"Friend Zone" as Rape Culture and the Alpha\Beta Dichotomy

[Rippounet]

11 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

The justice system seems to take rape pretty seriously from what I can tell.

It does if i) the crime is reported and ii) the prosecutor doesn't propose or accept a plea bargain.

[DunderMifflin]

11 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

It does if i) the crime is reported and ii) the prosecutor doesn't propose or accept a plea bargain.

Aren't most crimes the same way?

Is it lack of effort when murders aren't solved because there r a lot of those that don't get solved

[Rippounet]

7 minutes ago, White Walker Texas Ranger said:

In my experience, men who are considered successful with women (even the assholes) tend to have a lot of female friends. Well, they tend to have a lot of friends in general. There may be some level of sexual attraction in a lot of those relationships, but I don't think the entirely precludes friendship.

I also know of some women who have been 'friend-zoned' by men. They didn't react terribly, but they also didn't take rejection with as much dignity and grace as suggested a lot in this thread.

I mean, people react badly to getting rejected. I'm not sure how you can tie that definitively to rape culture.

The link is weak, but not inexistant.

One of my friends had the habit of inviting many people to his place and offer them alcohol and drugs. Several girls would take advantage of that and then sleep at his place, in his bed. Most of his friends including myself saw it as "friendzoning" because we knew he was attracted to them and got rejected whenever he made a move. Eventually he had sex with one. The following morning the first things she said were "where am I?" and "have we had sex?" It shook him up pretty badly because he realized that she had not been in any condition to actually give consent. He ended up dating her for a few weeks but he still called it rape, and kept wondering whether she would have dated him if he'd not made a move on her when she was wasted.
In a similar circumstance, one of his friends was accused of rape, though in that case it seems that there had been violence.

The friendzone is mostly bullshit, but there are specific cases when a toxic relationship can lead to a sense of entitlement by the person being "friendzoned." This in turn can lead to a situation where the consent is not clear, especially when there is booze and/or drugs involved. I wouldn't generalise, but I wouldn't dismiss the link either.

[Myshkin]

40 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

The justice system seems to take rape pretty seriously from what I can tell. Some people get found innocent but that's the price of not having a dictatorship. 

Rape is often investigated from a starting point of disbelief. It's one of the reasons so many rapes go unreported. Imagine your home getting burglarized and the police not believing that it actually happened. Rape victims are often accused of being at fault for their own rapes. They were drunk, they were wearing revealing clothes, they were leading the rapist on. Imagine being told the burglary was your own fault because you left a window unlocked, or because you made your house look too appealing to burglars. Convicted rapists, particularly young white guys, are often given more lenient sentences than they have any right to. They made a mistake, they didn't understand, they have a bright future in front of them. Imagine the person who burgled your house, and still has all your shit, getting probation because they're young and have a bright future in front of them. Rape is absolutely treated differently than other crimes in our criminal justice system, but it's not so much a systemic failure as a cultural one. Just because there are strict laws in the books regarding rape doesn't mean that the human beings investigating, prosecuting, and judging rape cases actually take them seriously. And this is not to say that there aren't plenty of people in the criminal justice system that do take rape cases seriously, but everybody in the system takes burglary cases seriously, and sadly that is not the case with rape.

[DunderMifflin]

27 minutes ago, Myshkin said:

Rape is often investigated from a starting point of disbelief. It's one of the reasons so many rapes go unreported. Imagine your home getting burglarized and the police not believing that it actually happened. Rape victims are often accused of being at fault for their own rapes. They were drunk, they were wearing revealing clothes, they were leading the rapist on. Imagine being told the burglary was your own fault because you left a window unlocked, or because you made your house look too appealing to burglars. Convicted rapists, particularly young white guys, are often given more lenient sentences than they have any right to. They made a mistake, they didn't understand, they have a bright future in front of them. Imagine the person who burgled your house, and still has all your shit, getting probation because they're young and have a bright future in front of them. Rape is absolutely treated differently than other crimes in our criminal justice system, but it's not so much a systemic failure as a cultural one. Just because there are strict laws in the books regarding rape doesn't mean that the human beings investigating, prosecuting, and judging rape cases actually take them seriously. And this is not to say that there aren't plenty of people in the criminal justice system that do take rape cases seriously, but everybody in the system takes burglary cases seriously, and sadly that is not the case with rape.

Ive certainly witnessed this more than once. Ive Also seen them actually believe it but be like "so what" i don't give a fuk about your shitty house. And also seen them be the theives themselves.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

3 hours ago, DunderMifflin said:

Step #1 

I'm a dead man walking. 

Step 2 and 3 on deck

Perhaps that was worded to harshly. A Rape Culture skeptic? Is that a more acceptable term? I'm not meaning to martyr you. I'm not calling you a rapist.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 hour ago, Myshkin said:

Rape is often investigated from a starting point of disbelief. It's one of the reasons so many rapes go unreported. Imagine your home getting burglarized and the police not believing that it actually happened. 

Unfortunately, that is pretty much the baseline attitude when it comes to reporting a home burglary. They are not there to investigate/solve the crime, they are there to compile a list for your insurer.

That's not exactly what you're talking about I know, but there's a similar vibe to it. Not disbelief necessarily (although that might come into play if they suspect fraud) but more extreme disinterest. They know full well that they are not going to investigate, so about the best you're going to get is "sorry, let's get back to catalouging what was taken."

 

[Kelli Fury]

2 hours ago, DunderMifflin said:

The justice system seems to take rape pretty seriously from what I can tell. Some people get found innocent but that's the price of not having a dictatorship. 

HAhahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Okay DM, just google untested rape kits for a second and we will wait here for you to explain how that's taking rape pretty seriously.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Speaking of Rape Culture, it looks like things are heating up for old Bill O'Really...

/WE'RE DOING IT LIVE!

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

6 hours ago, Myshkin said:

Bill Cosby spent decades raping women, and people like Dave Chappelle are still trying to excuse him for it. If you want to see rape culture in action, all you have to do is open your eyes.

I meant to ask you about this claim as well. Just finished the 2nd Chapelle Netflix special and was wondering where you thought he defended Cosby. He made some jokes centered around the Cosby rapes, which I know some here find to be totally unacceptable. I've never understood this point of view, Comedy = Tragedy + Time is a cornerstone concept in stand-up. He compares the suffering of women unfavorably when compared to the suffering of blacks after describing a situation where a hysterical woman rushed the stage at one of his shows after he had made the Cosby jokes. If he defended or excused Cosby at any point I missed it.

[Myshkin]

52 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I meant to ask you about this claim as well. Just finished the 2nd Chapelle Netflix special and was wondering where you thought he defended Cosby. He made some jokes centered around the Cosby rapes, which I know some here find to be totally unacceptable. I've never understood this point of view, Comedy = Tragedy + Time is a cornerstone concept in stand-up. He compares the suffering of women unfavorably when compared to the suffering of blacks after describing a situation where a hysterical woman rushed the stage at one of his shows after he had made the Cosby jokes. If he defended or excused Cosby at any point I missed it.

He tells a verifiably untrue story about Bill Cosby paying for the PA system used during Martin Luther King Jr's "I Have a Dream" speech, and ends the story with these words: He rapes, but he saves. And he saves more than he rapes. But he probably does rape.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

4 minutes ago, Myshkin said:

He tells a verifiably untrue story about Bill Cosby paying for the PA system used during Martin Luther King Jr's "I Have a Dream" speech, and ends the story with these words: He rapes, but he saves. And he saves more than he rapes. But he probably does rape.

Took that as more of a joke than anything else. Not a statement that I'd care to defend much, but I think mostly he's expressing how hard it is to watch a childhood hero take a fall. Controversial for sure, but I'm not sure he's meaning to defend him.

[Myshkin]

The he saves more than he rapes part seems to pretty clearly be a defense, at least to me. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

12 minutes ago, Myshkin said:

The he saves more than he rapes part seems to pretty clearly be a defense, at least to me. 

Yeah, fair point. Hard to parse it as anything less.

[The Anti-Targ]

I thought the friend zone was when person A is definitely romantically interested in person B. But Person B has no romantic inclinations at all for person A.

At the extreme end would be where a conversion from friendship to a romantic relationship is impossible because of incompatible sexual orientations. So the person who has romantic aspirations is hopelessly stuck in the friend zone, because a romantic relationship is simply off the table, forever.

My own situation with my wife was a friendship that became a marriage. So it's obviously ridiculous to think that there is this permanent state called a friend zone when some of the fundamental compatibility requirements (like sexual orientation) are met. In my view, best friends are frequently the best long term romantic partners. So I would say for anyone having a hard time finding decent romantic partners from the gen pop, start browsing the friend zone.

[Theda Baratheon]

8 hours ago, White Walker Texas Ranger said:

In my experience, men who are considered successful with women (even the assholes) tend to have a lot of female friends. Well, they tend to have a lot of friends in general. There may be some level of sexual attraction in a lot of those relationships, but I don't think the entirely precludes friendship.

I also know of some women who have been 'friend-zoned' by men. They didn't react terribly, but they also didn't take rejection with as much dignity and grace as suggested a lot in this thread.

I mean, people react badly to getting rejected. I'm not sure how you can tie that definitively to rape culture.

Where in this thread has anyone said that women are the epitome of dignity and grace lol because I really don't think women and men react *all* that differently to a lot of things and comments from women about other women can definitely be included when talking about rape culture. 

 

[butterbumps!]

4 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

I thought the friend zone was when person A is definitely romantically interested in person B. But Person B has no romantic inclinations at all for person A.

At the extreme end would be where a conversion from friendship to a romantic relationship is impossible because of incompatible sexual orientations. So the person who has romantic aspirations is hopelessly stuck in the friend zone, because a romantic relationship is simply off the table, forever.

My own situation with my wife was a friendship that became a marriage. So it's obviously ridiculous to think that there is this permanent state called a friend zone when some of the fundamental compatibility requirements (like sexual orientation) are met. In my view, best friends are frequently the best long term romantic partners. So I would say for anyone having a hard time finding decent romantic partners from the gen pop, start browsing the friend zone.

I think the term "friendzone" is coded with an underlying idea of entitlement.   As I understand it, one uses that term to suggest that a party, usually male, was owed affection back by another party, usually female. 

Not every situation where one's affection goes unreturned is "friendzoning."   It's reserved for situations where it is presupposed that one of the parties should be returning the other's affections, that the other is entitled to it.   So presupposition of entitlement has everything to do with that particular term, as I understand.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

3 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Where in this thread has anyone said that women are the epitome of dignity and grace lol because I really don't think women and men react *all* that differently to a lot of things and comments from women about other women can definitely be included when talking about rape culture. 

 

Sorry as being unclear. I was just saying that nobody reacts to being rejected with as much dignity and grace as Scott suggests people should.

[DunderMifflin]

10 hours ago, Kelli Fury said:

HAhahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Okay DM, just google untested rape kits for a second and we will wait here for you to explain how that's taking rape pretty seriously.

Rape kits exist and they are allowed to be used in the conviction(as they should be)

As opposed to deeming rape kits as inadmissable, which would be closer to not taking it seriously.

[Tyria]

13 hours ago, DunderMifflin said:

The justice system seems to take rape pretty seriously from what I can tell. Some people get found innocent but that's the price of not having a dictatorship. 

Wow. Yeah, like this case. He was found with the woman half naked and passed out in the back of his cab, he had his pants down, had her DNA on him, had a history of complaints against him, and he was still found not guilty, because "the Crown failed to produce any evidence of lack of consent at any time" (she might have said yes before she passed out!).

Oh, if you didn't read the article, he was found with the woman by a police officer. And he still got away with it. That's some super serious justice right there.