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"Friend Zone" as Rape Culture and the Alpha\Beta Dichotomy


Myshkin

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44 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

No one has done that.

You may want to read previous pages of the thread before jumping on board and fighting strawmen.

He has to be tried in the first place, and for rape too, which doesn't happen often at all.

Then, your contention that an accusation of rape "ruins a man's career" is just as groundless as saying that it doesn't. In some cases an accusation may do so, in others, maybe not. The only numbers I have show that rape is a largely unreported unprosecuted crime, and thus that accusations of rape are very rare compared to how common the crime is.

I read the whole bloody thread and it is claimed all over the place that we "live in a rape culture" and that denying this and denying that almost everything concerning dating is contributing to it and that everyone who denies these two things is basically supporting that culture. But I am going to quit the thread fairly soon because if there is something more foolish than caring about "someone's wrong on the internet" it is caring about "someone's being not even wrong on the internet".

If it is o.k. to throw around anecdotal evidence in the case of Brock Turner (who was caught, accused, convicted, never any doubt about it, as far as I understand, so it is a dubious data point in either direction) it should also be o.k. to throw around anecdotal evidence of prominent males being basically ruined because of false accusations. But my point was actually a different one: The effect of such accusations demonstrates that far from being callous we think that rape is so bad that we even want to waive a principle like in dubio pro reo and that even for acquitted persons the taint of having been suspected and tried for rape is bad enough to ruin their careers (if they were public personalities). So while there might be some sections of society with elements of a "rape culture" there are other very influential ones that lead to the suppression of such a principle because of the horrifying nature of the crime.

And if people do not understand that evidence is likely to be inconclusive in many such cases intimate crimes, I really don't know what to say anymore. Obviously in dubio pro reo will often "protect" a perpetrator because of scanty evidence. There is not much one can do about that. But this is not callous but sticking to an extremely important juridical principle.

Therefore numbers are all dubious, because "unreported" is per definition only a rough estimate. For all I know according to official stats there has not been an increase in sexual assaults in the last decades although almost everywhere laws have become more strict. And the point of RAINN as far as I understand it is that because only a few men are the perpetrators, it does not help very much to "educate" all men ever more intensely. Because almost everybody knows that rape is wrong. They do it anyway and education is unlikely to prevent these guys from doing it.

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Look its very simple.

The guy in my date did not believe what he was telling me was rape.

He did not think there was anything wrong with having sex with someone who repeatedly says NO.  because they really want it even if they think they don't.

He does not think there was anything wrong with his behavior.  I'm sure if he thought there was something wrong with it, he wouldn't have told me so openly what he intended to have sex with me even if I objected cos thats not rape.

He thinks every man that is not gay acts the same way. that this is normal.  And women automatically agree to have sex just by being in a mans presence.    and thus because its normal behavior it can't be rape or wrong in any way.

 

Yes this was an extreme case.   but something made him think this is normal, and what everyone does, so there is nothing wrong with it.  He learnt this from somewhere.   and that is Rape culture.

 

Not knowing what consent is   is rape culture.

Ignoring consent is Rape.     He did not rape me.  I was lucky, but I am certain he would have if he had the chance, and I'm certain I was not the only person he did this on.

Getting someone drunk so they can't say no then having sex is     rape.

saying the woman was kinda asking for it because she was drunk is rape culture.

 

It was rape culture that allowed him to think that way.    and not just to think that way but tell me over dinner because he can't see any reason why I could possibly have a problem with that.    If he had got the message from society that what he was describing as ordinary behavior of every man was in fact Rape and something that most men are not like that, then maybe he would have re-evaluated.  Yes he may still be the type of guy to rape people, but he would at least on some level understand its wrong.

 

Most people who break into homes and steal your stuff know its wrong and a crime but still do it anyway.   they don't think its their right just cos your house happened to be in front of them.

 

Rape culture is about the things that happen to make rape not rape in the minds of the would be rapists, and to provide excuses for rape happening.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Jo498 said:

Therefore numbers are all dubious, because "unreported" is per definition only a rough estimate. For all I know according to official stats there has not been an increase in sexual assaults in the last decades although almost everywhere laws have become more strict. And the point of RAINN as far as I understand it is that because only a few men are the perpetrators, it does not help very much to "educate" all men ever more intensely. Because almost everybody knows that rape is wrong. They do it anyway and education is unlikely to prevent these guys from doing it.

This is not true. There are studies done showing that people do NOT agree on the definition of rape to begin with. That's why you have people defending Brock Turner, despite his conviction. If you look at outcomes of surveys, people will admit to doing things that are rapes as long as you do not call it rape. We do all know that rape is bad and horrible. The trick people use is to start arguing that X, Y, or Z are not rape, or "rape," or legitimate rape, etc. THAT is part of rape culture - the constant push to define things away from being rape.

 

Second, judicial outcomes that are successful do not erase all the other cultural components. Some white drug dealers are imprisoned, but it doesn't mean our judicial system doesn't have a racial bias issue against black citizens. Nor does it mean that the imprisonment of white criminals prove we have no racism left in our society.

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2 minutes ago, Pebble said:

Most people who break into homes and steal your stuff know its wrong and a crime but still do it anyway.   they don't think its their right just cos your house happened to be in front of them.

Rape culture is about the things that happen to make rape not rape in the minds of the would be rapists, and to provide excuses for rape happening.

Well said. I may borrow this the next time I need to have this conversation with someone if you don't mind. 

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4 minutes ago, Jo498 said:

If it is o.k. to throw around anecdotal evidence in the case of Brock Turner (who was caught, accused, convicted, never any doubt about it, as far as I understand, so it is a dubious data point in either direction) it should also be o.k. to throw around anecdotal evidence of prominent males being basically ruined because of false accusations. But my point was actually a different one: The effect of such accusations demonstrates that far from being callous we think that rape is so bad that we even want to waive a principle like in dubio pro reo and that even for acquitted persons the taint of having been suspected and tried for rape is bad enough to ruin their careers (if they were public personalities). So while there might be some sections of society with elements of a "rape culture" there are other very influential ones that lead to the suppression of such a principle because of the horrifying nature of the crime.

I think these are really fair points. This board can devolve into a bit of an echo chamber at times, and a measured counter-argument is always welcome as far as I'm concerned.

 

6 minutes ago, KiDisaster said:

I'd like to go back to 10 minutes ago when I didn't know who Mike Cernovich is please. :stillsick:

You've just been introduced to this cancer in Twitter form? He's another one of these Alt-Right personalities that seems to have gained some measure of social media prominence due to the rise of Trump. 60 Minutes did a pretty solid takedown of him last week...

  http://www.cbsnews.com/news/whats-fake-news-60-minutes-producers-investigate/

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Pebble,

Most people who break into homes and steal your stuff know its wrong and a crime but still do it anyway.   they don't think its their right just cos your house happened to be in front of them.

Rape culture is about the things that happen to make rape not rape in the minds of the would be rapists, and to provide excuses for rape happening.



That is very well considered.  It is a beautiful way of showing why this is different from normal property crimes and why minimizing it is insidious.

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4 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

You've just been introduced to this cancer in Twitter form? He's another one of these Alt-Right personalities that seems to have gained some measure of social media prominence due to the rise of Trump. 60 Minutes did a pretty solid takedown of him last week...

  http://www.cbsnews.com/news/whats-fake-news-60-minutes-producers-investigate/

One of the benefits of not being on social media I guess. I have a Facebook I rarely look at and that's it. And I only even have that because the university I went to made it mandatory for freshman orientation. 

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15 minutes ago, Jo498 said:

I read the whole bloody thread and it is claimed all over the place that we "live in a rape culture"

I certainly haven't said that, and I don't think anyone did. The existence of a rape culture certainly doesn't mean this is our culture. Imho rape culture is a kind of sub-culture within our societies that surfaces from time to time in some people's arguments. Saying that "we live in a rape culture" is really something else and I at least would never go that far.

15 minutes ago, Jo498 said:

The effect of such accusations demonstrates that far from being callous we think that rape is so bad that we even want to waive a principle like in dubio pro reo and that even for acquitted persons the taint of having been suspected and tried for rape is bad enough to ruin their careers (if they were public personalities). So while there might be some sections of society with elements of a "rape culture" there are other very influential ones that lead to the suppression of such a principle because of the horrifying nature of the crime.

I don't know if I can agree with that, but I suppose it's a possibility. What's your point though?

15 minutes ago, Jo498 said:

And if people do not understand that evidence is likely to be inconclusive in many such cases intimate crimes, I really don't know what to say anymore. Obviously in dubio pro reo will often "protect" a perpetrator because of scanty evidence. There is not much one can do about that. But this is not callous but sticking to an extremely important juridical principle.

Proving that a crime occurred and denying that a crime occurred are two very different things. Please, please, make an effort to understand what we're talking about.

15 minutes ago, Jo498 said:

Because almost everybody knows that rape is wrong.

No, I don't think so. I think some people enjoy the power that men have over woemn through rape or the threat of rape.
Then, others simply don't understand when it becomes rape.

 

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53 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

When we make it a point to get people blackout drunk and this is an acceptable cultural value, when we believe (like these rapists do) that as long as they're not fighting back it isn't rape

Sorry, but this is not an "acceptable cultural value" where I live. I can certainly agree that subcultures who affirm that getting someone blackout drunk and subsequently raping them is acceptable are "rape cultures". Still, I do not think that it is "victim blaming" if one thinks that rather than fatuously trying to educate rapists, it might a smarter strategy to educate potential victims that they do not get blackout drunk.

For me, the problem is again the generalization that this is all a continuous part of a "culture". There are boundaries. Of course, it might be best not to get drunk at all. But getting tipsy and somewhat uninhibited at parties with the risk of doing something one might regret later is also a part of life, especially if one is young. I don't see any simple way to prevent that (and I am not sure it should be prevented) and therefore it is very hard to prevent the extreme cases. I can agree that we should strive to prevent them.

(To become even more unpopular, if this is possible, I think that a deeper cause here are the contradictions rampant within our more recent sexual mores. On the one side we are libertines and have basically abolished all evaluation of "right/wrong" in this area with one exception: consent. Anything (maybe short of mutilation and murder, cf. the Rothenburg cannibal case) mutually consented to is o.k. (and this was very different until fairly recently), so this took away many restrictions that were at least in principle in place earlier. But consent is often very hard to prove or disprove in practice because it is given in a private, often nonverbal communication. In the old sense seduction was bad because someone was made to consent to something wrong. Now we sometimes find seducing or being seduced is exactly what we want if it is done the "right way" because as long as eventually consent is reached, there is nothing wrong. But obviously there is no clear line between seduction and mild coercion and than we are at the slippery slope to assault or even rape.)

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Just now, Jo498 said:

Sorry, but this is not an "acceptable cultural value" where I live. I can certainly agree that subcultures who affirm that getting someone blackout drunk and subsequently raping them is acceptable are "rape cultures". Still, I do not think that it is "victim blaming" if one thinks that rather than fatuously trying to educate rapists, it might a smarter strategy to educate potential victims that they do not get blackout drunk.

You don't live in the US, right? Because it absolutely is part of the culture in the US, and you can see that in the songs, the movies, the talk, and the strategies. 

And yes, it absolutely is victim blaming, especially if you're saying that the responsibility of not getting raped lies mostly with them. 

Quote

For me, the problem is again the generalization that this is all a continuous part of a "culture". There are boundaries. Of course, it might be best not to get drunk at all. But getting tipsy and somewhat uninhibited at parties with the risk of doing something one might regret later is also a part of life, especially if one is young. I don't see any simple way to prevent that (and I am not sure it should be prevented) and therefore it is very hard to prevent the extreme cases. I can agree that we should strive to prevent them.

Ah, so here's the problem. When you hear 'rape culture' you think 'this is a culture that across the board promotes and encourages raping, and does so in every facet of life'. When what we are actually saying and that you are ignoring is that it means 'how rape is viewed in the general culture in a non-negative way'. 

Quote

(To become even more unpopular, if this is possible, I think that a deeper cause here are the contradictions rampant within our more recent sexual mores. On the one side we are libertines and have basically abolished all evaluation of "right/wrong" in this area with one exception: consent. Anything (maybe short of mutilation and murder, cf. the Rothenburg cannibal case) mutually consented to is o.k. (and this was very different until fairly recently), so this took away many restrictions that were at least in principle in place earlier. But consent is often very hard to prove or disprove in practice because it is given in a private, often nonverbal communication. In the old sense seduction was bad because someone was made to consent to something wrong. Now we sometimes find seducing or being seduced is exactly what we want if it is done the "right way" because as long as eventually consent is reached, there is nothing wrong. But obviously there is no clear line between seduction and mild coercion and than we are at the slippery slope to assault or even rape.)

Yeah, this is bullshit. The idea that there is a slippery slope is precisely the rape culture showing up. Brock Turner wasn't about some slippery idea - it was about a person deciding that they wanted to fuck someone else and that the other person didn't get to choose. And because this was viewed as not so big of a deal, he got 6 months of probation for it. And probably wouldn't have gotten anything had there not been any witnesses catching him in the act. 

There isn't an increase in rapes of women because women are now confused about what rape is, or are deciding that they didn't really consent, or that they got too drunk. Point of fact there's every indication that rape in developed countries has as a whole gone down compared to what it was like in the past. It's hard to prove because police don't even tend to try. They don't bother even testing rape kits. They tell victims that it might just be their imagination, or that it would be too hard to prove and they should just try and get over it, or that they made it up. 

Here's a great, well-researched story about how one police organization completely and utterly fucked up at every single level, and how the woman's foster mom was more willing to think that she was lying about it. This is a good example of where women through the whole thing are fucking up - they have an idea of what rape victims act like, they prosecute the victim instead of looking at evidence, they constantly start on the idea of it being not true. There are very few crimes that remotely look like this in our attitude towards them. There are very few crimes that are as underreported as rape is; probably domestic violence is closest. 

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2 hours ago, Pebble said:

About 15-20 years ago I had a date with a guy I met from a dating site, who over diner after I declined going back to his place after the meal calmly explained to me that he was a Man and as a Man had a Mans impulses and desires, and just by being in his manly presence meant that I obviously wanted to have sex with him, even if I don’t really know it at the time.  Oh and I should not be surprised by this as every man thinks exactly the same way unless they are gay.  Oh and yes he kept trying to top up my wine glass and moaned whenever I chose to drink the water instead.   I think he genuinely thought it was not rape unless you were physically fighting them off and screaming your head off and if you pause for breath then it’s a bit doubtful.

I smiled sweetly, nodded and was very careful of what I said and did.   That evening seemed to drag on forever. And he made several attempts to get me to agree to sex most of the time just a minute or two apart.   After we had paid for the dinner I did my very best to leave in the opposite direction. But he insisted on coming with me and making sure I was safe.   I can tell you I totally did not feel safe. But eventually I made it to the train.   I only got to leave after I told him that I really did like him, but I had to get back as I had made plans that I totally could not change as people where depending on me.  But I would love to see him again real soon.

Once I got home, I curled up and cried.

He did not know my home address we only my mobile phone number we had agreed to meet at the restaurant.   I got several texts from him, each one got progressively worse,  I was called a bitch slut friend zoning whore and if he ever saw me again he would claim his due.  I owed him for the meal and the time he spent with me.   I just want to point out that I made sure to pay half the cost of dinner.

I’ve never told anyone about that night before, at the time I was frightened, scared and very ashamed.  I was ashamed of how he looked at me.  How he could talk to me like I was an object and very ashamed that I put myself in that position.  Part of me felt I should of reported him, but I felt I wouldn’t really be believed and that he hadn’t actually done anything illegal and that somehow the whole thing was my fault.   As time went on, I just wanted to put it behind me and pretend it never happened.  I never used a dating site again.

I know what happed was not my fault.  I know that now.  I also know I was lucky.   If I had drunk a little bit more before he revealed himself or if he had put anything in the drink.

Wow. Sorry you had to experience this Pebs :(:grouphug: that's awful. 

And your other response was very well reasoned. I agree with what you said there

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But getting tipsy and somewhat uninhibited at parties with the risk of doing something one might regret later is also a part of life, especially if one is young.

Taking a selfie while mimicking sucking a cock is questionable decisions made while drunk.

Being sexually assaulted is not.

When you conflate the two, it is, wait for it.... part of what adds to the rape culture.

 

To become even more unpopular, if this is possible,

 

I don't think being popular is, or should be, your primary goal here. But who am I to judge.

 

On the one side we are libertines ...

I presume you meant "liberals." Also, there doesn't seem to be "one the other side" argument from you about how conservatives are contributing to the problems. Yet, I am not surprised.

 

Now we sometimes find seducing or being seduced is exactly what we want if it is done the "right way" because as long as eventually consent is reached, there is nothing wrong. But obviously there is no clear line between seduction and mild coercion and than we are at the slippery slope to assault or even rape.)

Yeah.... No.

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1 minute ago, TerraPrime said:

I presume you meant "liberals." Also, there doesn't seem to be "one the other side" argument from you about how conservatives are contributing to the problems. Yet, I am not surprised.

Pretty sure the poster meant libertine...

lib·er·tine
ˈlibərˌtēn/
noun
 
  1. 1.
    a person, especially a man, who behaves without moral principles or a sense of responsibility, especially in sexual matters.
    synonyms: philanderer, playboy, rake, roué, Don Juan, Lothario, Casanova, Romeo; More
     
     
     
     
  2. 2.
    a person who rejects accepted opinions in matters of religion; a freethinker.
adjective
 
  1. 1.
    characterized by a disregard of morality, especially in sexual matters.
    "his more libertine impulses"
  2. 2.
    freethinking in matters of religion.

 

 In context, I'm guessing the first adjective definition fits the post. 

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37 minutes ago, Jo498 said:

Now we sometimes find seducing or being seduced is exactly what we want if it is done the "right way" because as long as eventually consent is reached, there is nothing wrong. But obviously there is no clear line between seduction and mild coercion and than we are at the slippery slope to assault or even rape.)

If you proceed past the word "no" what you are doing thereafter is not "seduction" or "mild coercion" Consent is not a slope, it's a zero sum game- either you have consent or you do not. If you need to pressure someone in any way- that is not consent.

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19 hours ago, Rippounet said:

Slut-shaming is pretty specific to rape. As is the tendency to question the reality of the crime. You don't question the reality of assault, burglary or murder by saying the victim was actually consenting do you?

It's pretty much standard procedure when accused of a crime to discredit the accuser, the witnesses, and the evidence.

 

18 hours ago, TerraPrime said:

Not all crimes are as personally invasive as rape. When people try to get out of paying the price of burglarizing someone's house, it's a lot less personal.

Also, not all crimes enjoy the same routine series of excuses and doubts. Yes, we might hear those excuses applied to other contexts, but I am hard pressed to think of a set of crime that routinely, consistently, and historically receive that same litany of excuses that rape does.

 

I'm not really sure what I am supposed to be taking from this distinction.

As i mentioned above, attempting to discredit evidence and witnesses is pretty much criminal defense 101.

I think if you want to argue that those defense are effective because of rape culture, then that works I guess.

But even assuming a rigorous defense to being accused of rape contributes to rape culture, what is there to be done about it?  When yuo're accused of a crime, you get to defend yourself.

I get that that sucks for rape victims, like, a lot.  But what is the alternative?

 

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1 minute ago, Swordfish said:

It's pretty much standard procedure when accused of a crime to discredit the accuser, the witnesses, and the evidence.

For the defense - not prosecution and law enforcement.

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Just now, Week said:

For the defense - not prosecution and law enforcement.

Or for the friends of the victim, or the family members. In the story I linked above the foster mom was the one who called the police out of the blue because she didn't trust her own foster daughter's story

Because her foster daughter wasn't acting like she thought a person who was raped should act. 

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