KiDisaster Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 3 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said: No such point being made here. The closest I've come to that is failing to understand the relevance/insistence of calling it a culture. And I'm still failing to see where all this "rape isn't that bad" attitude is coming from(in context with other crime). There are rapes and murders in movies, sometimes they are portrayed seriously, sometimes comedic. Though I struggle to find recent examples of rape comedy in movies I'm sure it happens. I know "entitlement" gets thrown out like a bad word but entitlement is valid when one is actually entitled. People are completely entitled to desire to have sex with anyone they want, even though that desire could possibly lead to rape. People are entitled to drive their cars even though the possibility of engaging in car accident culture exists. No they aren't. Driving is a privilege, not a right. That's the first thing they tell you in any driver's ed course or book. If you can't demonstrate an understanding of the rules of the road and the capability to operate a car responsibly you don't get to have a license. If you want to go for a drive without a license that's on you but there are consequences for that. Horrible analogy, even ignoring the fact that comparing rape to a car accident is pretty fucking gross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DunderMifflin Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 5 minutes ago, KiDisaster said: No they aren't. Driving is a privilege, not a right. That's the first thing they tell you in any driver's ed course or book. If you can't demonstrate an understanding of the rules of the road and the capability to operate a car responsibly you don't get to have a license. If you want to go for a drive without a license that's on you but there are consequences for that. Horrible analogy, even ignoring the fact that comparing rape to a car accident is pretty fucking gross. I've done all that so I'm now completely entitled to drive. If this is advocating some sort of drivers ed equivalent requirement before having sex, idk I'd have to ponder how I feel about that. And I've seen a couple of horrible car crashes, people can be seriously hurt in them. Paralyzation, death, mutilation of the body can happen. They can go pretty bad, I don't think they are anything to be dismissed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiDisaster Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 8 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said: I've done all that so I'm now completely entitled to drive. If this is advocating some sort of drivers ed equivalent requirement before having sex, idk I'd have to ponder how I feel about that. And I've seen a couple of horrible car crashes, people can be seriously hurt in them. Paralyzation, death, mutilation of the body can happen. You are allowed to drive contingent on your continued adherence to those rules of the road. Your license can and will be revoked if you act like an idiot behind the wheel. It is not a right. And how bad the consequences of a car crash can be is not the point. A car crash is, with few exceptions, an accident. Rape is a deliberate attack on another human being. One is a choice, the other is not. They are not comparable. And I do think proper sex education (including what does and does not constitute affirmative consent) is important, yes. Maybe we should be requiring licenses since people are still struggling with this stuff >.> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DunderMifflin Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 2 minutes ago, KiDisaster said: You are allowed to drive contingent on your continued adherence to those rules of the road. Your license can and will be revoked if you act like an idiot behind the wheel. It is not a right. Yes and if you insist on having sex with someone without their consent it's also illegal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 52 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said: No such point being made here. The closest I've come to that is failing to understand the relevance/insistence of calling it a culture. And I'm still failing to see where all this "rape isn't that bad" attitude is coming from(in context with other crime). There are rapes and murders in movies, sometimes they are portrayed seriously, sometimes comedic. Though I struggle to find recent examples of rape comedy in movies I'm sure it happens. I know "entitlement" gets thrown out like a bad word but entitlement is valid when one is actually entitled. People are completely entitled to desire to have sex with anyone they want, even though that desire could possibly lead to rape. People are entitled to drive their cars even though the possibility of engaging in car accident culture exists. People have emotions. That is undeniable. When those emotions cause them to force people to have sex with them... that's rape. The emotions do not and cannot justify sex without consent. What people are doing is claiming that the emotions "nice guys" feel when they are rejected somehow justifies their anger and aggression based upon that anger. It does not. The problem is that our culture rationalizes and trivializes people being forced into sex. People play rationalization games to say that having sex with someone who is passed out isn't "really rape". Or that the way someone was dressed ment they "really" consented to "rough sex". It's crap. Either someone consents, and is capable of giving consent, or they are not. BTW no one is "entilted" to drive a car. Driving a car is clearly a privilege not a right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pebble thats Stubby Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 About 15-20 years ago I had a date with a guy I met from a dating site, who over diner after I declined going back to his place after the meal calmly explained to me that he was a Man and as a Man had a Mans impulses and desires, and just by being in his manly presence meant that I obviously wanted to have sex with him, even if I don’t really know it at the time. Oh and I should not be surprised by this as every man thinks exactly the same way unless they are gay. Oh and yes he kept trying to top up my wine glass and moaned whenever I chose to drink the water instead. I think he genuinely thought it was not rape unless you were physically fighting them off and screaming your head off and if you pause for breath then it’s a bit doubtful. I smiled sweetly, nodded and was very careful of what I said and did. That evening seemed to drag on forever. And he made several attempts to get me to agree to sex most of the time just a minute or two apart. After we had paid for the dinner I did my very best to leave in the opposite direction. But he insisted on coming with me and making sure I was safe. I can tell you I totally did not feel safe. But eventually I made it to the train. I only got to leave after I told him that I really did like him, but I had to get back as I had made plans that I totally could not change as people where depending on me. But I would love to see him again real soon. Once I got home, I curled up and cried. He did not know my home address we only my mobile phone number we had agreed to meet at the restaurant. I got several texts from him, each one got progressively worse, I was called a bitch slut friend zoning whore and if he ever saw me again he would claim his due. I owed him for the meal and the time he spent with me. I just want to point out that I made sure to pay half the cost of dinner. I’ve never told anyone about that night before, at the time I was frightened, scared and very ashamed. I was ashamed of how he looked at me. How he could talk to me like I was an object and very ashamed that I put myself in that position. Part of me felt I should of reported him, but I felt I wouldn’t really be believed and that he hadn’t actually done anything illegal and that somehow the whole thing was my fault. As time went on, I just wanted to put it behind me and pretend it never happened. I never used a dating site again. I know what happed was not my fault. I know that now. I also know I was lucky. If I had drunk a little bit more before he revealed himself or if he had put anything in the drink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceluby Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 57 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said: Yes and if you insist on having sex with someone without their consent it's also illegal. Does the other car feel entitled to crash into you? Will the other car get mad if it doesn't crash into you? Once the crash happens will the other car insist that your car said it was ok to do so? No. Because this is a stupid analogy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theda Baratheon Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 7 minutes ago, Pebble said: About 15-20 years ago I had a date with a guy I met from a dating site, who over diner after I declined going back to his place after the meal calmly explained to me that he was a Man and as a Man had a Mans impulses and desires, and just by being in his manly presence meant that I obviously wanted to have sex with him, even if I don’t really know it at the time. Oh and I should not be surprised by this as every man thinks exactly the same way unless they are gay. Oh and yes he kept trying to top up my wine glass and moaned whenever I chose to drink the water instead. I think he genuinely thought it was not rape unless you were physically fighting them off and screaming your head off and if you pause for breath then it’s a bit doubtful. I smiled sweetly, nodded and was very careful of what I said and did. That evening seemed to drag on forever. And he made several attempts to get me to agree to sex most of the time just a minute or two apart. After we had paid for the dinner I did my very best to leave in the opposite direction. But he insisted on coming with me and making sure I was safe. I can tell you I totally did not feel safe. But eventually I made it to the train. I only got to leave after I told him that I really did like him, but I had to get back as I had made plans that I totally could not change as people where depending on me. But I would love to see him again real soon. Once I got home, I curled up and cried. He did not know my home address we only my mobile phone number we had agreed to meet at the restaurant. I got several texts from him, each one got progressively worse, I was called a bitch slut friend zoning whore and if he ever saw me again he would claim his due. I owed him for the meal and the time he spent with me. I just want to point out that I made sure to pay half the cost of dinner. I’ve never told anyone about that night before, at the time I was frightened, scared and very ashamed. I was ashamed of how he looked at me. How he could talk to me like I was an object and very ashamed that I put myself in that position. Part of me felt I should of reported him, but I felt I wouldn’t really be believed and that he hadn’t actually done anything illegal and that somehow the whole thing was my fault. As time went on, I just wanted to put it behind me and pretend it never happened. I never used a dating site again. I know what happed was not my fault. I know that now. I also know I was lucky. If I had drunk a little bit more before he revealed himself or if he had put anything in the drink. I'm sorry you had to deal with this and thank you for sharing - sadly I think dates like this are probably pretty common and are a very real reality and possibility for women so it mkes me so uncomfortable and plain disgusts me actually that there are so many men that don't realise or accept that rape is an actual very real danger than we as women have to think about WAY MORE than we should (not that in a perfect world we would EVER need to worry about it...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 14 minutes ago, Pebble said: About 15-20 years ago I had a date with a guy I met from a dating site, who over diner after I declined going back to his place after the meal calmly explained to me that he was a Man and as a Man had a Mans impulses and desires, and just by being in his manly presence meant that I obviously wanted to have sex with him, even if I don’t really know it at the time. Oh and I should not be surprised by this as every man thinks exactly the same way unless they are gay. Oh and yes he kept trying to top up my wine glass and moaned whenever I chose to drink the water instead. I think he genuinely thought it was not rape unless you were physically fighting them off and screaming your head off and if you pause for breath then it’s a bit doubtful. I smiled sweetly, nodded and was very careful of what I said and did. That evening seemed to drag on forever. And he made several attempts to get me to agree to sex most of the time just a minute or two apart. After we had paid for the dinner I did my very best to leave in the opposite direction. But he insisted on coming with me and making sure I was safe. I can tell you I totally did not feel safe. But eventually I made it to the train. I only got to leave after I told him that I really did like him, but I had to get back as I had made plans that I totally could not change as people where depending on me. But I would love to see him again real soon. Once I got home, I curled up and cried. He did not know my home address we only my mobile phone number we had agreed to meet at the restaurant. I got several texts from him, each one got progressively worse, I was called a bitch slut friend zoning whore and if he ever saw me again he would claim his due. I owed him for the meal and the time he spent with me. I just want to point out that I made sure to pay half the cost of dinner. I’ve never told anyone about that night before, at the time I was frightened, scared and very ashamed. I was ashamed of how he looked at me. How he could talk to me like I was an object and very ashamed that I put myself in that position. Part of me felt I should of reported him, but I felt I wouldn’t really be believed and that he hadn’t actually done anything illegal and that somehow the whole thing was my fault. As time went on, I just wanted to put it behind me and pretend it never happened. I never used a dating site again. I know what happed was not my fault. I know that now. I also know I was lucky. If I had drunk a little bit more before he revealed himself or if he had put anything in the drink. Pebble, Wow... just wow. I'm so sorry you went through that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 1 hour ago, DunderMifflin said: No such point being made here. The closest I've come to that is failing to understand the relevance/insistence of calling it a culture. It is a culture because the blase attitude regarding it is somewhat endemic. High profile (wealthy/important) men are shielded from prosecution to some degree. I know you're going to say that this is true for these men in regards to many forms of crime, but I think it's fair to say that in the case of rape, there's an added layer of protection. "She is just looking for a payday. She is just looking to take advantage of his position." Etc, Etc. Traditionally, law enforcement has been a bit of an old boys network in this country. Things have changed for the better certainly, but the foundation and formation is patriarchal. I think it's only natural to some degree for a male perspective regarding rape to be somewhat skewed. When that perception is held by the body that is enforcing the law, that perception holds a lot of power. It becomes part of the culture due to the systemic nature of that perception. And that's just one example as to how it is cultural. There are many more. I took a really good creative writing course way back in my Community College days. The first half of the course was poetry. The teacher used a poem about reporting a rape to the police from the perspective of the woman who was reporting it. I wish I could find the damn thing as it was really poignant and I think it illustrated the problem quite viscerally. I'll keep digging and post it up here if I can find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraPrime Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 So, in other words, DM is saying he's not refuting the existence of rape culture except that he is refuting the existence of rape culture. Got it. I think I can move on now. Thank you. I bet DM has plenty of links and examples of men feeling horrible after a date to equalize the type of trauma that Pebble posted about. We all await with bated breath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pebble thats Stubby Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 3 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said: I'm sorry you had to deal with this and thank you for sharing - sadly I think dates like this are probably pretty common and are a very real reality and possibility for women so it mkes me so uncomfortable and plain disgusts me actually that there are so many men that don't realise or accept that rape is an actual very real danger than we as women have to think about WAY MORE than we should (not that in a perfect world we would EVER need to worry about it...) I went on several dates with other people from that date site without being the least be concerned over what my date might do. So this was the rare one of the bunch. but it was the way be basically told me that he would rape me if he got the chance, and that its not rape and such behavior is normal and what everyone does. that was and is the really frighting part. This whole thread has brought back a lot of the feelings I had for a long time afterwards. there are so many people here who don't get rape culture. although I am given a lot of comfort by all those men speaking out about it. I think we are making progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo498 Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 I don't deny that there might be some subcultures (criminals, pimps, drug milieu etc.) that are rape cultures. But to describe mainstream Western European (and presumably) US culture as "rape culture" makes this a term almost without meaning because if parts of South Africa (where apparently 1 in 4 men admits having been involved in sexual assault/rape) are as well "rape cultures" as Western Europe and the US which are very probably the least "rapey" cultures and the ones with the highest sensitivity for sexual assault in the history of humanity ever, why bother with a distinction and rather call both the same. I mean, some 1970s feminists called any piv sexual intercourse rape, anarchists have called all property theft since the 19th century, almost everyone has called their political opponents "fascist" at some stage. RAINN (below) estimates that in the US college population 3-7% of the males are responsible for >90% of sexual assault. So by all means, paint all men, especially shy ones who complain about not getting dates with the broadest possible brush and call the entire culture "rape culture". Those "entitled guys" who cannot get laid are clearly the main problem here because they are entitled objectificators, if only in theory when fantasizing or watching porn. If the main organization for rape prevention disagrees and finds it unhelpful one should maybe reconsider the position... https://www.rainn.org/images/03-2014/WH-Task-Force-RAINN-Recommendations.pdf If we really largely ignore/trivialize rape, why can the taint of an accusation of sexual misconduct ruin a man's career, even if he is acquitted in court? (Most prominent examples in the last years in Europe were the weatherman Kachelmann and the TV host Andreas Türck.) Because for some reason the presumption of innocence/in dubio pro reo is called into question in such cases, at least by some part of the public. So our "rape culture" actually abhors rape so much that we want to waive a main principle of due process! And if the courts stick to it as they have to in most jurisdictions, they are called lenient, only it has not been shown that the subject was guilty at all. Because this is the other difference that people are very rarely framed with false accusations of murder or theft but very frequently with false accusations of sexual assault. And very often the evidence is inconclusive and there is not much one can do about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 Jo, The fact that Pebble's date didn't see anything wrong with his method of coercion suggests otherwise. I can't imagine Pebble is the only woman who has gone through that terrible experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 ^^^^ I think it's fair to say that the term has probably been overused and abused by 3rd wave feminists and SJW culture and the like. The whole idea that you can't use the word "violated" in a university classroom for instance is patently ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo498 Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 4 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: So? The objectification of women as trophies to be won has stopped? The gag of pretending to be someone else to have sex has never been offered again? It has been condemned in popular culture? The Geek taking advantage of the drunk girl to "win her love" hasn't been presented as "seizing the day" in films like "Dead Poets Society"? Pretending to be someone else for sex is not restricted to men (where it admittedly goes back to Zeus/Jupiter who did this als the time). And while I don't want to defend such problematic scenes in movies, playing all kinds of sexual humiliation for laughs is also older than dirt. Traditionally, it was mostly being caught in flagrante delicto with the wrong partner, being cuckolded, not being able to perform, getting locked out somewhere naked etc. More recently it involves bad jokes about men being raped in prison. All this is funny mainly because it is something bad happening to someone, like other kinds of black humour. It does not automatically imply that the thing depicted is harmless (as should be obvious in the grosser forms of black humour involving mutilation or death). One can call it an element of "rape culture" but again, I don't think that this brings out any useful distinction because sexual and black humour (and a mix of both) exists in almost all human cultures. There is still a long way to go for the modern day re-educators and I do not think that their particular mix of puritanism and libertinism is going to be successful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 For the record I don't believe that anyone is claiming providing normal due process to accused criminals is "Rape Culture". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo498 Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 9 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Jo, The fact that Pebble's date didn't see anything wrong with his method of coercion suggests otherwise. I can't imagine Pebble is the only woman who has gone through that terrible experience. o.k., with anecdotal evidence in one case one can suggest anything and everything. Maybe that guy was one of the ca. 5% prone to commit sexual assault. But I prefer to stick to the little hard data provided by e.g. RAINN (which is after all an organization professionally concerned with reducing rape not the male chauvinist's defense network). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DunderMifflin Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 33 minutes ago, aceluby said: Does the other car feel entitled to crash into you? Will the other car get mad if it doesn't crash into you? Once the crash happens will the other car insist that your car said it was ok to do so? No. Because this is a stupid analogy. The analogy is fine, it's just your questions that are stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 2 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said: The analogy is fine, it's just your questions that are stupid. No, as multiple posters have pointed out, the analogy is shit. Can a brother get a courtesy flush? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.