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So, metal...


NorthGirl

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6 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

Noye probably thought that he would never be able to become "steel".

Which again brings me to the Medieval Tendency to judge things solely by their outward appearances, that the quote says more about Noye than about the Baratheon Brothers and that both steel and copper were only surfaces that hid how alike the Brothers were.

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17 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Donal Noyne met the Baratheon brothers before the timeline of the books, so that assessment applies for former times.

And indeed, Robert was the steel hard but flexible, but years of kingship rusted him away, losing his edge.

Stannis was the iron, hard but brittle and shattered at the Blackwater, but iron is the main material of steel and Stannis changed and was templed, and we see him at the Wall.

And Renly? Well, we know what happened to Renly

Agreed his assessment is rather dated but true enough at the time methinks.

Also Renly got Shadow babied, he probably would have won the whole damn thing but then the story would have been over.

6 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

Which again brings me to the Medieval Tendency to judge things solely by their outward appearances, that the quote says more about Noye than about the Baratheon Brothers and that both steel and copper were only surfaces that hid how alike the Brothers were.

I agree so much on this notion. Also reminds of fans delusions that Tyrion will somehow be accepted back by Westeros et al while being the Demon Monkey Imp Kinslayer Kingslayer. We as fans need to learn that our views are certainly not the same as the notions of the people of Westeros.

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20 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

Which again brings me to the Medieval Tendency to judge things solely by their outward appearances, that the quote says more about Noye than about the Baratheon Brothers and that both steel and copper were only surfaces that hid how alike the Brothers were.

It's not so simple. For example, Sansa judged Cersei and Joff by their outward appearance and paid the price. But the mistake really was that she stopped looking too soon - once she identified them as the royalty of fairytales, she stopped observing and judging their behaviour.

One of Syrio's most important lessons was the story of the yellow cat - ie look with your eyes and don't be led astray by what you think you know.

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The way I read the Donal Noye quote was that Donal was a blacksmith that understood the qualities of metal and how to use them. Therefore maybe we should look at the quote as how people use the Barra brothers and how they in turn use the people around them. I should take this moment to say that I am no expert in blacksmith technique!

Robert was steel as that he was tried and tested in battle and had good social skills but once he got what he wanted (sort of) he disregarded others and let the kingdom rot whilst he whored and drank his days away. Steel is hard and dependable and has the highest melting point compared to the other metals. Robert was the most stubborn and independent of the brothers being the eldest and used to having his own way so very few people were able to work with him.

Stannis is iron and breaks before bending. He broke because, in his mind, Robert always had the best of everything and he was the morose, middle child with the inferiority complex. His childhood wounds were salted after he felt ignored by the small council and was not given much credit for holding Storms End during the Roberts Rebellion. This made him easily manipulated by the charismatic Mel and her worship of the Lord of Light. Figuratively the fires of the Lord of Light have softened and reshaped him into the weapon that does the Lord's/Mel's work.

Renly the little we saw of him he seemed to have waaay more social skills than Stann and had the most popular appeal amongst the lords (and ladies). But as Noye points out he was copper which is easily melted down and thus Renly is the first to fall in a war that he seems to be over confident in. Renly's confidence and attempted political maneuvering with Ned even makes me wonder if Renly had Loras/Margery whispering in his ear telling him what to do and how to do it.

 

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3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

It's not so simple. For example, Sansa judged Cersei and Joff by their outward appearance and paid the price. But the mistake really was that she stopped looking too soon - once she identified them as the royalty of fairytales, she stopped observing and judging their behaviour.

One of Syrio's most important lessons was the story of the yellow cat - ie look with your eyes and don't be led astray by what you think you know.

I don't really know what you want to say with that.

My point was that Noye's judgment was unfair because he went by appearances and his own prejudices. And that people in the RL Middle Ages/Renaisance tended to judge people by their appearances and superficial qualities even more so than people do that today.

Nowhere did I say that judging people like that was a good idea.

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