Is Mace Tyrell actually competent?

[shardofNarsil]

Mace Tyrell is regarded as a dumb oaf by Cersei and Olenna but is he really? He is always able to get the upper hand in every conflict with minimum casualties, take the Robert's Rebellion - his vanguard beats Robert while his main army remains unscathed ,he then spends the rest of the Rebellion besieging Storm's End where he is in a good position no matter who wins at the Trident .

Then during the WOT5K he again choses the best possible sides whenever he has to chose and at the end of it gets small council seats for his Lords ,his daughter as the queen and barely misses a claim to Winterfell through Sansa.

Nobody ever considers him as a serious player and still his family has gained where everyone else has lost much and more.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

9 minutes ago, shardofNarsil said:

his vanguard beats Robert while his main army remains unscathed

That was Randyll Tarly.

9 minutes ago, shardofNarsil said:

where he is in a good position

Yet 18 years old Stannis was able to beat him and Paxter Redwyne with the help of Davos bearing onions.

9 minutes ago, shardofNarsil said:

Nobody ever considers him as a serious player and still his family has gained where everyone else has lost much and more.

Yet it seems that Olenna is behind that.

[Dorian Martell's son]

10 minutes ago, shardofNarsil said:

Nobody ever considers him as a serious player and still his family has gained where everyone else has lost much and more.

He has some rather amazing family members and vassals as Jon's Queen Consort  has stated. As the Lord paramount of the most bountiful part os the kingdom, he just needs to show his strength as most every lord can feed their people with no problem 

[shardofNarsil]

28 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Yet 18 years old Stannis was able to beat him and Paxter Redwyne with the help of Davos bearing onions.

He didn't sent any men at the Trident yet noone can say that he didn't did his duty . It gave him the option to chose a side till very end without much hassle unlike Tywin.

Davos was the most elusive smuggler in the Seven Kingdoms and even Tywin couldn't have done anyting else except maybe throwing poisoned food into the castle using the seige weapons.

 

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

3 minutes ago, shardofNarsil said:

Davos was the most elusive smuggler in the Seven Kingdoms 

How do you know that?

4 minutes ago, shardofNarsil said:

He didn't sent any men at the Trident yet noone can say that he didn't did his duty . It gave him the option to chose a side till very end without much hassle unlike Tywin.

His army was at Storm's end. And unlike Tywin he had no reason to turn against Aerys while he could had profit.

[shardofNarsil]

5 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

How do you know that?

ACOK-

Quote

“Ser Davos,” the maester said. “When did you return?”
“In the black of morning. My favorite time.” It was said that no one had ever handled a ship by night half so well as Davos Shorthand. Before Lord Stannis had knighted him, he had been the most notorious and elusive smuggler in all the Seven Kingdoms.

 

8 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

 

His army was at Storm's end. And unlike Tywin he had no reason to turn against Aerys while he could had profit.

Reach can muster the biggest army in the Seven Kingdoms ,granted that Storms End was important ,Mace could have easily sent most of his forces to Trident and still be left with 15-20k soldiers for the siege yet he didn't .Not wasting resources when he can avoid it is reason enough it seems.

[Lord Lannister]

1 hour ago, shardofNarsil said:

Mace Tyrell is regarded as a dumb oaf by Cersei and Olenna but is he really?

Actually I'm fairly convinced his dumb oaf behavior is just a front to have his enemies underestimate him, as well. House Tyrell's role in the Rebellion was brilliantly played by Mace, declaring for the Targaryens, yet tying down his forces besieging Storm's End after skirmishing with Robert's forces. He doesn't risk much, yet in the event of a Targaryen victory he would be in position to be rewarded, yet didn't actually do much to draw the ire of the rebels, when they won. He bent the knee and called it a day.

In the War of the Five Kings, he manages to position himself on the winning side, gaining more and more influence during the process. Along with his daughter being Queen, he's now Hand to the King, and if he plays his cards right, he could be named Lord Regent assuming he has Margaery place the proper document in front of Tommen and his seal.

His method seems to be, he's willing to play the game, yet never truly commits his forces maintaining a medieval equivalent of a fleet in being.

[shardofNarsil]

1 minute ago, Lord Lannister said:

Actually I'm fairly convinced his dumb oaf behavior is just a front to have his enemies underestimate him, as well. House Tyrell's role in the Rebellion was brilliantly played by Mace, declaring for the Targaryens, yet tying down his forces besieging Storm's End after skirmishing with Robert's forces. He doesn't risk much, yet in the event of a Targaryen victory he would be in position to be rewarded, yet didn't actually do much to draw the ire of the rebels, when they won. He bent the knee and called it a day.

In the War of the Five Kings, he manages to position himself on the winning side, gaining more and more influence during the process. Along with his daughter being Queen, he's now Hand to the King, and if he plays his cards right, he could be named Lord Regent assuming he has Margaery place the proper document in front of Tommen and his seal.

His method seems to be, he's willing to play the game, yet never truly commits his forces maintaining a medieval equivalent of a fleet in being.

That what I have been thinking, the Tyrells are what I always wish the starks were like.They are all cool and each kid is supported by the parents, they play the game but with more guile and less ruthlessnes than the Lannisters. Mace knows the importance of good parenting something that Tywin completely missed .Even Loras doesn't feel rejected at all by his family. I wouldn't mind a Tyrell kingship if Stannis and Jon can't be kings.

 

[Renly's Banana]

56 minutes ago, shardofNarsil said:

That what I have been thinking, the Tyrells are what I always wish the starks were like.They are all cool and each kid is supported by the parents, they play the game but with more guile and less ruthlessnes than the Lannisters. Mace knows the importance of good parenting something that Tywin completely missed .Even Loras doesn't feel rejected at all by his family. I wouldn't mind a Tyrell kingship if Stannis and Jon can't be kings.

Which is why he forced his young and inexperienced son to joust against the Red Viper of Dorne, causing him to break his leg, all because of his pride and a feud. 

The simple truth of the matter is we don't know anything about the Tyrells behind closed doors. They're schemers and ruthlessly callous when it comes to their ambitions. They butter up Sansa and make her feel like she's cared for, but as soon as their plans for her fall apart they give her the cold shoulder and don't even attend her wedding. The three sons seem to be pretty okay guys, but I wouldn't trust Margaery, Mace or Olenna as far as I can throw 'em. Yeah they're not as bad as the Lannisters or Greyjoys, but they ain't the most trustworthy either. 

As for Mace, I think he's a pompous blowhard who's been coasting on luck + the good advice of his bannermen and mother.

[1000th Lord Commander]

I view him as competent, average. But I agree with many posters above that it is the people around him that cause him to thrive, his scheming mother, his scheming daughter, his more than capable bannerman. That's not to say that Mace is stupid or a lackwit, just that the people around him are better.

[theblackdragonI]

2 hours ago, shardofNarsil said:

That what I have been thinking, the Tyrells are what I always wish the starks were like.They are all cool and each kid is supported by the parents, they play the game but with more guile and less ruthlessnes than the Lannisters. Mace knows the importance of good parenting something that Tywin completely missed .Even Loras doesn't feel rejected at all by his family. I wouldn't mind a Tyrell kingship if Stannis and Jon can't be kings.

 

I'd say Olenna can play the game better than the Lannisters certainly. The rest of them can't at all. Loras is a hothead, Mace is a blustering fool who nobody takes seriously, Garlan has no interest and Margaery doesn't seem that conniving really. I'm not sure about the parenting so much. Margaery is forced to marry three times to advance their family's position (she doesn't seem thrilled about the prospect, more like she's acting) and Willas was forced to joust too early by Mace and is hidden away in Highgarden due to his disability. Sounds a lot like Tywin if you ask me. 

2 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Actually I'm fairly convinced his dumb oaf behavior is just a front to have his enemies underestimate him, as well. House Tyrell's role in the Rebellion was brilliantly played by Mace, declaring for the Targaryens, yet tying down his forces besieging Storm's End after skirmishing with Robert's forces. He doesn't risk much, yet in the event of a Targaryen victory he would be in position to be rewarded, yet didn't actually do much to draw the ire of the rebels, when they won. He bent the knee and called it a day.

In the War of the Five Kings, he manages to position himself on the winning side, gaining more and more influence during the process. Along with his daughter being Queen, he's now Hand to the King, and if he plays his cards right, he could be named Lord Regent assuming he has Margaery place the proper document in front of Tommen and his seal.

His method seems to be, he's willing to play the game, yet never truly commits his forces maintaining a medieval equivalent of a fleet in being.

I'd put his actions in the Rebellion more down to cowardice than guile. I really doubt he was keeping his options open seeing as he was starving Robert's two younger brothers to death while feasting in front of them every day. That's not something you would do if you were playing both sides. 

Although I do agree with your points about TWot5K, I imagine that was Olenna's ideas and not his. He doesn't seem very intelligent and the fact that nobody important shows him any respect or considers him an equal speaks volumes. 

[Makk]

You could make the case that politically he is adept, but I suspect it is more a case of good luck than shrewd political management and that he also has more powerful enemies than he realises which would be an oversight if that was the case. I think he also actually believes he is a tactical genius rather than that being an act and is about to get an unpleasant surprise on that front. Wait till Winds comes out and see if you still hold this view.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

In the War of the Five Kings, he manages to position himself on the winning side, gaining more and more influence during the process. Along with his daughter being Queen, he's now Hand to the King, and if he plays his cards right, he could be named Lord Regent assuming he has Margaery place the proper document in front of Tommen and his seal.

Mace doesn't need Tommen for that. The king is a boy and he, the Hand, speaks with the King's Voice. He can name himself the new Lord Regent and nobody is going to object to that. The Small Council is his, with Pycelle and Kevan dead. Harys Swyft is not going to object, and he is the only other member present (Qyburn was expelled from the council).

As to Mace himself, he may not be the sharpest knife in the box but he has ambitions and he is not stupid. Olenna derides and complains about everybody, not just Mace. We cannot dismiss him on the basis of her judgment.

And he has competent men around, Tarly foremost among them. The situation in the Epilogue is very tense. Mace and Tarly have the upper hand they rub it into Kevan's face.

[The Mountain That Flies]

I'd say Mace is a C+ intellect. He doesn't actively screw things up like Aerys, but he's also not coming up with any brilliant plans on his own. As has been mentioned he has vast resources (both in terms of manpower and capable advisors) at his disposal, so he doesn't need to be terribly smart to succeed.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

I always thought there was something suspicious about the way Olenna loves to publicly emasculates Mace. Maybe Olenna and the Tyrells want everyone to think Mace is a moron when he isn't for some reason. At the end of the day he's her son and her blood and she helped raise him, if he's an oaf it's partly her fault.

[PCK]

The Tyrells are kind of a mirror to the Lannisters in some ways.

The senior member who can play the game of thrones:  Tywin-Olenna

The vain and incompetent one: Cersei-Mace

The disfigured but clever one: Tyrion-Willas

The hotheaded knight: Jaime-Loras

The dutiful one not obsessed with glory: Kevan-Garlan

[Humble Maester]

Mace is intelligent enough to listen to (much) of the good advice he gets from those around him and effectively utilized the skills of his bannermen. He might be no Tywin Lannister or Ned Stark to lead through the brilliance of his own character but as a great lord with great advisors he seems to be doing fairly well.

Better to have an incompetent ruler that listens keenly to the advice of others than a mediocre one that doesn't, if you ask me.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

16 hours ago, shardofNarsil said:

Reach can muster the biggest army in the Seven Kingdoms ,granted that Storms End was important ,Mace could have easily sent most of his forces to Trident and still be left with 15-20k soldiers for the siege yet he didn't .Not wasting resources when he can avoid it is reason enough it seems.

He could but he prefered what was safer, which is mostly what the cowards do. They don't fight, they do the easy stuff and expect to get the profit.

16 hours ago, shardofNarsil said:

ACOK-

You are right. But this wasn't just a harbor, this was a siege. There is a huge difference between them.

[UnFit Finlay]

Interesting question, actually and one that I hadn't really considered.

After all, Doran Martell and Wyman Manderly are two glaring examples of influential Lords who appear to be weak and craven to the outside world. It's not that hard to imagine that Olenna's relationship with Mace is similar to Doran and Oberyn's.

I will say that his dumbest move so far has been to give Brightwater Keep to Garlan and not to Randyll, who was probably the best placed claimant to it. I think that oversight is going to come back to haunt him.

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

20 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Actually I'm fairly convinced his dumb oaf behavior is just a front to have his enemies underestimate him, as well. House Tyrell's role in the Rebellion was brilliantly played by Mace, declaring for the Targaryens, yet tying down his forces besieging Storm's End after skirmishing with Robert's forces. He doesn't risk much, yet in the event of a Targaryen victory he would be in position to be rewarded, yet didn't actually do much to draw the ire of the rebels, when they won. He bent the knee and called it a day.

In the War of the Five Kings, he manages to position himself on the winning side, gaining more and more influence during the process. Along with his daughter being Queen, he's now Hand to the King, and if he plays his cards right, he could be named Lord Regent assuming he has Margaery place the proper document in front of Tommen and his seal.

His method seems to be, he's willing to play the game, yet never truly commits his forces maintaining a medieval equivalent of a fleet in being.

This may be the case. However, I loath the idea of it. I think it's more realistic to have at least some incompetent lords especially at tenant-in-chief level. Rome had how many great rules vrs average Joe's and insane and foolish and ect etc. You could count the good on your hands and maybe toes. The bad are nearly countless. 

But that's not the only reason put simply I just like the character better as an oaf.