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(The) North Noble House Scenario


James Steller

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Imagine you're the head of a noble house in the North (assume it’s been there for as long as the others). You became the Lord of your house at the age of 16, and you became a father for the first time two years later. That was two long decades ago. You have had to bury two wives and three children during your life, leaving you with seven children of various ages.

Summer is giving way to fall. The crops have been gathered from the last harvest. And with the urgencies of preparation having been eased, and the responsibilities of toil fulfilled, the quiet is giving way to restlessness. The Boltons and the Hornwoods are feuding over a land dispute. House Karstark is plagued with scandal of the highest order. The Lockes of Oldcastle and Flints of Widow’s Watch both accuse House Manderly of trying to widen their influence into their territory (Lord Cooper Locke resents and distrusts the presence of Andals and their faith within the North, as well as the fact that his family once held the land which Lord Tulkas Manderly now holds).

Perhaps due to this trouble, as well as tradition, King Perrin Stark has summoned his lords to a grand harvest feast. Many have come, even from as far as the mountain clans and the Neck. You leave your eldest child, a 20-year old young man named Althor, to manage your lands and be with his pregnant wife, even as you take the rest of your children with you to Winterfell.

King Perrin is well loved, and he is a gracious host, and this feast is an opportunity to forge new bonds between the noble houses.

For instance, your 18-year old daughter, Ygraine, was previously engaged to the son of Lord Rufe Glover, but he was killed by Ironborn reavers. Rufe's daughter will now inherit, so Ygraine is being courted by the heirs to three houses:
-Mokkan Flint of Flint's Finger. While he is a celebrated hero in the North, and a veteran of many battles with the Ironborn, some say his mind has been affected by the violence which he has faced, and it causes him to brood and even occasionally have violent mood swings.
-Finbar Hornwood, a handsome young man who is a boyhood friend of King Perrin’s third son, Rorik, but who has also allegedly fathered three bastards amongst his smallfolk.
-Ser Rupert of House Mawk, heir to a new and relatively poor knightly house in service to Lord Tulkas Manderly.

Opportunities also arise for your two youngest sons. Aram and Ellis are both old enough to be fostered. Lady Cregga Hornwood offers to foster Ellis, though you suspect that refusing to wed Ygraine to her son will cause her to withdraw her offer. The venerable Cecil Mormont offers to take Aram to foster. On the one hand, Mormont’s sister is married to your eldest son, but you know that Bear Island has been very hard-pressed fighting waves of Ironborn as of late. At the same time, Lord Jal Karstark has said he would gladly foster both boys so that they may still bond as brothers. While this might seem like a good offer, House Karstark is at a very low point. A few years ago, Jal’s brother, Willard, raped the young daughter of the master-of-horse at Karhold and strangled her so she could not report the crime. A witness saw Willard trying to hide the body, and he fled for the Wall. Jal was slow to react, as he could not bear to be complicit in the death of his brother, believing that the Wall would be a chance for Willard to redeem himself. Even though he paid a high weregild to the girl’s family, his reputation has been permanently stained. Most would grudgingly admit that Jal is a good man, but they would also say that the past is writ in stone. You know that Jal also has a young son of his own which he wants fostered, but Jal has not made it a condition that you take on his own child (you suspect that is because he doesn’t expect you to even consider his offer.

Your second daughter, Iseult, is 16, and has always been a difficult girl. She disdains womanly activities, and prefers to ride horses and go on hunts. While you used to indulge her wild spirit, you worry that she will not ever wish to marry. Meanwhile, a number of suitors are interested in her. The heir of Lord Lleyn Bolton, the third son of Lord Cooper Locke, and Ser Joar Manderly, the second son of Lord Tulkas. Iseult finds fault with all of them. The Bolton boy is brutish and a bully to those beneath him, the Locke boy is stupid, and speaks with a stammer, and while Ser Joar is an honourable warrior, he is also a devout worshipper of the Seven. At the last minute, a fourth suitor makes himself known: no less than Steapa Norrey, the heir to clan Norrey in the mountains. Norrey suggests that Iseult become his bride, as he greatly admires her familiarity with weapons and horses. This time it is you who sees many faults: the mountain clans have a much more primitive culture than Iseult is used to, and though she prefers more masculine pursuits, you suspect that living in the mountains will prove too much for her to endure, even if it does give her more freedom. This will be especially true with winter coming. Such a connection would also provide you with no new power or advantages, as the clans have precious little to offer in terms of allegiance, resources, or technology.

Your third daughter, Lolla, is drawing attention as well, even though she is only 12 years old. Owain Umber’s son is 16, but he offers to wait for Lolla to come of age. In the meantime, he’ll invite her to live with her soon-to-be husband and also take either Aram or Ellis to foster, so that Lolla will not be alone at Last Hearth. You are hesitant, as Lolla is clearly terrified of the Umbers’ wild appearance and their booming personalities, and you wonder if she’d ever get used to living there. However, a bond with the Umbers would be very valuable. At the same time, you notice that Lolla seems to get along very well with Wulf, the young son of Lord Ublaz Reed. Ublaz is an old friend of King Perrin, but none of the Northern lords would even consider a match with a crannogman who lives in the swamps of the Neck.

Trouble strikes your family through your 18-year old son, Gereint. Years before any real resentment and feuding had begun between Locke, Manderly and Flint, Gereint was engaged to wed Elayne Flint, the heir to Widow’s Watch, and was fostered with Lord Locke. He has become a close friend to Lord Locke’s sons, and when feelings came to a head, he took their side against House Manderly. He approaches you at the feast, saying he knows about Manderly’s offers of marriage into his household and bannermen. He urges you to turn them away, and keep Tulkas at arm’s length, for he is nothing but a greedy, social-climbing southron descended from Andal refugees. For his part, Lord Tulkas treated you with utmost courtesy, and remarked that he wished no ill will from your family, regardless of any trouble which the Lockes and Flints will want to make. However, you know that this trouble is concerning even King Perrin, and it may lead to armed conflict, and you know full well that Gereint will not shy away from such an outcome. This is a difficult moment: taking any action which is not against the Manderlys will disgust Gereint and the Lockes and they will call it disloyalty and/or cowardice. However, taking an active part in violence will turn not only the Manderlys, but the Starks themselves against you. And attempting to take Gereint out of this situation will mean breaking his engagement to the Flint girl, which would be an unprecedented act of breaking marriage agreements. The Boltons and Hornwoods have also made it clear that you will have to choose of which of them you ally yourself with.

What do you do, and how do you run this household?

Note to the administrators: I assure you this is not a game, this is strictly a hypothetical scenario that is entirely subjective and up to each person who answers.

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First Tulkas Manderely ftw (Old school Tolkien) Also nice use of weregild, not sure its used in ASOIAF but nice regardless.

Ygraine will marry Finbar Hornwood. Bastards Snows don't concern me especially born of smallfolk, there is always the Wall if it becomes a issue

Ellis will be send to Jal Karstark, yes what happened was horrible but that's why the Wall exists. I will also offer to take his son to ward. The Karstarks are an old and important house, its always good to be friends to someone who has none. Also might be able into talking his son into marrying my third daughter Lolla if need be.

Iseult is going to the Boltons. Having my daughters being married to the heirs of Hornwood and Bolton might aid in bringing the conflict to an end. Mayhaps not immediately but in time there is a chance. Winter with the mountain clans is dangerous at the best of times, I would much have her safe in the Dreadfort.

I will betroth Lolla to the Umbers and send be Aram with her. No need to promise a wedding and we'll see how she feels about it in a few years. Considering I want to keep the Karstarks as an opinion.

Gereint is a full grown man and can make his own decisions. Althor is my heir and I will not get drawn into a needless feud. I have no interest in angering the Starks and the Manderely's as well. I could honestly care less what my son or House Locke thinks of me. If he wants to stay with House Flint and get involved with their issues that is his choice but he will get no support from me or my household. I will follow the Starks lead. Also I am not marrying any of my kids to Manderely for what its worth which should please them.

I will attempt to bring peace between Bolton and Hornwood but if I am forced to make a choice it will be Bolton. Again provided my daughters give them both sons the children of Hornwood and Bolton will share blood via my house which hopefully with help with the feud.

I enjoyed this prompt.

 

 

 

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Of course your last one is the most elaborate one.

First of all, I don't care if they're Andals, the future lies with House Manderly. I'll betrothe Ygraine to Ser Rupert, since any knight serving White Harbour won't stay poor for long. I'll also betrothe Iseult to Joar Manderly, she'll be well looked after.

In the case of my youngest sons, I will need allies when I refuse to take sides in the Bolton/Hornwood hullabaloo, and also when I pick the Manderlys over the Flints and Lockes. Given that Mormont's grandchild will inherit my house, I've already got him in the bag. So I agree to send Aram to Karhold and agree to foster the young Karstark boy. He is innocent of his father's crimes, so there's no shame in taking him in. Plus this will put Lord Jal in my debt for life so he'll bend over backwards to raise my son as best he can.

Ellis will go with Lolla to Last Hearth. I don't care about allegiance with the crannogmen. My daughter will learn that looks can be deceiving and she may yet love her betrothed Umber boy.

Gereint seems to have entrenched loyalties, and he's already an adult capable of making his own decisions. But if those decisions turn him against me just because I don't want to break our King's peace, then he will be disowned. Let him rule Widow's Watch and take the Flint name, I have already buried three kids, I can disown one if it's necessary.

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10 hours ago, James Steller said:

Imagine you're the head of a noble house in the North (assume it’s been there for as long as the others). You became the Lord of your house at the age of 16, and you became a father for the first time two years later. That was two long decades ago. You have had to bury two wives and three children during your life, leaving you with seven children of various ages.

Summer is giving way to fall. The crops have been gathered from the last harvest. And with the urgencies of preparation having been eased, and the responsibilities of toil fulfilled, the quiet is giving way to restlessness. The Boltons and the Hornwoods are feuding over a land dispute. House Karstark is plagued with scandal of the highest order. The Lockes of Oldcastle and Flints of Widow’s Watch both accuse House Manderly of trying to widen their influence into their territory (Lord Cooper Locke resents and distrusts the presence of Andals and their faith within the North, as well as the fact that his family once held the land which Lord Tulkas Manderly now holds).

Perhaps due to this trouble, as well as tradition, King Perrin Stark has summoned his lords to a grand harvest feast. Many have come, even from as far as the mountain clans and the Neck. You leave your eldest child, a 20-year old young man named Althor, to manage your lands and be with his pregnant wife, even as you take the rest of your children with you to Winterfell.

King Perrin is well loved, and he is a gracious host, and this feast is an opportunity to forge new bonds between the noble houses.

For instance, your 18-year old daughter, Ygraine, was previously engaged to the son of Lord Rufe Glover, but he was killed by Ironborn reavers. Rufe's daughter will now inherit, so Ygraine is being courted by the heirs to three houses:
-Mokkan Flint of Flint's Finger. While he is a celebrated hero in the North, and a veteran of many battles with the Ironborn, some say his mind has been affected by the violence which he has faced, and it causes him to brood and even occasionally have violent mood swings.
-Finbar Hornwood, a handsome young man who is a boyhood friend of King Perrin’s third son, Rorik, but who has also allegedly fathered three bastards amongst his smallfolk.
-Ser Rupert of House Mawk, heir to a new and relatively poor knightly house in service to Lord Tulkas Manderly.

Opportunities also arise for your two youngest sons. Aram and Ellis are both old enough to be fostered. Lady Cregga Hornwood offers to foster Ellis, though you suspect that refusing to wed Ygraine to her son will cause her to withdraw her offer. The venerable Cecil Mormont offers to take Aram to foster. On the one hand, Mormont’s sister is married to your eldest son, but you know that Bear Island has been very hard-pressed fighting waves of Ironborn as of late. At the same time, Lord Jal Karstark has said he would gladly foster both boys so that they may still bond as brothers. While this might seem like a good offer, House Karstark is at a very low point. A few years ago, Jal’s brother, Willard, raped the young daughter of the master-of-horse at Karhold and strangled her so she could not report the crime. A witness saw Willard trying to hide the body, and he fled for the Wall. Jal was slow to react, as he could not bear to be complicit in the death of his brother, believing that the Wall would be a chance for Willard to redeem himself. Even though he paid a high weregild to the girl’s family, his reputation has been permanently stained. Most would grudgingly admit that Jal is a good man, but they would also say that the past is writ in stone. You know that Jal also has a young son of his own which he wants fostered, but Jal has not made it a condition that you take on his own child (you suspect that is because he doesn’t expect you to even consider his offer.

Your second daughter, Iseult, is 16, and has always been a difficult girl. She disdains womanly activities, and prefers to ride horses and go on hunts. While you used to indulge her wild spirit, you worry that she will not ever wish to marry. Meanwhile, a number of suitors are interested in her. The heir of Lord Lleyn Bolton, the third son of Lord Cooper Locke, and Ser Joar Manderly, the second son of Lord Tulkas. Iseult finds fault with all of them. The Bolton boy is brutish and a bully to those beneath him, the Locke boy is stupid, and speaks with a stammer, and while Ser Joar is an honourable warrior, he is also a devout worshipper of the Seven. At the last minute, a fourth suitor makes himself known: no less than Steapa Norrey, the heir to clan Norrey in the mountains. Norrey suggests that Iseult become his bride, as he greatly admires her familiarity with weapons and horses. This time it is you who sees many faults: the mountain clans have a much more primitive culture than Iseult is used to, and though she prefers more masculine pursuits, you suspect that living in the mountains will prove too much for her to endure, even if it does give her more freedom. This will be especially true with winter coming. Such a connection would also provide you with no new power or advantages, as the clans have precious little to offer in terms of allegiance, resources, or technology.

Your third daughter, Lolla, is drawing attention as well, even though she is only 12 years old. Owain Umber’s son is 16, but he offers to wait for Lolla to come of age. In the meantime, he’ll invite her to live with her soon-to-be husband and also take either Aram or Ellis to foster, so that Lolla will not be alone at Last Hearth. You are hesitant, as Lolla is clearly terrified of the Umbers’ wild appearance and their booming personalities, and you wonder if she’d ever get used to living there. However, a bond with the Umbers would be very valuable. At the same time, you notice that Lolla seems to get along very well with Wulf, the young son of Lord Ublaz Reed. Ublaz is an old friend of King Perrin, but none of the Northern lords would even consider a match with a crannogman who lives in the swamps of the Neck.

Trouble strikes your family through your 18-year old son, Gereint. Years before any real resentment and feuding had begun between Locke, Manderly and Flint, Gereint was engaged to wed Elayne Flint, the heir to Widow’s Watch, and was fostered with Lord Locke. He has become a close friend to Lord Locke’s sons, and when feelings came to a head, he took their side against House Manderly. He approaches you at the feast, saying he knows about Manderly’s offers of marriage into his household and bannermen. He urges you to turn them away, and keep Tulkas at arm’s length, for he is nothing but a greedy, social-climbing southron descended from Andal refugees. For his part, Lord Tulkas treated you with utmost courtesy, and remarked that he wished no ill will from your family, regardless of any trouble which the Lockes and Flints will want to make. However, you know that this trouble is concerning even King Perrin, and it may lead to armed conflict, and you know full well that Gereint will not shy away from such an outcome. This is a difficult moment: taking any action which is not against the Manderlys will disgust Gereint and the Lockes and they will call it disloyalty and/or cowardice. However, taking an active part in violence will turn not only the Manderlys, but the Starks themselves against you. And attempting to take Gereint out of this situation will mean breaking his engagement to the Flint girl, which would be an unprecedented act of breaking marriage agreements. The Boltons and Hornwoods have also made it clear that you will have to choose of which of them you ally yourself with.

What do you do, and how do you run this household?

Note to the administrators: I assure you this is not a game, this is strictly a hypothetical scenario that is entirely subjective and up to each person who answers.

I am assuming we are as powerful as the boltons or any of the other major houses,as in third-fourth behind the starks with boltons being second behind them in terms of land and power.

Anyways,my second dauther goes to the boltons,one son will be fostered there as well,the other son will go to the Karstarks and i'll take the little karstark to foster.

My eldest daughter will go to the umbers if they agree to such a match,better wed them and bed them now,who knows if they'll be alive in a year,as for my youngest daughter she goes to the reeds.

Now for the 18 year old son,i'll not move to explicitly support any side,but if the monderlys start trouble,then house flint has my support because of the betrothal.

 

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So, when you say "Rufe's daughter will now inherit", we are talking about a child between him and my daughter right? My granddaughter is the current lady of Deepwood Motte?

Because, that would make my daughter Ygraine the current regent. And also make her outside my legal sphere of influence (since she is not part of my house anymore, but house Glover). Now, she might listen to me regardless - and personally I think she should go for neither. I am not particulary interested in taking part in the Bolton/Hornwood conflict on the hornwood side and especially not the Flint/Manderly/Locke conflict on any side (and will certainly use my daughters tie to house Glover if she chooses side here). She as regent should stay loyal to house Glover, make sure that she doesn´t have another child to avoid the risk of infighting and usurpation (true, that kid would have no rights to Deepwood Motte but stranger things has happened) and should take a husband (or have some fun on the side) that are of sufficiently low status. Then again - I cannot stop her legally.

For fostering I am going with Karstark. I honestly don´t see the scandal here. Even if Willard had been captured, the Wall should have been an option to him. It has been plain for everyone that the standards of the Wall never were as high as people think they are, its filled with rapers, southron losers from wars and the like. If Willards crime had been unthinkable, then the Wall wouldn´t have accepted him - but they did. Indeed, isn´t it a northern tradition that any criminal in Westeros who is sentenced to death or threatened with castration for example, can mitigate their crime by joining the Nights Watch? And Karhold is a strong fiend, who after this scandal have no ally but me. Perfect. I might also take his boy as squiring, but then again - I would probably see if I can milk out some money, resources or other nice thinks from it, preferably an agreement of military support - since I might consider some warring (see below). 

As for Iseault, I actually do find issue with her three suitors since I don´t want to get involved in the coming conflict(s) - at least not the Locke/Flint/Manderly one. So, tragically - the Norrey offer are one of the best offers. BUT, the Bolton son is making a good choice too (and my daughter need to marry someone) - and that more or less involves helping the Boltons in the war. And I like the idea to carve out a nice piece of Hornwood land for myself in these troubled times. I doubt the Starks will idly sit still while we butcher their territory like Poland between us but he might see a compromize. So, if I will start war with the Hornwoods too, I need an agreement on how to split the territory with the Boltons so that we later can petition king Stark about the new border changes. I think the king are willing to accept such a peace since that Manderly conflict will be hard to solve and involves violence. So, depending on how likely it is that the king will accept territorial changes when more or less forced to it as well as my proximity to the Hornwood (former?) lands decides this question. 

Lolla is far too young for marriage but I will discuss with the Reeds and Umbers both, making sure that I profit from resources or military alliance. The Reeds are attractive because no one else what them, but I am again uncertain about what value they can produce. And the Umbers are a bit...strange. Still, she is certainly not leaving the home at this point. 

As for the Locke/Flint/Manderly conflict, I appease Gereint and lord Tulkas alike with not accepting any marriage offers nor make any declaration of support. War is coming to that region and I (maybe) has some hornwoods to butcher. And to follow the Stark lead might make it possible to get away with it. When it does break out, I distance myself from Gereint (unless it is very clear that the Manderleys are the aggressors - which I doubt). 

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Marry Ygraine to the Hornwood heir, she'll be the Lady of House Hornwood once he inherits and her children will inherit the House one day, Her husband will have strong links to the Starks given his friendship with a son of the House. Meaning their children will maybe even get to be fostered at WF one day. 

Marry Iseult to the Bolton heir, again she gets to be Lady of the House one day, and her sons will inherit, her daughters will have good marriage prospects and the fact the two ruling ladies of Bolton & Hornwood will be sisters will likely bring an end to the dispute and may result in a cousin marriage forging peace and stability for the future. 

Take the Karstark boy to foster and allow one of your sons to go to Karhold. It will be good to have Jal indebted to you and you may benefit from reaching out to him in the long term. 

Betroth the youngest daughter to the Umber's and send her with her brother to be fostered until she is of age. She's only 12 and in all likelihood, as she gets older she won't be so fearful of loudness, having her brother will give her comfort whilst she gets over the difficult shy stage of adolescence and help her to be comfortable with leaving home. The Umbers are a strong and respected house and having a tie to them will be beneficial, even if this son is not the heir. though that wasn't specified.  

The 18-year-old son is a grown man and I can't stop him doing what he wishes. But I have avoided aligning myself with the Manderly's and thus if conflict does break out I can simply stay out of it and say that he is acting on his own. But if nothing comes of the dispute I haven't alienated my son from myself or any of his siblings by marrying into the Manderly's. 

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Way to go James, I suspect you outdid yourself for a reason :D But watch it, if you get any more complicated I will need to chart the names and relations in paper before thinking scenario through. And Arthurian names, you really have doubled down on Arthurian names.

One more thought, why are there no marriage offers for my character, scenario's POV, he is a Lord, 36 and seems like prime marriage material. Yeah, his wife died but it didn't stop him first time and nobility is generally not that interested in grieving periods since they marry for interest not love or lust. Btw I would try to marry Glover's daughter now that she is the heir.

Well fuck it Ygraine marries Flint, he may have violent mood swings but in contemporary era that is not the sole reason behind wife beating so it's not really that much of the added risk for her, hell maybe he will be even more courteous given that he is aware he has a problem.

Iseult marries Bolton. Boltons are famous for their love of hunting and hunt related activities. That means my grandson will be the Lord of Dreadfort and more importantly, it is good to be related to Boltons if my idiot of the second son somehow gets us in the trouble with Starks, as Boltons are very powerful and always happy to violently disagree with Starks.

Lolla goes to Umbers, Aram with her, she'll get used to Umbers, they are boisterous bunch but not known to be bad.

Ellis goes to Karstark, I pity the guy so much, as none of it is his fault, that I would send both of my boys to him, but Lolla needs company more that Ellis to ease her fear of Umbers. I do take his son to foster, though.

As my son has already made sure we will be involved and poisoning him is not an option, kinslaying and all, I will have to gear up for conflict with Manderly, even thought I will try not to get overly involved if possible, or at least make sure my hands are clean for starting the whole mess. I don't have to convince Stark I didn't start it, just enough of the lords to make Stark unlikely to interfere or give myself, Boltons and our other allies plausible chance to take down King in the North if he interferes on the Manderly behalf.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Protagoras said:

So, when you say "Rufe's daughter will now inherit", we are talking about a child between him and my daughter right? My granddaughter is the current lady of Deepwood Motte?

Because, that would make my daughter Ygraine the current regent. And also make her outside my legal sphere of influence (since she is not part of my house anymore, but house Glover). Now, she might listen to me regardless - and personally I think she should go for neither. I am not particulary interested in taking part in the Bolton/Hornwood conflict on the hornwood side and especially not the Flint/Manderly/Locke conflict on any side (and will certainly use my daughters tie to house Glover if she chooses side here). She as regent should stay loyal to house Glover, make sure that she doesn´t have another child to avoid the risk of infighting and usurpation (true, that kid would have no rights to Deepwood Motte but stranger things has happened) and should take a husband (or have some fun on the side) that are of sufficiently low status. Then again - I cannot stop her legally.

There's been a misunderstanding. Rufe is the current lord of Deepwood Motte. Ygraine was supposed to marry his son, but his son died. Rufe has no other son to inherit, so it will now be his daughter who inherits. This means Ygraine has no chance to get into Deepwood Motte and so now needs to find a new husband. I was trying to find a way to explain why an 18 year old girl was still unmarried.

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3 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Marry Ygraine to the Hornwood heir, she'll be the Lady of House Hornwood once he inherits and her children will inherit the House one day, Her husband will have strong links to the Starks given his friendship with a son of the House. Meaning their children will maybe even get to be fostered at WF one day. 

Marry Iseult to the Bolton heir, again she gets to be Lady of the House one day, and her sons will inherit, her daughters will have good marriage prospects and the fact the two ruling ladies of Bolton & Hornwood will be sisters will likely bring an end to the dispute and may result in a cousin marriage forging peace and stability for the future. 

 

The Hornwood/Bolton conflict is such that they won't have you marrying into both houses. You have to pick one of them, or none of them.

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6 hours ago, James Steller said:

There's been a misunderstanding. Rufe is the current lord of Deepwood Motte. Ygraine was supposed to marry his son, but his son died. Rufe has no other son to inherit, so it will now be his daughter who inherits. This means Ygraine has no chance to get into Deepwood Motte and so now needs to find a new husband. I was trying to find a way to explain why an 18 year old girl was still unmarried.

Ahh, ok - that changes it a bit.

Since I either want neutrality or gaining some new Hornwood land, I guess Mokkan then is the only reasonable choice. House Mawk is an insult (and tied to Manderly). Unless of course the Hornwood are willing to give me large tracts of land as a bride price (Yeah, I am unaligned and you are in a war with the Boltons. I am unaligned. Therefore you need to appease me. You want my help - you pay).

Mokken might be forcing me more into the Manderly conflict further, but unless I can see some profit for said war, my support will be very nominal.

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On 2017-04-01 at 6:43 PM, James Steller said:

Imagine you're the head of a noble house in the North (assume it’s been there for as long as the others). You became the Lord of your house at the age of 16, and you became a father for the first time two years later. That was two long decades ago. You have had to bury two wives and three children during your life, leaving you with seven children of various ages.

Summer is giving way to fall. The crops have been gathered from the last harvest. And with the urgencies of preparation having been eased, and the responsibilities of toil fulfilled, the quiet is giving way to restlessness. The Boltons and the Hornwoods are feuding over a land dispute. House Karstark is plagued with scandal of the highest order. The Lockes of Oldcastle and Flints of Widow’s Watch both accuse House Manderly of trying to widen their influence into their territory (Lord Cooper Locke resents and distrusts the presence of Andals and their faith within the North, as well as the fact that his family once held the land which Lord Tulkas Manderly now holds).

Perhaps due to this trouble, as well as tradition, King Perrin Stark has summoned his lords to a grand harvest feast. Many have come, even from as far as the mountain clans and the Neck. You leave your eldest child, a 20-year old young man named Althor, to manage your lands and be with his pregnant wife, even as you take the rest of your children with you to Winterfell.

King Perrin is well loved, and he is a gracious host, and this feast is an opportunity to forge new bonds between the noble houses.

For instance, your 18-year old daughter, Ygraine, was previously engaged to the son of Lord Rufe Glover, but he was killed by Ironborn reavers. Rufe's daughter will now inherit, so Ygraine is being courted by the heirs to three houses:
-Mokkan Flint of Flint's Finger. While he is a celebrated hero in the North, and a veteran of many battles with the Ironborn, some say his mind has been affected by the violence which he has faced, and it causes him to brood and even occasionally have violent mood swings.
-Finbar Hornwood, a handsome young man who is a boyhood friend of King Perrin’s third son, Rorik, but who has also allegedly fathered three bastards amongst his smallfolk.
-Ser Rupert of House Mawk, heir to a new and relatively poor knightly house in service to Lord Tulkas Manderly.

Opportunities also arise for your two youngest sons. Aram and Ellis are both old enough to be fostered. Lady Cregga Hornwood offers to foster Ellis, though you suspect that refusing to wed Ygraine to her son will cause her to withdraw her offer. The venerable Cecil Mormont offers to take Aram to foster. On the one hand, Mormont’s sister is married to your eldest son, but you know that Bear Island has been very hard-pressed fighting waves of Ironborn as of late. At the same time, Lord Jal Karstark has said he would gladly foster both boys so that they may still bond as brothers. While this might seem like a good offer, House Karstark is at a very low point. A few years ago, Jal’s brother, Willard, raped the young daughter of the master-of-horse at Karhold and strangled her so she could not report the crime. A witness saw Willard trying to hide the body, and he fled for the Wall. Jal was slow to react, as he could not bear to be complicit in the death of his brother, believing that the Wall would be a chance for Willard to redeem himself. Even though he paid a high weregild to the girl’s family, his reputation has been permanently stained. Most would grudgingly admit that Jal is a good man, but they would also say that the past is writ in stone. You know that Jal also has a young son of his own which he wants fostered, but Jal has not made it a condition that you take on his own child (you suspect that is because he doesn’t expect you to even consider his offer.

Your second daughter, Iseult, is 16, and has always been a difficult girl. She disdains womanly activities, and prefers to ride horses and go on hunts. While you used to indulge her wild spirit, you worry that she will not ever wish to marry. Meanwhile, a number of suitors are interested in her. The heir of Lord Lleyn Bolton, the third son of Lord Cooper Locke, and Ser Joar Manderly, the second son of Lord Tulkas. Iseult finds fault with all of them. The Bolton boy is brutish and a bully to those beneath him, the Locke boy is stupid, and speaks with a stammer, and while Ser Joar is an honourable warrior, he is also a devout worshipper of the Seven. At the last minute, a fourth suitor makes himself known: no less than Steapa Norrey, the heir to clan Norrey in the mountains. Norrey suggests that Iseult become his bride, as he greatly admires her familiarity with weapons and horses. This time it is you who sees many faults: the mountain clans have a much more primitive culture than Iseult is used to, and though she prefers more masculine pursuits, you suspect that living in the mountains will prove too much for her to endure, even if it does give her more freedom. This will be especially true with winter coming. Such a connection would also provide you with no new power or advantages, as the clans have precious little to offer in terms of allegiance, resources, or technology.

Your third daughter, Lolla, is drawing attention as well, even though she is only 12 years old. Owain Umber’s son is 16, but he offers to wait for Lolla to come of age. In the meantime, he’ll invite her to live with her soon-to-be husband and also take either Aram or Ellis to foster, so that Lolla will not be alone at Last Hearth. You are hesitant, as Lolla is clearly terrified of the Umbers’ wild appearance and their booming personalities, and you wonder if she’d ever get used to living there. However, a bond with the Umbers would be very valuable. At the same time, you notice that Lolla seems to get along very well with Wulf, the young son of Lord Ublaz Reed. Ublaz is an old friend of King Perrin, but none of the Northern lords would even consider a match with a crannogman who lives in the swamps of the Neck.

Trouble strikes your family through your 18-year old son, Gereint. Years before any real resentment and feuding had begun between Locke, Manderly and Flint, Gereint was engaged to wed Elayne Flint, the heir to Widow’s Watch, and was fostered with Lord Locke. He has become a close friend to Lord Locke’s sons, and when feelings came to a head, he took their side against House Manderly. He approaches you at the feast, saying he knows about Manderly’s offers of marriage into his household and bannermen. He urges you to turn them away, and keep Tulkas at arm’s length, for he is nothing but a greedy, social-climbing southron descended from Andal refugees. For his part, Lord Tulkas treated you with utmost courtesy, and remarked that he wished no ill will from your family, regardless of any trouble which the Lockes and Flints will want to make. However, you know that this trouble is concerning even King Perrin, and it may lead to armed conflict, and you know full well that Gereint will not shy away from such an outcome. This is a difficult moment: taking any action which is not against the Manderlys will disgust Gereint and the Lockes and they will call it disloyalty and/or cowardice. However, taking an active part in violence will turn not only the Manderlys, but the Starks themselves against you. And attempting to take Gereint out of this situation will mean breaking his engagement to the Flint girl, which would be an unprecedented act of breaking marriage agreements. The Boltons and Hornwoods have also made it clear that you will have to choose of which of them you ally yourself with.

What do you do, and how do you run this household?

Note to the administrators: I assure you this is not a game, this is strictly a hypothetical scenario that is entirely subjective and up to each person who answers.

Never trust the Boltons. If there's a dispute, I'm assuming that they're up to something. I betrothe Ygraine to Finbar Hornwood and send Ellis to foster there. 

I'll gladly foster Jal's son for him; no other lords are giving him time of day so he'll be happy with that gesture as it is. I express remorse that both my boys are already promised elsewhere, but he'll be grateful just to have me take in his son. 

Meanwhile, I send Aram to Bear Island. He will need to know how to fight so he can earn his way in the North.

Iseult clearly prefers Steapa, and it'll be good to have a branch of my family that's safe in the Northern mountains.

Lolla will go to Last Hearth. She needs to learn not to judge people by their physical appearances.

Gereint is making trouble, and I won't have any part in it. The Manderlys were welcomed by the Starks. I'll trust my king's judgement.

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16 hours ago, James Steller said:

The Hornwood/Bolton conflict is such that they won't have you marrying into both houses. You have to pick one of them, or none of them.

 

You said it wasn't a game and so there was no right and wrong answer?

I think there is a very good case for using strategic marriages to resolve the Hornwood-Bolton conflict. The dispute is over lands. so the obvious answer is to use my daughters to give each house a bride and heirs and then marry their children to each other to settle the land dispute.  I'm sure the Stark in WF will be happy to see a feud solved without bloodshed and will look favourably on me as someone who knows how to keep the peace and solve a sticky situation. So not only have I solved a problem which risked destabilising the north, I've found heirs for both my elder daughters to marry and I've won favour with House Stark. 

The Boltons and Hornwoods may not be happy at first to have their sons brides be sisters, but once negotiations have been made and The Stark see's how well this negates their conflict- meaning he does not have to mediate further and there will be no war.  I believe everyone will find it acceptable, especially if a contract can be drawn up in advance in regards to betrothals of future children of each union, tying up the disputed tract of land in a marriage between the two houses directly. 

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16 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

You said it wasn't a game and so there was no right and wrong answer?

I think there is a very good case for using strategic marriages to resolve the Hornwood-Bolton conflict. The dispute is over lands. so the obvious answer is to use my daughters to give each house a bride and heirs and then marry their children to each other to settle the land dispute.  I'm sure the Stark in WF will be happy to see a feud solved without bloodshed and will look favourably on me as someone who knows how to keep the peace and solve a sticky situation. So not only have I solved a problem which risked destabilising the north, I've found heirs for both my elder daughters to marry and I've won favour with House Stark. 

The Boltons and Hornwoods may not be happy at first to have their sons brides be sisters, but once negotiations have been made and The Stark see's how well this negates their conflict- meaning he does not have to mediate further and there will be no war.  I believe everyone will find it acceptable, especially if a contract can be drawn up in advance in regards to betrothals of future children of each union, tying up the disputed tract of land in a marriage between the two houses directly. 

Yes, it's not a game, but I set up a scenario with certain conditions.

That said, you do raise good points.

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7 hours ago, James Steller said:

Yes, it's not a game, but I set up a scenario with certain conditions.

That said, you do raise good points.

 

Cheers, Also I was thinking how the Hornwood heir has sway with the Starks younger brother and so he'll probably be very keen to resolve the dispute peacefully before the Hornwood heir buddies up with the younger Stark and tries to pressure him into coming down on the Hornwood side. Thus alienating the Boltons who are of course always a threat to Stark rule. My daughters offer a far sweeter mode of settling this dispute than a war where he is pressured to pick sides.  Especially with that Manderly dispute rearing its ugly head over at White Harbour too. 

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On 4/2/2017 at 8:43 AM, James Steller said:

Imagine you're the head of a noble house in the North (assume it’s been there for as long as the others). You became the Lord of your house at the age of 16, and you became a father for the first time two years later. That was two long decades ago. You have had to bury two wives and three children during your life, leaving you with seven children of various ages.

Summer is giving way to fall. The crops have been gathered from the last harvest. And with the urgencies of preparation having been eased, and the responsibilities of toil fulfilled, the quiet is giving way to restlessness. The Boltons and the Hornwoods are feuding over a land dispute. House Karstark is plagued with scandal of the highest order. The Lockes of Oldcastle and Flints of Widow’s Watch both accuse House Manderly of trying to widen their influence into their territory (Lord Cooper Locke resents and distrusts the presence of Andals and their faith within the North, as well as the fact that his family once held the land which Lord Tulkas Manderly now holds).

Perhaps due to this trouble, as well as tradition, King Perrin Stark has summoned his lords to a grand harvest feast. Many have come, even from as far as the mountain clans and the Neck. You leave your eldest child, a 20-year old young man named Althor, to manage your lands and be with his pregnant wife, even as you take the rest of your children with you to Winterfell.

King Perrin is well loved, and he is a gracious host, and this feast is an opportunity to forge new bonds between the noble houses.

For instance, your 18-year old daughter, Ygraine, was previously engaged to the son of Lord Rufe Glover, but he was killed by Ironborn reavers. Rufe's daughter will now inherit, so Ygraine is being courted by the heirs to three houses:
-Mokkan Flint of Flint's Finger. While he is a celebrated hero in the North, and a veteran of many battles with the Ironborn, some say his mind has been affected by the violence which he has faced, and it causes him to brood and even occasionally have violent mood swings.
-Finbar Hornwood, a handsome young man who is a boyhood friend of King Perrin’s third son, Rorik, but who has also allegedly fathered three bastards amongst his smallfolk.
-Ser Rupert of House Mawk, heir to a new and relatively poor knightly house in service to Lord Tulkas Manderly.

Opportunities also arise for your two youngest sons. Aram and Ellis are both old enough to be fostered. Lady Cregga Hornwood offers to foster Ellis, though you suspect that refusing to wed Ygraine to her son will cause her to withdraw her offer. The venerable Cecil Mormont offers to take Aram to foster. On the one hand, Mormont’s sister is married to your eldest son, but you know that Bear Island has been very hard-pressed fighting waves of Ironborn as of late. At the same time, Lord Jal Karstark has said he would gladly foster both boys so that they may still bond as brothers. While this might seem like a good offer, House Karstark is at a very low point. A few years ago, Jal’s brother, Willard, raped the young daughter of the master-of-horse at Karhold and strangled her so she could not report the crime. A witness saw Willard trying to hide the body, and he fled for the Wall. Jal was slow to react, as he could not bear to be complicit in the death of his brother, believing that the Wall would be a chance for Willard to redeem himself. Even though he paid a high weregild to the girl’s family, his reputation has been permanently stained. Most would grudgingly admit that Jal is a good man, but they would also say that the past is writ in stone. You know that Jal also has a young son of his own which he wants fostered, but Jal has not made it a condition that you take on his own child (you suspect that is because he doesn’t expect you to even consider his offer.

Your second daughter, Iseult, is 16, and has always been a difficult girl. She disdains womanly activities, and prefers to ride horses and go on hunts. While you used to indulge her wild spirit, you worry that she will not ever wish to marry. Meanwhile, a number of suitors are interested in her. The heir of Lord Lleyn Bolton, the third son of Lord Cooper Locke, and Ser Joar Manderly, the second son of Lord Tulkas. Iseult finds fault with all of them. The Bolton boy is brutish and a bully to those beneath him, the Locke boy is stupid, and speaks with a stammer, and while Ser Joar is an honourable warrior, he is also a devout worshipper of the Seven. At the last minute, a fourth suitor makes himself known: no less than Steapa Norrey, the heir to clan Norrey in the mountains. Norrey suggests that Iseult become his bride, as he greatly admires her familiarity with weapons and horses. This time it is you who sees many faults: the mountain clans have a much more primitive culture than Iseult is used to, and though she prefers more masculine pursuits, you suspect that living in the mountains will prove too much for her to endure, even if it does give her more freedom. This will be especially true with winter coming. Such a connection would also provide you with no new power or advantages, as the clans have precious little to offer in terms of allegiance, resources, or technology.

Your third daughter, Lolla, is drawing attention as well, even though she is only 12 years old. Owain Umber’s son is 16, but he offers to wait for Lolla to come of age. In the meantime, he’ll invite her to live with her soon-to-be husband and also take either Aram or Ellis to foster, so that Lolla will not be alone at Last Hearth. You are hesitant, as Lolla is clearly terrified of the Umbers’ wild appearance and their booming personalities, and you wonder if she’d ever get used to living there. However, a bond with the Umbers would be very valuable. At the same time, you notice that Lolla seems to get along very well with Wulf, the young son of Lord Ublaz Reed. Ublaz is an old friend of King Perrin, but none of the Northern lords would even consider a match with a crannogman who lives in the swamps of the Neck.

Trouble strikes your family through your 18-year old son, Gereint. Years before any real resentment and feuding had begun between Locke, Manderly and Flint, Gereint was engaged to wed Elayne Flint, the heir to Widow’s Watch, and was fostered with Lord Locke. He has become a close friend to Lord Locke’s sons, and when feelings came to a head, he took their side against House Manderly. He approaches you at the feast, saying he knows about Manderly’s offers of marriage into his household and bannermen. He urges you to turn them away, and keep Tulkas at arm’s length, for he is nothing but a greedy, social-climbing southron descended from Andal refugees. For his part, Lord Tulkas treated you with utmost courtesy, and remarked that he wished no ill will from your family, regardless of any trouble which the Lockes and Flints will want to make. However, you know that this trouble is concerning even King Perrin, and it may lead to armed conflict, and you know full well that Gereint will not shy away from such an outcome. This is a difficult moment: taking any action which is not against the Manderlys will disgust Gereint and the Lockes and they will call it disloyalty and/or cowardice. However, taking an active part in violence will turn not only the Manderlys, but the Starks themselves against you. And attempting to take Gereint out of this situation will mean breaking his engagement to the Flint girl, which would be an unprecedented act of breaking marriage agreements. The Boltons and Hornwoods have also made it clear that you will have to choose of which of them you ally yourself with.

What do you do, and how do you run this household?

Note to the administrators: I assure you this is not a game, this is strictly a hypothetical scenario that is entirely subjective and up to each person who answers.

My watchword in completing these is usually to try neutraility, particularly as allying with a side limits options. So let's try.

I take Jai Karstark up on his offer to foster both boys. Jai has clearly tried to do the right thing in this situation, and he is not his brother. I'm not going to rush to offer to take his son as ward, he may want to keep him there with his new playmates, but if he wants to, I will take him.

For Ygraine I try and draw out the marriage negotiations with all three prospective suitors. Personally I think the Hornwoods might be the better  option here, but I'd still like to settle peace between tham and the Boltons before marrying off my daughter. If needs be, I use my other daughter Iseult to wed the Bolton heir, and try and forge a peace between them. Otherwise, Iseult can marry whoever she choses.

Lolla seems a bit young to marry at the moment, and I'm not going to send her off to the Last Hearth without at least some company. At the same time, I'm not about to waste a valuable alliance, so I suggest that Owains son could spend some time courting her over the coming years. She might grow to appreciate him, see the man behind the grunken giant. But she stays with me.

My actions in not marrying off either of my daughters to Manderly should be enough to placate the Lockes and Flints. But I warn my son off taking part in any violent action, or I will break his engagement and call him home rather than having him ruin the family name. I also point out, if he earns the ire of the Starks, he will be sent to the Wall

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4 hours ago, 1000th Lord Commander said:

My actions in not marrying off either of my daughters to Manderly should be enough to placate the Lockes and Flints. But I warn my son off taking part in any violent action, or I will break his engagement and call him home rather than having him ruin the family name. I also point out, if he earns the ire of the Starks, he will be sent to the Wall

Can you still break off an engagement like that if your son is a legal adult? Also, the Lockes and Flints, and the rest of the North would be mortified if you did that.

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On 4/7/2017 at 0:45 AM, Canon Claude said:

Can you still break off an engagement like that if your son is a legal adult? Also, the Lockes and Flints, and the rest of the North would be mortified if you did that.

We don't have a lot of examples of people in ASoIAF going against family wishes. Although he is a legal adult, he still has to obey me as head of the family to a certain extent. About all we have as an example is Bryden Tully, who refuses the marriage offers his brother sets up for him.

it's still better then him embroiling my house in a war that could ruin my houses standing forever.

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34 minutes ago, leonardof said:

Are we still talking about the books here? Hasn't it crossed the border to fan fiction?

It's a hypothetical scenario. The OP does this from time to time and he creates scenarios for each region of Westeros. They're fun morality and strategy tests, basically. 

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