard of Azor Ahai.  You look up and see the Gods Eye eclipse - the conjunction of fire moon and sun. It looks like an eye, call it a dragon's eye. There's a comet about to strike this eye, and it's tail juts out... and touches the nearby ice moon, which would appear as a crescent. Being so close to the sun, the ice moon would be invisible until the fire moon blocked the sun, darkening the sky enough to make the ice moon visible. So you, Westerosi ancient, see this as white knight, hurling a comet at this giant dragon's eye. 

It's just a different perspective on the same set of events. In terms of what it has to say about the archetypal characters and their mini drama, I am saying that the sun and moon kill each other with that comet, maybe the ice moon is the one who sent it in some sense. Gave the comet to the sun so he could cause damage with it, ultimately killing himself. Petyr could be the ice moon, which fits for someone who is already under the sea luring people in. He lures one of the moon meteors - Alayne Stone - into the icy Vale where he lives. He himself also models the ice moon in that he has a hint of fiery moon meteor past - he is the lord of harrenhall but doesn't live there, and his sigil used to be a flaming titan's head. Now it's a mockingbird - a trickster bird who lures the unwary. 

I'm not sure of Petyr as an ice moon, by any means. He himself doesn't wear blue or have icy symbolism, does he? Mostly grey and green, right?

[Durran Durrandon]

So, I  you were working hard to fit Santa Claus in there and all, but while you were referencing Doner and Blitzen to associate Beric with thunder and lightning, Donar is actually the Germanic name for Thor. 

Also Thundar the Barbarian has a flaming sun sword, so . .   okay, just kidding about that part.

[Unchained]

18 hours ago, Crowfood's Daughter said:

There are also the three Kingsguard outside guarding King Robert before he dies where Ned thinks about the TOJ as soon as he counts the third Kingsguard.

Three men in white cloaks, he thought, remembering, and a strange chill went through him. Ser Barristan’s face was as pale as his armor. Ned had only to look at him to know that something was dreadfully wrong. The royal steward opened the door. “Lord Eddard Stark, the Hand of the King,” he announced.

Going back to what you are saying about oathbreaking, I was looking at a website that discusses symbolism of certain blazes and charges, and it mentions that the symbolism of a raised hand like the one shown with House Gardener is "a pledge of Faith" for what it is worth.  Maybe there is something to this oathbreaking idea you are mentioning, definitely something that needs exploring.  

 

Raise your right hand and repeat after me.  I Garth the Green do solemnly swear not to cause a big cosmic clusterfuck the consequences of which my descendants will have to deal with thousands of years later.  

 

Seriously though, that is a good find.  I think that it will turn out that any oathbreaking that happened will be a matter of perspective.  I am going to attempt some mythical astronomy related to oaths.  Jamie while impersonating an Other gives a fiery red and black sword named Oathkeeper to an icy moon maid to go rescue Sansa who is the peice of the dead moon inside the one still in the sky.  The Others and whoever is planning on breaking moon #2 may be keeping some sort of oath by doing what they are doing.  I think this is what we are supposed to take from Barristan's rescue of the Mad King at Duskendale.  The Other symbol climbed the walls into the sky and rescued the fire trapped in the ice.   

 

 

EDIT:  I read the comments between the ones I quoted and this post and have a different idea.  Littlefinger does not seem like an ice moon but he manipulates one in Lysa the lady of the Vale sister of the fire moon Catelyn.  Lysa is tricked into a series of events that result in the death of first both their husbands then herself.  I am not sure if the trickster shows up in the sky at all.    Him being the void of space is interesting.  Visenya had a sister rivalry with Rhaenys.  Some think that Visenya poisoned Rhaenys's son, but I cannot think of a way that she killed Rhaenys herself.  I do not think it is out of the question that if she is a poisoner that she also killed Aegon.  Her dragon was the one to set his funeral pyre for what that is worth.  Are there any other bitter ice moon people?  Lady Dustin maybe?       

 

 

 

The green brothers on the isle of faces seem to be an oath keeping brotherhood of watchers.  The black brothers at the wall are, so I think it is likely that the white brothers north of it are as well.  @ravenous reader was the other day comparing the three brothers in the prologue to the three dragons and how the black and white were always fighting and the green was the wildcard.  That applies to the three brotherhoods as well.      

Also, Ravenous, I was thinking out loud about the trial of three judges holding the court of a fourth.  I think that may be a running theme, but I only see parts in the prologue.  I am only certain of the three actors unless you count the Others.  If a fourth unseen trickster actor is present it would have to be someone responsible for sending them after the wildings in some way right?

 

If there were some green solar people who had some sort oath they kept what could we speculate it being?  Were they some sort of guardians of the natural order?  Corn kings are supposed to die for the seasons to change.  Did one decide to live like the Tattered Prince trying to avoid becoming sacrificial royalty? 

 

 

7 hours ago, LmL said:

@Unchained the example of Peter manipulating Robert and Ned works very well for this hypothesis, I am impressed. George even draws attention to this idea with Varys riddle about who really holds the power, and power being a shadow on the wall.  So two main questions: how does this translate in mythical astronomy terms, and how does this manifest in terms of the original deeds of our Long Night heroes?  I have some ideas but I'll just put the question out there first.

 

That is a hell of a couple questions.  In mythical astronomy terms I would expect the tricky greenseer to be watching and not participating like the ice moon.  Or, possibly the trickster got himseld sacrificed which was what he wanted, so he actually rode a grey smoky stallion up to the comet to steer it himself.  I lean toward the ice moon however unless there is a thing in the sky I am not aware of.  Euron is all about getting his brothers to sacrifice themselves for him and King Bob ordered Ned to drink as was discussed on Crowfoods's thread.  Sisters are the same as brothers.  The ice moon set things up to get her sister to be sacrificed.  Think about the mythic astronomy of Duskendale like I tried to interpret above.  The ice moon of Duskendale lured the piece of the fire moon into itself by refusing to pay taxes and inviting the King to talk about it.         

As far as the original deeds go, it must have been a trickster making trouble between two brothers.  One brother was a summer king and one a winter king of death, but they previously got along like Ned and Robert.  Ned and Robert started fighting over whether to kill Dany which only came up because a trickster character Varys told them.

 

Edit:  Littlefinger does not have any signs of being an ice moon, maybe the trickster just works through the bitter ice moon sister who is not the solar king's favorite like Littlefinger plays Lysa Lady of the Vale.           

[LmL]

@Unchained, the name "Duskendale" is interesting because it's basically saying "dark woods," "black woods," "the dark of the wood" (from whence the Others come). It's a tree town, Duskendale, and that works because of my weirwood portal idea. Azor Ahai sends his comet into the fire moon - kaboom - and it is reborn as a black meteor... one of which flies (portals) into the ice moon, getting stuck. So Duskendale can symbolize the weirwoodnet, as I believe it does, and also the ice moon where the dragon is stuck. I'd have to re-read those passages to be sure, but that's my hypothesis. 

44 minutes ago, Unchained said:

Seriously though, that is a good find.  I think that it will turn out that any oathbreaking that happened will be a matter of perspective.  I am going to attempt some mythical astronomy related to oaths.  Jamie while impersonating an Other gives a fiery red and black sword named Oathkeeper to an icy moon maid to go rescue Sansa who is the peice of the dead moon inside the one still in the sky.  The Others and whoever is planning on breaking moon #2 may be keeping some sort of oath by doing what they are doing.  I think this is what we are supposed to take from Barristan's rescue of the Mad King at Duskendale.  The Other symbol climbed the walls into the sky and rescued the fire trapped in the ice.   

So, Ned's sword is the comet. It's split, and Widow's Wail symbolizes the half that killed the Nissa Nissa moon. Oathkeeper is the one destined to hit the ice moon and free the trapped meteor, perhaps. That's the oath it's keeping - to return and keep the Dothraki prophecy about "one day the other moon will kiss the sun too and the dragon will return." The prince that was promised not the returned comet, but the new ice moon meteor children it will give birth too. That is who Jon parallels the best - his mom was an ice moon and his dad a black and red dragon. He represents the Azor Ahai reborn we haven't seen yet - the children of the sun's comet and the ice moon. The meteor that was promised. 

So, Sansa is like a fire moon meteor lodged in the ice moon. Brienne expresses that same symbolism by receiving Oathkeeper - she's a blue moon maiden receiving a black meteor sword, and carrying it around like a black meteor lodged in the ice moon. However, she also acts like the meteor being lodged in the ice moon several times - notably when Biter falls on her like an "avalanche" and starts eating her. That's a huge white moon symbol, eating Brienne (who is like an evenstar here). 

However, to your point, the idea of her taking oathkeeper into the ice moon Vale to rescue Sansa is a great fit for the red comet returning to hit the ice moon and free the theoretically trapped black meteor. Keep in mind this will symbolize the real rebirth of Azor Ahai reborn. That's one reason why I like the idea of dead Jon's body being put in the ice cells while he is in Ghost... that would be like Azor Ahai the black moon meteor slumbering in the ice moon, waiting to be freed by being set on fire. You may recall that in the King of Winter essay I showed a few quotes where wights catch on fire and then show King of Winter symbolism. This would probably be, in MA terms, the ice moon catching on fire when it is hit by the oathkeeper comet. From this ice fire will be born the new King of Winter, some kind of new moon meteor which is ice and fire in some sense. This would parallel Jon's rebirth from the ice, but through fire. Or something. Maybe. 

[LmL]

5 hours ago, Durran Durrandon said:

So, I  you were working hard to fit Santa Claus in there and all, but while you were referencing Doner and Blitzen to associate Beric with thunder and lightning, Donar is actually the Germanic name for Thor. 

Also Thundar the Barbarian has a flaming sun sword, so . .   okay, just kidding about that part.

Oh really? Wow. 

Andyeah, I held off on mentioning thundarr, lol. But there it is! I mean we've all seen the intro. It surely played into Martin's psyche. And you know, in the Thundarr intro, the red comet is actually a "runaway planet." It makes you wonder - was our original comet a rogue moon or something even larger than a comet? I don't really worry about that kind of thing, it doesn't really matter, but there it is. 

[LmL]

15 hours ago, Unchained said:

The green brothers on the isle of faces seem to be an oath keeping brotherhood of watchers.  The black brothers at the wall are, so I think it is likely that the white brothers north of it are as well.  @ravenous reader was the other day comparing the three brothers in the prologue to the three dragons and how the black and white were always fighting and the green was the wildcard.  That applies to the three brotherhoods as well.      

Something occurred to me, regarding this pattern. White, green, black - these are also the colors of the Others in the prologue. It suggests a parallel between the Others and dragons, which is like, duh, obviously. The dragons invade like hot burning stars, and the Others like cold burning stars - that's my favorite way to put it. Dragons represent children of the fire moon, Others children of the ice moon. 

Now in regards to the brotherhoods, I think it works like this. Green is the starting point. This all starts with greenseers. The horned lords are, first and foremost, green men. But they went into the trees, and here I think we have a bifurcation. Green horned lords went in, but black brothers (original resurrected skinchangers of the NW, per my green zombies theory) and white brothers (the Others) came out. This why the Others and Brothers are both watchers, and why they are like inverted parallels in so many ways. 

Now, this might be a bifurcation like as in the soul of one green man splitting somehow, or it might be that some green men that went in the net were impaled on those spears of ice from Bran's dream, if you will, and some didn't and emerged fiery undead. This has been my general notion for a long time. Now @ravenous reader makes the case that fire is the original element, but that's actually doesn't conflict with what I am saying. The original greenseers were the fire of life and vitality and summer sun. But the "fiery undead" that came out were more like frozen fire. They are like dragonglass, black swords in the darkness. It's like they possess the hidden potential to spark fire again, but they are for the moment a dead fire, or like embers in the ashes of a dying fire (an important line of symbolism I am exploring in the next episode). The Others, meanwhile, are fire turned cold. Frozen fire, but in the opposite sense. Cold that burns, fire that has been transformed or inverted. So, you could also say the natural fire goes into the trees, and what we get are in return two opposite forms of mutated fire, the black, frozen fire of the Night's Watch,and the cold burning fire of the white shadows. 

I have written a draft for an essay about green fire / wildfire / weirwood fire, and I can at least say that the wildfire does seem to be symbolizing greenseer stuff (big surprise, right?)

[Unchained]

5 hours ago, LmL said:

Something occurred to me, regarding this pattern. White, green, black - these are also the colors of the Others in the prologue. It suggests a parallel between the Others and dragons, which is like, duh, obviously. The dragons invade like hot burning stars, and the Others like cold burning stars - that's my favorite way to put it. Dragons represent children of the fire moon, Others children of the ice moon. 

Now in regards to the brotherhoods, I think it works like this. Green is the starting point. This all starts with greenseers. The horned lords are, first and foremost, green men. But they went into the trees, and here I think we have a bifurcation. Green horned lords went in, but black brothers (original resurrected skinchangers of the NW, per my green zombies theory) and white brothers (the Others) came out. This why the Others and Brothers are both watchers, and why they are like inverted parallels in so many ways. 

Now, this might be a bifurcation like as in the soul of one green man splitting somehow, or it might be that some green men that went in the net were impaled on those spears of ice from Bran's dream, if you will, and some didn't and emerged fiery undead. This has been my general notion for a long time. Now @ravenous reader makes the case that fire is the original element, but that's actually doesn't conflict with what I am saying. The original greenseers were the fire of life and vitality and summer sun. But the "fiery undead" that came out were more like frozen fire. They are like dragonglass, black swords in the darkness. It's like they possess the hidden potential to spark fire again, but they are for the moment a dead fire, or like embers in the ashes of a dying fire (an important line of symbolism I am exploring in the next episode). The Others, meanwhile, are fire turned cold. Frozen fire, but in the opposite sense. Cold that burns, fire that has been transformed or inverted. So, you could also say the natural fire goes into the trees, and what we get are in return two opposite forms of mutated fire, the black, frozen fire of the Night's Watch,and the cold burning fire of the white shadows. 

I have written a draft for an essay about green fire / wildfire / weirwood fire, and I can at least say that the wildfire does seem to be symbolizing greenseer stuff (big surprise, right?)

Do you think the bifurcation you are exploring could in some sense be the sword that was broken?  

 

I have been thinking about fertility and white swords recently.  It started when I realized that Tyrion's escape from King's Landing may be based on the birth of Perseus, making the morning, dawn light slashing through the window of the room Tywin and Shae are laying in akin to Zeus' fertile golden shower.  Tyrion has a green eye, a black eye, and hair that is almost white so when he bursts from the wooden barrel he is all three dragons being born.  Like you said in this episode, Cronus castrating his father is another inspiration for the moon meteor shower.  From the blood of the castration were born the Giants(weirwoods trees are giants), the Furies (I think Lady Stoneheart is a Fury and is of course a great tree symbol), and the Ash tree nymphs (obviously).  Then there is the sea foam that births the goddess of fertility.  Looking at this I do not think it is a stretch to connect Aphrodite to the white meteor that Dawn may have been made from.  Due to the 'starlight and seafoam' quote you mentioned Dany is an Aphrodite white sword, and when she walks into the pyre the three different colored dragons are born.  So if white and black brothers are inverses of each other and the black ones still contain the embers of the fire of life, do the Others have anything like that?  Maybe black brothers swear not to have children because they are symbolically not supposed to be able to.  Others and white sword people on the other hand can have children, but, lacking the spark of life, they have dead children.  Accordingly, the Others have the dead wights and Dany has a stillborn.  @ravenous reader posted a very detailed analysis on the 'What is Ghost' thread about how weirwood trees, dragons, Valyrians, and albinos may all be ghosts and dead things.  If I were to get even more speculative I could guess at how the sword gets reforged.  @GloubieBoulga pointed out how Elenei giving up her immortality to be with Durran sounds like Arwen.  Combining moon maidens with falling evenstar women seems to be a GRRM invention, but falling star women are everywhere.  Arwen is one.  Her names include Undomiel which means evenstar.  In the movies she actually gives a necklace named the Evenstar to Aragorn.  I think because of this we can draw a direct connection between Aragorn and Arwen to Jon and Dany, which is something that I think is an obvious thing to look for.  If they were to ever have a child it could be the reforged sword with all the qualities of the pre-bifurcation green people.  

 

About the actual essay this thread is based on, I feel like we are ones impaled on the tree, staring into the abyss trying to learn how to understand and use GRRM's runes.  Sacrificing one's self to one's self sounds a lot like when Dany fought her brother in the hollow hill at Vaes Dothrak.  Dany tells him that if Drogo ever finds out what happened, he will feed him his own entrails.   Hanging entrails on a tree is an established sacrifice to the old gods.  I wondered what that was about the last time I read it.  It seemed that Drogo should feed the guts to the birds, dogs, or bleed him out on the grass.  Feeding himself to himself makes more sense now.  Do you think the blood betrayal could have been a case of sacrificing someone else instead of one's self as should be done?

 

       

 

                     

[ravenous reader]

On 4/1/2017 at 5:05 PM, LmL said:

Well, consider also the idea of the unseen player. At Ned's execution, Joff is the sun, Payne his comet sword, and Ned the Nissa Nissa... where is Petyr? Just standing by, smiling. I am wondering if this trickster / manipulator who "keep his hands clean" might be something like "the stranger," which in astronomy terms is the night sky, space, the void, etc. Petyr is sometimes like a merling King figure, who is already within the sea and lures people into it. 

It could be that the horned lord figure is the comet, and the sun is the manipulator who keeps his hands clean (at first). Joff sent the Catspaw, and I interpret that as the sun sending the comet, so Baelish is a solar figure. At Ned's execution, he essentially overlaps with Joffrey as someone who caused Ilyn Payne to act without himself swinging a sword.

I wanted to add something to the discussion we had earlier.  On second thought, I think you may have a point about the unseen player or greenseer-figure as the Stranger, the night sky, space, the void.  It makes sense that the greenseer going into the trees undergoes a dispersion of identity, an expansion of power, which is at the same time a dissolution of individuality -- hence all the watery and drowning imagery associated with greenseers and greenseer transformation ('anything could be moving under that sea')  -- so pinpointing an exact figure in our schema is difficult.  By definition, the greenseer is faceless and nameless, while at the same time inhabiting many faces and names.  A creature of the shadows. The one behind the mask.  Previously, I even argued on another thread that the answer to Varys's Riddle is that power is paradoxically located where it is not!  It's not even a shadow on the wall.  A shadow on the wall is visible, versus the one casting that shadow who is invisible. (Therefore, trying to locate the actual, not apparent, source of power is as difficult as trying to locate the eunuch's genitals...).  

Regardless of the various ways humans on the ground may choose to reconstruct the events in the sky using stories in order to understand their meaning, it's not true however that the sun or the ice moon actually wielded the comet.  It only seems that way due to the close proximity of those particular players to each other, as you explained.  In reality, the comet's origins are inscrutable and dark.  It's 'sent' by an invisible player pulling the strings behind the scenes, just as Littlefinger or Euron bring about kingslayings at a distance from the action (and, celestially speaking, what could be more distant than 'deep space' which is the ultimate 'deep (green) sea'?).   Considering the description you gave of the tree as the celestial axis, then perhaps the greenseer 'lost among the needles', roots or leaves, represents the space between stars, instead of the stars/suns themselves.  From the darkness he weaves with light (the darkness and the mother's milk imagery evoking the Milky Way).  As Alan Garner writes in his book 'The Guizer: A Book of Fools' regarding the Trickster archetype:

Quote

If we take the elements from which our emotions are built and give them separate names such as Mother, Hero, Father, King, Child, Queen, the element that I think marks most of us is that of the Fool. It is where our humanity lies. For the Fool is the advocate of uncertainty: he is at once creator and destroyer, bringer of help and harm. He draws a boundary for chaos, so that we can make sense of the rest. He is the shadow that shapes the light. Psychology calls him Trickster. I have called him Guizer. Guizer is the proper word for an actor in a mumming play. He is comical, grotesque, stupid, cunning, ambiguous. He is sometimes part animal, and always part something else. The something else is what is so special. He is the dawning godhead in Man.

Paul Radin emphasizes the amoral dimension of this figure in his book 'The Trickster':

Quote

… at one and the same time creator and destroyer, giver and negator, he who dupes others and is always duped himself. He wills nothing consciously. At all times he is constrained to behave as he does from impulses over which he has no control. He knows neither good or evil yet he is responsible for both. He possesses no values, moral or social, is at the mercy of his passions and appetites, yet through his actions all values come into being … Laughter, humour and irony permeate everything Trickster does … he is primarily an inchoate being of undetermined proportions, a figure foreshadowing the shape of man.

 

[LmL]

4 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

he is primarily an inchoate being of undetermined proportions, a figure foreshadowing the shape of man.

Sounds like primordial chaos, in a way. That was all really good stuff, thanks for sharing your thoughts as always.

The idea of the greenseer being in the void, the stranger, works very similar to your notion that the greenseer on earth does not have a celestial analog... unless you count space itself. But space is the ultimate womb and tomb, and this is perhaps most vividly expressed in the form of Kali, one of my favorite goddesses. I have spotted specific Kali references in ASOIAF, so I know for a fact it's an idea Martin is working with. Kali embodies everything Martin wants to say about winter and darkness - the womb and the tomb. Fearsome, but cleansing. Kali also exists before and after all things, devouring the universe at the end and then creating (or helping to create) a new one.

The Stranger is the wanderer from far places, and he's a shadow with stars for eyes. He's the night sky, and he's also the comet - or we might regard the comet as his seed or consciousness in the same way I talk about the comet being the sun's seed and consciousness in a certain sense.

Also, everything you had there about the fool plays into the idea of lucifer or prometheus, the fire stealer.  Hubris and foolishness are not much different really. Yet these are also our explorers and pioneers... I feel like martin is exploring both sides of that coin. Most of the time, I feel like he is telling is that the fire of the gods might be, on the whole, a negative thing, but the bottom line is that it is inevitable that man will reach for it, just as it is inevitable that some men will dominate others. The fire of the gods is just another vehicle for martin to offer commentary on power and what it does to those who wield it and those they wield it on.  

 

[ravenous reader]

2 hours ago, Unchained said:

Do you think the blood betrayal could have been a case of sacrificing someone else instead of one's self as should be done?

Yes.  That is the crux of it.

[LmL]

2 hours ago, Unchained said:

About the actual essay this thread is based on, I feel like we are ones impaled on the tree, staring into the abyss trying to learn how to understand and use GRRM's runes.  

Truer words were never spoken, lol. 

2 hours ago, Unchained said:

Sacrificing one's self to one's self sounds a lot like when Dany fought her brother in the hollow hill at Vaes Dothrak.  Dany tells him that if Drogo ever finds out what happened, he will feed him his own entrails.   Hanging entrails on a tree is an established sacrifice to the old gods.  I wondered what that was about the last time I read it.  It seemed that Drogo should feed the guts to the birds, dogs, or bleed him out on the grass.  Feeding himself to himself makes more sense now.  Do you think the blood betrayal could have been a case of sacrificing someone else instead of one's self as should be done?

Cat rakes her own face, and when Varmyr merges with Thistle, they claw out their own eyes and bite out their own tongue. The weirwoods have the same symbolism - bloody eyes and mouth, and their silent scream implies a tongue torn out - and I think they eat their own in some sense. The rat cook story is about weirwoods eating their own too, I think. It could be that because one's ancestors are likely to be in the weirwood tree (if one is a greenseer), when you sacrifice yourself to the tree and let it start eating you (body and mind), that is like the weirwood eating its children. @ravenous reader, does that explanation satisfy you?