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"Friend Zone" as Rape Culture and the Alpha\Beta Dichotomy


Myshkin

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The bigger part of rape culture in the Turner case isn't that the judge took him at his word. It's that he somehow could think, and the judge could think it reasonable to think, that an unconscious person consented to sex with him. Every time you invoke "but he thought he had consent" you're just proving the point. No one should possibly think anyone is consenting to virtually anything in that state, but here we are.

It's not "no is no" and I actually think that phrase is part of the problem. Someone unconscious doesn't say no. Someone terrified or battered into compliance doesnt say no. Someone shocked and in disbelief that this is happening doesn't say no. Someone coerced or shamed into silence doesn't say no.

Lack of yes means no. Enthusiastic affirmative consent. If the person isn't making it clear that they want it, then don't. If this idea scares you and you don't want to be a rapist then good. Slow down, make sure you're both on the same page, ask them explicitly. Think it will make it harder to get laid? Are you really saying you'd rather risk raping someone than miss out on sex? Because that says a whole lot if so. If not, then do it right.

If your partner isn't an active participant, stop and think about why and make sure it's something you're doing together.

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1 hour ago, karaddin said:

 

Lack of yes means no. Enthusiastic affirmative consent. If the person isn't making it clear that they want it, then don't. If this idea scares you and you don't want to be a rapist then good. Slow down, make sure you're both on the same page, ask them explicitly. Think it will make it harder to get laid? Are you really saying you'd rather risk raping someone than miss out on sex? Because that says a whole lot if so. If not, then do it right.

 

 

That is EXACTLY what a lot of guys are saying and they can honestly go fuck themselves. I often see the argument that it's just not sexy to ask; it's just not sexy to make sure...FUCK. THAT. The fact that possibly getting less sex/being a little less sexy is more important than risking raping someone is kind of sickening 

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8 hours ago, karaddin said:

It's not "no is no" and I actually think that phrase is part of the problem. Someone unconscious doesn't say no. Someone terrified or battered into compliance doesnt say no. Someone shocked and in disbelief that this is happening doesn't say no. Someone coerced or shamed into silence doesn't say no.

 

Very well put. I have heard stories from folks who "went along with it" because they were terrified and just wanted to get through to the other side. That atmosphere of fear affects the ability of many to even say, "no" in the first place. 

And that, ironically, puts me in mind of the "just say no to drugs" campaign. Not sure what more to say about that. 

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Great post, @karaddin. And I saw someone else mentioning 13 Reasons Why on Netflix, that illustrates this point well (a girl so terrified she can't speak). It isn't always simple or cut and dried, is the issue. And yes, women (for instance a woman stuck in a shitty or even abusive marriage) may even 'give in' to get to the other side; to survive, to not get hit again... loads of stuff. 

So I fully agree: there should be clear consent given, rather than assumptions made. 

 

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This seems perfectly on-topic:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/rape-victim-thordis-elva-attacker-tom-stranger-tell-story-together-sexual-violence-understand-shame-a7571076.html

A relevant quote:

Quote

 

“My actions that night in 1996 were a self-centered taking,” Mr Stranger said. “I felt deserving of Thordis's body."

"I've had primarily positive social influences and examples of equitable behaviour around me," he added. "But on that occasion, I chose to draw upon the negative ones. The ones that see women as having less intrinsic worth, and of men having some unspoken and symbolic claim to their bodies. These influences I speak of are external to me, though.

 

 

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20 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

That is EXACTLY what a lot of guys are saying and they can honestly go fuck themselves. I often see the argument that it's just not sexy to ask; it's just not sexy to make sure...FUCK. THAT. The fact that possibly getting less sex/being a little less sexy is more important than risking raping someone is kind of sickening 

This.

I'd also argue that it can be sexy to ask if you're not completely devoid of sense or tact. It's just about how you do it. 

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Let me say, I think the same guy that doesn't take no for an answer, is the same guy that doesn't look for consent or has sex with a drunk passed out girl. So, we can separate all of these things, but it's all the same. When you feel entitled, the situation doesn't matter because you feel entitled. Any sane, rational human being doesn't try having sex with someone who is passed out or asleep. You let them sleep. Yet, this happens all the time. I'd venture to say that, that's how most rapes occur and go unreported. 

And, I'll be honest. Much of this has never crossed my mind until I've had a little girl. Wanting to keep her safe and educated on these things. 

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1 hour ago, Xray the Enforcer said:

Are you also educating your sons about affirmative consent?

I know that wasn't directed at me, but, my family and I were watching Dead Poet's Society a couple of month's back and we got to the scene where Knox is drunk and kisses the girl he has a crush on while she is passed out.  I looked at my son after that scene, he's 10, and said "Never... ever... do that.  If a woman is passed out you don't try to kiss her... ever."

My Mother-in-Law was watching with us and she looked at me and my son then she said to my son "You should listen to your Daddy".  

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On 4/8/2017 at 5:57 AM, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

- do you have any examples of these clear cut cases that a conviction didn't happen because of 'rape culture' and not because of lack of evidence?

- the turner judge said he took brock turner at his word, as turner believed in his drunken state he had gotten consent for his actions. The judge simply believed that turner was telling the truth about that.  I don't see that as having anything to do with rape culture.

The way I look at it, the judge wasn't the relevant finder of fact for that determination.  The jury found him guilty.  You then have to ask yourself why the judge found it necessary to find additional/different facts.

4 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I know that wasn't directed at me, but, my family and I were watching Dead Poet's Society a couple of month's back and we got to the scene where Knox is drunk and kisses the girl he has a crush on while she is passed out.  I looked at my son after that scene, he's 10, and said "Never... ever... do that.  If a woman is passed out you don't try to kiss her... ever."

My Mother-in-Law was watching with us and she looked at me and my son then she said to my son "You should listen to your Daddy".  

:)  BTW, newish parents hear a lot of crap about how "boys are easier than girls" to raise, and then it devolves into a discussion of high school, and, inevitably dating.  It  makes me so, so, so, angry.  Raising CHILDREN of any sort is hard.  But it implies to me that somehow some parents think that they have to parent boys less on these issues.  INCORRECT.

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On 4/8/2017 at 4:57 AM, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

- do you have any examples of these clear cut cases that a conviction didn't happen because of 'rape culture' and not because of lack of evidence?

Again, lack of conviction, or conviction, isn't the end all and be all of rape in our society. There are a whole lot that goes on before, and after the trials, regardless of the outcome. 

 

Also, you're asking for something that'd be difficult to demonstrate. How would you go about determining that X or Y are the factors in casuing a jury to not find a defendant guilty? 

 

That said, there absolutely have been cases where a victim's past sexual history was used as argument against her. Slut-shaming and implying that someone who sleeps with other people probably had given consent in _this_ case, too, is common. 

 

- the turner judge said he took brock turner at his word, as turner believed in his drunken state he had gotten consent for his actions. The judge simply believed that turner was telling the truth about that.  I don't see that as having anything to do with rape culture.

That is missing the point entirely. The point is that given all that, 3 months of probation for being caught red-handed sexually assaulting a woman who was passed out is egregiously lenient. How is this not a free ticket to all rapes? Just drink enough alcohol to be legally drunk and then you can do whatever you want because all of a sudden, being drunk and thinking you had consent would pretty much get you out of jail free. So 4 shots of tequila and 2 beer chasers and you're good to go, bud! 

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4 hours ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

:)  BTW, newish parents hear a lot of crap about how "boys are easier than girls" to raise, and then it devolves into a discussion of high school, and, inevitably dating.  It  makes me so, so, so, angry.  Raising CHILDREN of any sort is hard.  But it implies to me that somehow some parents think that they have to parent boys less on these issues.  INCORRECT.

You're right of course. I don't think my boys will be any easier than my daughter. It's just, that she will be the first to encounter these issues, and she's a Daddy's girl and I want to protect her like any Dad should. In the end, the whole subject on rape is one that has to be taught more to boys, imo. They have to know about consent and the right ways to treat women. I think a lot of it is basic ways to treat another human being, in the end. 

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1 hour ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

 I think a lot of it is basic ways to treat another human being, in the end. 

That's a part of it, yes. 

But undeniably, the issue of sexual violence disproportionately affects women. Plenty of men are victims of sexual assaults, too, whether it's as a child or as an adult, and the situation is grossly under-reported. Nevertheless, the sexualization of women's body is in a league entirely of its own. Unless one of your boys turns out to be gay, he likely won't run into too much (comparatively) body image issues. Women, on the other hand, are almost all impacted by body image and body control issues. Some issues just _are_ stacked against women, and it's useful for parents and adults to address these issues as such, imo. 

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I dunno, the increase in body issues for men is a subject I wouldn't want to dismiss. It manifests in a completely different way, but its capable of some pretty nasty harm especially in kids still. The next DSM is likely to include a new disorder around male compulsive muscle building equivalent to eating disorders in women. Historically the issues haven't been the same, and a lot of the other problems that accompany the body image issues are absent, but its still pretty disappointing to see us approaching equality by dragging men down rather than pulling women up from it. And thats a completely separate issue that would warrant its own thread.

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16 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

 Any sane, rational human being doesn't try having sex with someone who is passed out or asleep.

I think this is a dangerous assumption. I think the reality is that most rapists truly believe what they did was not rape. They are sane, rational people that their general acquaintance would call "nice." The idea that rapists are people different than normal people is a way that it doesn't get recognized for what it is and victims feel they won't have support if they seek support of any kind. It is very easy for a sane person who is not malicious to engage in this behavior because society doesn't draw a line where all rape is bad or even that all rape is rape. The take home a super drunk girl at last call trope, the get a girl drunk before making a move trope, the trick her into it by pretending to be someone else, the she's mad and expressed it so I will kiss her and that solves it trope, the stalk her until she loves me trope, the I want to try anal so I'll tell her it's an accident gag, most movies that depict sexual or romantic situations directed at young men (even more than the rest of movies which still have tons of this) have horribly problematic content in this way. The way people talk about victims in the media and personally also contributes to the idea that you can be "asking for it" in some way other than giving consent.  Don't teach your kids that rape is something that monsters do, it's a monstrous thing, but people just like the rest of us are committing it.

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16 hours ago, Kelli Fury said:

I think this is a dangerous assumption. I think the reality is that most rapists truly believe what they did was not rape. They are sane, rational people that their general acquaintance would call "nice." The idea that rapists are people different than normal people is a way that it doesn't get recognized for what it is and victims feel they won't have support if they seek support of any kind. It is very easy for a sane person who is not malicious to engage in this behavior because society doesn't draw a line where all rape is bad or even that all rape is rape. The take home a super drunk girl at last call trope, the get a girl drunk before making a move trope, the trick her into it by pretending to be someone else, the she's mad and expressed it so I will kiss her and that solves it trope, the stalk her until she loves me trope, the I want to try anal so I'll tell her it's an accident gag, most movies that depict sexual or romantic situations directed at young men (even more than the rest of movies which still have tons of this) have horribly problematic content in this way. The way people talk about victims in the media and personally also contributes to the idea that you can be "asking for it" in some way other than giving consent.  Don't teach your kids that rape is something that monsters do, it's a monstrous thing, but people just like the rest of us are committing it.

This is an excellent summation. And I think it pretty much nails what we've been debating here. Rape culture normalizes rape into something that isn't rape. Rape is bad, we all "know" that, so it has to be refined in order to be accepted. Otherwise decent people who commit rape are going to use these standards to protect themselves. It's a massive, society-sized case of cognitive dissonance. 

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Just now, Liver and Onions said:

This is an excellent summation. And I think it pretty much nails what we've been debating here. Rape culture normalizes rape into something that isn't rape. Rape is bad, we all "know" that, so it has to be refined in order to be accepted. Otherwise decent people who commit rape are going to use these standards to protect themselves. It's a massive, society-sized case of cognitive dissonance. 

That, and naturally if someone isn't 'mentally challenged or irrational' clearly whatever they do isn't rape. Only really creepy fuckheads rape other people. Star swimmers aren't rapists, everyone knows that. Football players aren't rapists, because they can get pussy any time they want. 

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