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Angel Eyes

Why a betrothal between Sansa and Joffrey?

34 posts in this topic

Where was Margaery intended for Robert?

Politically, Asha makes sense because it would tie the Greyjoys to the crown. Would Balon go to war against his kin? Also, I'd get a laugh out of Asha not taking shit from Joffrey and whacking him around. 

 

Edited by Angel Eyes

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On 9/15/2017 at 6:44 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Where was Margaery intended for Robert?

Politically, Asha makes sense because it would tie the Greyjoys to the crown. Would Balon go to war against his kin? Also, I'd get a laugh out of Asha not taking shit from Joffrey and whacking him around. 

Renly and the Tyrells were scheming to make Margaery Robert's new wife.

Asha doesn't make any sense politically, because everybody else in Westeros hates the Ironborn.

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On 9/15/2017 at 11:44 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Where was Margaery intended for Robert?

Politically, Asha makes sense because it would tie the Greyjoys to the crown. Would Balon go to war against his kin? Also, I'd get a laugh out of Asha not taking shit from Joffrey and whacking him around. 

 

As @Colonel Green explained, Renly planned for Robert to set Cersei aside and take Margaery for his new queen.

Also, Asha is, what 10/12 years older than Joffrey? Coming from the poorest and least relevant of the Seven Kingdom? Robert already proved that he and his Kingdom can deal easily with Balon, so there was no need for political alliance. 

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4 hours ago, Risto said:

As @Colonel Green explained, Renly planned for Robert to set Cersei aside and take Margaery for his new queen.

Also, Asha is, what 10/12 years older than Joffrey? Coming from the poorest and least relevant of the Seven Kingdom? Robert already proved that he and his Kingdom can deal easily with Balon, so there was no need for political alliance. 

Was it legal to set a queen aside? Seems like it's never been done in the history of the Iron Throne.

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6 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Was it legal to set a queen aside? Seems like it's never been done in the history of the Iron Throne.

Legal or not, that was the plan. We know Renly was not a man to be trifled with the legalities. Besides, the King is the Law. I think that we are to reveal the extent of the games played right before Jon Arryn's death. When Robert said to Ned that war is coming, we took it just as the foreshadowing, but could it be that Robert really knew the extent of some games played around him? Can you imagine Lannisters having to deal with the force of the Crown, Tyrells, Starks, Arryns and Tullys. They would have no allies in Greyjoys or Martells. We know that Tywin was more than eager to have Robert Arryn being raised in Casterly Rock. So, pieces were already moving and it didn't look good for Lannisters.

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On 4.09.2017 at 3:33 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Bran and Myrcella

 

On 4.09.2017 at 3:33 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Rickon and Myrcella 

The princess and the second, or even third son?

On 4.09.2017 at 3:33 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Tommen and Sansa

 

On 4.09.2017 at 3:33 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Tommen and Arya

If Joffrey already had a bride (other than the other Stark girl), then sure, but he didn't, so his marriage comes first. Also, Tommen is a child, and the youngest of his siblings, and those were the times of peace, so no need to have him bethroted.

Joffrey and Arya? (I know that this isn't included, but it's one of the options) Why her if her older, more beautiful and ladylike sister is avaiable? On Ned's part he also would have known that having Arya anywhere near similar role would have been a disaster while Sansa wanted to marry a prince.

On 4.09.2017 at 3:33 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Robb and Myrcella

Maaaaybe, but as others pointed out, the marriage of Joff comes before Robb's in importance. Also it's the family of the bride that 'gives' her to the family of the groom, not the other way around. Since the Baratheons are the more important family it makes more sense to have Sansa sent to the court than Myrcella to some distant, frozen wasteland. Plus, given Myrcella's age, there's more waiting.

Joffrey might have been a little shit but he had to be married off. And he was supposed to become the king, so he couldn't just go to waste. It's understandable that Robert wanted whom he regarded as the best wife material for him, and not giving him some daughter of a lord he didn't like and making them repeating himself-Cersei scenario. Aside of politics and being a sentimental fool, Robert probably also hoped that Joffrey would have somehow improve under the influence of the people he (Robert) trusted and respected.

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17 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

Renly and the Tyrells were scheming to make Margaery Robert's new wife.

Asha doesn't make any sense politically, because everybody else in Westeros hates the Ironborn.

And how well would that go down with Robert? 

That's true about nobody liking the Ironborn. I just got a kick out of the idea of an action girl like Asha in a marriage with Joffrey, considering that Asha could whack him around several times over.

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2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

And how well would that go down with Robert? 

That's true about nobody liking the Ironborn. I just got a kick out of the idea of an action girl like Asha in a marriage with Joffrey, considering that Asha could whack him around several times over.

You mean, Margaery plot? I assume given his hatred towards Cersei, rather well.

At this point, I am not sure what we discuss. I understand you LIKE the Asha/Joffrey marriage better, but as has been repeatedly said, from political perspective, it makes no sense. Not to mention the fact that Asha is significantly older than Joffrey and not rather desirable bride. In that respect, Myrcella, Sansa, Margaery, Arya and Arianne were the most desirable brides in Westeros, given their status. 

Sansa/Joffrey made perfect sense for Robert. And, on paper, it is a perfect union. Unfortunately for the pairing, Joffrey was who he was.

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Yeah, how well would Robert take getting Margaery put in his bed? 

I don't necessarily like an Asha/Joffrey pairing, but I'd get a laugh out of it. If I had my way, Joffrey wouldn't get anyone, but he's still the heir so he has to get betrothed. 

Edited by Angel Eyes

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On 9/17/2017 at 4:13 PM, Tianzi said:

 

The princess and the second, or even third son?

 

If Joffrey already had a bride (other than the other Stark girl), then sure, but he didn't, so his marriage comes first. Also, Tommen is a child, and the youngest of his siblings, and those were the times of peace, so no need to have him bethroted.

Maaaaybe, but as others pointed out, the marriage of Joff comes before Robb's in importance. Also it's the family of the bride that 'gives' her to the family of the groom, not the other way around. Since the Baratheons are the more important family it makes more sense to have Sansa sent to the court than Myrcella to some distant, frozen wasteland. Plus, given Myrcella's age, there's more waiting.

Joffrey might have been a little shit but he had to be married off. And he was supposed to become the king, so he couldn't just go to waste. It's understandable that Robert wanted whom he regarded as the best wife material for him, and not giving him some daughter of a lord he didn't like and making them repeating himself-Cersei scenario. Aside of politics and being a sentimental fool, Robert probably also hoped that Joffrey would have somehow improve under the influence of the people he (Robert) trusted and respected.

On the other hand, Tyrek Lannister was married to Ermesande Hayford, who was an infant. So age is no barrier. And then Ermesande possibly became the first bride to be widowed before she was weaned. 

The point is, Sansa's betrothal to Joffrey was a stupid idea and Ned was stupid to not see how much of a (insert four-letter expletive) Joffrey was. No father should want what Sansa went through.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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6 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

On the other hand, Tyrek Lannister was married to Ermesande Hayford, who was an infant. So age is no barrier. And then Ermesande possibly became the first bride to be widowed before she was weaned. 

The point is, Sansa's betrothal to Joffrey was a stupid idea and Ned was stupid to not see how much of a (insert four-letter expletive) Joffrey was. No father should want what Sansa went through.

Age is not barrier only in dire circumstances, or during the war. The usual practice of arranging marriage is matching two people who "click". That is the way the political union that depends on the marriage is stable. Because if the marriage fails, so does the union. Hence the need for proper matchmaking.

You still have not made the point that the idea of marrying Crown Prince and firstborn daughter of Warden of the North is actually bad. On paper, this match works, especially having that they are of similar age and that, it seems, both are rather beautiful. Yes, Ned was stupid for not seeing who Joffrey is, but that speaks nothing of the idea of union. The idea itself was good. Other things went against it.

Edited by Risto

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17 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

On the other hand, Tyrek Lannister was married to Ermesande Hayford, who was an infant. So age is no barrier. And then Ermesande possibly became the first bride to be widowed before she was weaned. 

The point is, Sansa's betrothal to Joffrey was a stupid idea and Ned was stupid to not see how much of a (insert four-letter expletive) Joffrey was. No father should want what Sansa went through.

Ned tried to back away once he fully realized what Sansa was getting into.

That said, he was in no easy position either, telling the king: 'hmm, let's see if your son is worthy of my daughter' was not really an option.

As for Tyrek and his baby bride, Risto said it: war circumstances. And also this force called Tywin Lannister.

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On 9/21/2017 at 5:16 AM, Risto said:

Age is not barrier only in dire circumstances, or during the war. The usual practice of arranging marriage is matching two people who "click". That is the way the political union that depends on the marriage is stable. Because if the marriage fails, so does the union. Hence the need for proper matchmaking.

You still have not made the point that the idea of marrying Crown Prince and firstborn daughter of Warden of the North is actually bad. On paper, this match works, especially having that they are of similar age and that, it seems, both are rather beautiful. Yes, Ned was stupid for not seeing who Joffrey is, but that speaks nothing of the idea of union. The idea itself was good. Other things went against it.

Well, I'll concede that it was a good idea on paper, but Ned was stupid not to see Joffrey's true colors and tell Sansa.

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18 hours ago, Tianzi said:

Ned tried to back away once he fully realized what Sansa was getting into.

Was it on Trident? Nope. Actually, Ned wanted to back away when he fully realized what he was getting into with Robert. Joffrey's behavior was not the instigator of his decision.

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, I'll concede that it was a good idea on paper, but Ned was stupid not to see Joffrey's true colors and tell Sansa.

Ned was stupid, to the point he was almost negligent. And well, he paid that with his life.

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