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"Friend Zone" as Rape Culture and the Alpha\Beta Dichotomy


Myshkin

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9 hours ago, DunderMifflin said:

Rape kits exist and they are allowed to be used in the conviction(as they should be)

As opposed to deeming rape kits as inadmissable, which would be closer to not taking it seriously.

If they are not tested, they cannot be used in any conviction or in the investigation. They need to be tested to be useful in any way.

I know you are not as stupid as you are pretending to be. You know a rape kit untested is no better than none at all. You know nobody is saying that not taken seriously = actively trying to protect rapists. Not allowing rape kits in court would be actively protecting rapists, taking a rape kit and not bothering to test them to collect evidence is hard to construe as anything other than not taking the complaint seriously. Also, it's worth noting the police and prosecutors only have the ability to keep you from using rape kit evidence in court by not testing it. It's lawmakers and judges that determine what is and isn't allowed in court. 

I know you are not too stupid to connect those dots, so the only conclusion I can come to is that you are either trolling or just a tremendous asshole.

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6 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Perhaps I've missed something in situations where I've observed it irl (which isn't often), but I've never got the sense that there is always or even typically a sense of entitlement associated with being in the friend zone. And I can't say seeing it in movies / TV shows clearly comes with that attitude on the part of the besotted one.

The term "friendzone," as popularized by the manosphere/ American bro-culture is inherently embedded with the idea of entitlement, specifically entitlement to a woman's attention/ affection.  I know it's become used more generally to refer to situations in which a party decides they'd prefer to remain platonic, and it's perhaps loosened up across cultures and thrown around without intending to mean the more problematic, judgmental, loaded aspects.  But that's not what the term really means, at least in terms of the meaning that emanated from bro-culture.

There's neutral ways to describe the phenomenon of being told someone wants to "just be friends" with you, and "friendzone" isn't really a good term for that.   "Friendzone" is used to give the rejected male party a kind of victimhood status by faulting the woman for not giving him what he's owed/ earned.  

When people draw a line from the term "friendzone" to "rape culture," I'm pretty sure it's with this understanding of the term-- the inherently misogynistic, entitled, woman-blaming meaning to it.   

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27 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

I was under the impression that the term was popularized by the TV show 'Friends' a couple decades ago.

Is this a comment on my post?   Are you disagreeing that the term was popularized more recently in the manosphere/ bro culture as an inherently sexist way to describe the state of not getting the attention/ affection of a woman one is owed?

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1 minute ago, butterbumps! said:

Is this a comment on my post?   Are you disagreeing that the term was popularized more recently in the manosphere/ bro culture as an inherently sexist way to describe the state of not getting the attention/ affection of a woman one is owed?

I'm not denying that at all.  

I'm not at all familiar with the goings on of bro culture, whatever that is, so I'm not qualified to comment on how they might be using the term.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Swordfish said:

So how do you differentiate what's part of the 'rape culture' and what's part of 'human nature when it comes to not wanting to get convicted of something'.

 

You make it sound like they are two separate things.

 

Part of what makes up the rape culture, wherein rape victims are disbelieved, their experience discounted, and the concept of consent is belittled, is the true fact that many of the actions taken to get out of legal trouble when it comes to being accused of rape have worked in the past and continue to work. Things like slut-shaming, gas lighting, appealing to the damage to the alleged rapist, etc., are all done in attempt to get someone not charged or convicted of rape, and all of that contribute to the rape culture.

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2 minutes ago, TerraPrime said:

You make it sound like they are two separate things.

 

Part of what makes up the rape culture, wherein rape victims are disbelieved, their experience discounted, and the concept of consent is belittled, is the true fact that many of the actions taken to get out of legal trouble when it comes to being accused of rape have worked in the past and continue to work. Things like slut-shaming, gas lighting, appealing to the damage to the alleged rapist, etc., are all done in attempt to get someone not charged or convicted of rape, and all of that contribute to the rape culture.

yes.  i understand that.  But some of this stuff is just 'culture'.  It's the same for any crime, and are not specific to rape.

That's the part I struggle with a little. "This thing happens whenever people are accused of any crime, but this time, the crime happens to be rape, so... rape culture'.

I think that makes things a little nebulous.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

yes.  i understand that.  But some of this stuff is just 'culture'.  It's the same for any crime, and are not specific to rape.
That's the part I struggle with a little. "This thing happens whenever people are accused of any crime, but this time, the crime happens to be rape, so... rape culture'.
I think that makes things a little nebulous.

Slut-shaming is pretty specific to rape. As is the tendency to question the reality of the crime. You don't question the reality of assault, burglary or murder by saying the victim was actually consenting do you?

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Just now, Rippounet said:

Slut-shaming is pretty specific to rape. As is the tendency to question the reality of the crime. You don't question the reality of assault, burglary or murder by saying the victim was actually consenting do you?

 Dependent probably mostly on how badly the victim was beaten, you might very well hear "he asked for it" when it comes to an assault. Not that this makes it right, but It's not unheard of. Same with a burglary but probably to a lesser extent. "Dumbass left the bathroom window open for a week when they went on vacation." Etc, etc. 

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6 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

yes.  i understand that.  But some of this stuff is just 'culture'.  It's the same for any crime, and are not specific to rape.

That's the part I struggle with a little. "This thing happens whenever people are accused of any crime, but this time, the crime happens to be rape, so... rape culture'.

I think that makes things a little nebulous.

 

 

Not all crimes are as personally invasive as rape. When people try to get out of paying the price of burglarizing someone's house, it's a lot less personal.

Also, not all crimes enjoy the same routine series of excuses and doubts. Yes, we might hear those excuses applied to other contexts, but I am hard pressed to think of a set of crime that routinely, consistently, and historically receive that same litany of excuses that rape does.

Is there enough overlap to propose a "drunk driving" culture? Yes, I think so. And I think some would argue that there is, where DUIs are not punished as severely and often simply not prosecuted. We tend to forgive people because most people have done it themselves.

Also, there is a gun violence culture at work, already, so rape culture is not a unique phenomenon in that regard.

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2 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 Dependent probably mostly on how badly the victim was beaten, you might very well hear "he asked for it" when it comes to an assault. Not that this makes it right, but It's not unheard of. Same with a burglary but probably to a lesser extent. "Dumbass left the bathroom window open for a week when they went on vacation." Etc, etc. 

That would be victim-shaming all right, but still not questioning the very occurrence of a crime.

Also, the whole point of the concept of "rape culture" is to point out that it's the crime where victim-shaming or some form of judgmentalism is almost systematic. That doesn't mean that something like victim-shaming is absolutely exclusive to rape.
Also, the thing is that it's terribly efficient. Most rapes go unreported and even among those that are, most of them don't see the perpetrator end up in jail.

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17 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Slut-shaming is pretty specific to rape. As is the tendency to question the reality of the crime. You don't question the reality of assault, burglary or murder by saying the victim was actually consenting do you?

Also, I know of very few crimes that actually have victims where the person makes a plea to get off because of just getting a little amount of pleasure out of it and ignores, well, the actual victim. The closest version to this are things like DUI or manslaughter, where the person seems to be actually making a mistake that hurts someone.

So yeah, rape is being compared to simply making a mistake, like you accidentally get someone drunk and then abuse them in an alleyway somewhere. And that makes sense to judges, somehow. 

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1 hour ago, Rippounet said:

Slut-shaming is pretty specific to rape. As is the tendency to question the reality of the crime. You don't question the reality of assault, burglary or murder by saying the victim was actually consenting do you?

It happens all the time. particularly in law enforcement there are so many scams and hustles that involve lying about a crime there's often a default state of disbelief.

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I think this thread has missed a lot of things that are meant about rape culture. With burglaries, there aren't hundreds of movies out there with the plot of "bother homeowner until they let you in" to normalize that no means yes and that a woman who says no doesn't know what's good for her or that it's funny to get girls so drunk they agree to things they would t otherwise. There isn't a culture for that you can compare to tons of fear that the woman you are taking out on dates might only want the dates and not sex or a relationship with you. You can't compare other things to if you don't respond positively to catcalling you get namecalled instead. You can't compare anything else to the hundreds of little ways women are taught to modify their lives so they won't get raped. I'm not just talking about don't dress like that, don't get drunk, don't walk alone at night. I'm talking about how women are less likely to stop and talk to homeless men or give them money, how we try to smile and be pleasant to strangers in public being awful, how we try to take up less physical space, it's pervasive and it is so ingrained that we don't even think about it. But these are societal pressures that come from the idea that men feel entitled to your attention and that you are responsible for the consequences, not them.

I also really really hate comparing rape to robberies. We aren't commodities or property to be taken. We are people, and what we are talking about isn't theft but a violation of our safety, our autonomy, and our physical and mental health. It's not analogous to a beating or to a theft. It's closer to things like molestation and murder.

There is no other crime where the cops or your acquaintances might ask what you were wearing when you report it. As though you could wear something that would cause someone to rape you. Most people picture rape as a stranger jumping out of the bushes at night and physically forcing you- and that's not most rape. They don't think the guy cruising last call for girls who are too drunk to consent and bringing them home is the same thing- but it is. They don't think the guy who you've gone home with but something isn't clicking so you stop him short of intercourse who keeps going is a rapist. They don't think the guy who penetrates his girlfriend who says no to anal and claims it was an accident and jokes about it to his buddies is a rapist. But those things are all rape in the eyes of the law. Women are educated about how to avoid getting raped in every part of their behavior and demeanor- but most men are not 100% clear on what behavior of theirs constitute rape, some of which is even very normalized. That's what rape culture is. If you don't see it, it's because you don't want to.

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16 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

It happens all the time. particularly in law enforcement there are so many scams and hustles that involve lying about a crime there's often a default state of disbelief.

Really? Let's see some sources. Show us similar cases of different crimes where DNA evidence is routinely collected and then not tested or run against criminal databases. I don't think such a thing exists but if it does we should all be aware.

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30 minutes ago, Kelli Fury said:

Really? Let's see some sources. Show us similar cases of different crimes where DNA evidence is routinely collected and then not tested or run against criminal databases. I don't think such a thing exists but if it does we should all be aware.

5 second Google search, here we have reports of police not even showing up for burglaries, even when a suspect is caught.http://www.dailynews.com/general-news/20160412/why-the-police-dont-care-that-thieves-broke-into-your-home-susan-shelley

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2 hours ago, DunderMifflin said:

5 second Google search, here we have reports of police not even showing up for burglaries, even when a suspect is caught.http://www.dailynews.com/general-news/20160412/why-the-police-dont-care-that-thieves-broke-into-your-home-susan-shelley

 

So what is your thesis here? That rape culture isn't a thing at all? That rape is just like any other crime (assuming that the other crimes are all alike to begin with)? That the type of dismissal rape cases receive are routine occurrence for all other types of crimes? Basically an Officer Barbrady response of "Move along, nothing to see here?"

 

Because, if that is the case, then, ironically, what you're doing is part of what the rest of us see as part of the rape culture. I hope this isn't the case and I don't have to watch my irony meter break.

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On 4/2/2017 at 0:57 PM, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I think from a little bit of reading that Turner believed he had gotten the girls consent and didn't believe he was guilty, neither did his parents. 

And that comes back to my point about communication, especially when 2 people have been drinking. Its never as clear cut as people like to make out. 

 

Oh look I found this gem.

 

No. There are no communications that will stand as valid if a man is sexually assaulting a woman who's passed out, regardless of whether the assailant is himself intoxicated, or not. There are no definitions of consent that can withstand that exception without breaking. There are also no human decency standard that will bear equal credibility to the assailant and the assailed, when there's clear evidence to document the assault. Our moral decency compels us to believe the assailant absent clear contradiction.

 

So, no, take your gaslighting to a darker corner, s'il vous plait.

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22 minutes ago, TerraPrime said:

 

Oh look I found this gem.

 

No. There are no communications that will stand as valid if a man is sexually assaulting a woman who's passed out, regardless of whether the assailant is himself intoxicated, or not. There are no definitions of consent that can withstand that exception without breaking. There are also no human decency standard that will bear equal credibility to the assailant and the assailed, when there's clear evidence to document the assault. Our moral decency compels us to believe the assailant absent clear contradiction.

 

So, no, take your gaslighting to a darker corner, s'il vous plait.

Further to this precise statement, every law on the issue in my jurisdiction would convict someone if they assaulted someone who had passed out, on the simple basis that consent cannot be given.

Extract from WA Criminal Code, s 319 (2):

(a) consent means a consent freely and voluntarily given and, without in any way affecting the meaning attributable to those words, a consent is not freely and voluntarily given if it is obtained by force, threat, intimidation, deceit, or any fraudulent means;

(b) where an act would be an offence if done without the consent of a person, a failure by that person to offer physical resistance does not of itself constitute consent to the act

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