Is Mace Tyrell actually competent?

[The Mountain That Flies]

2 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said:

I will say that his dumbest move so far has been to give Brightwater Keep to Garlan and not to Randyll, who was probably the best placed claimant to it. I think that oversight is going to come back to haunt him.

Yeah, that was just bone-headed and arrogant. Quality assistance like Randyll offers is pretty rare, and Mace not only ignoring the chance to reward that but actively thumbing his nose at it is idiotic. Even without taking into account that Randyll's loyalties could shift, how do you expect your subordinates to work hard for you when their payoff is seeing your second son get their reward?

[White Ravens]

GRRM has been pretty cagey regarding any information about the Tyrells.  Mace comes across as a buffoon but most of the other Tyrells we see are intelligent and competent, which suggests to me that it is an act he uses to encourage his opponents to underestimate him.  I loved it when Kevan named him Hand of the King and he installed an oak throne carved in the shape of a hand on the very same day!

[PCK]

42 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

GRRM has been pretty cagey regarding any information about the Tyrells.  Mace comes across as a buffoon but most of the other Tyrells we see are intelligent and competent, which suggests to me that it is an act he uses to encourage his opponents to underestimate him.  I loved it when Kevan named him Hand of the King and he installed an oak throne carved in the shape of a hand on the very same day!

That was hilarious.

[marsyao]

On 4/2/2017 at 3:17 PM, shardofNarsil said:

Mace Tyrell is regarded as a dumb oaf by Cersei and Olenna but is he really? He is always able to get the upper hand in every conflict with minimum casualties, take the Robert's Rebellion - his vanguard beats Robert while his main army remains unscathed ,he then spends the rest of the Rebellion besieging Storm's End where he is in a good position no matter who wins at the Trident .

Then during the WOT5K he again choses the best possible sides whenever he has to chose and at the end of it gets small council seats for his Lords ,his daughter as the queen and barely misses a claim to Winterfell through Sansa.

Nobody ever considers him as a serious player and still his family has gained where everyone else has lost much and more.

You would have to be very careful to Mace Tyrell by taking a look to his children, allow me to put the accomplishment of his children in modern day parallel, let us say there is a father living in today's America, he has 3 sons and 1 daughter, his eldest son is US senator, his middle son is US army 4 star general, his youngest son is a star quarterback and have multiple NFL championships under his belt, his daughter was former Miss USA and now an A class Hollywood actress, now tell me, this father may not be an Einstein, but what a chance he is a dumb idiots ?

[Lord Lannister]

3 hours ago, The Great and Mighty Poo said:

This may be the case. However, I loath the idea of it. I think it's more realistic to have at least some incompetent lords especially at tenant-in-chief level. Rome had how many great rules vrs average Joe's and insane and foolish and ect etc. You could count the good on your hands and maybe toes. The bad are nearly countless. 

But that's not the only reason put simply I just like the character better as an oaf.

It may be the case, this is all subjective after all given the lack of a Tyrell POV. His harshest critics are Olenna(who's harsh to everyone) and Cersei(who's harsh to anyone she doesn't happen to like), so that's not exactly concrete evidence. His accomplishments are what they are, regardless of if he lucked into them or not. It seems odd that the only oaf in the family is Mace when his mother and children are all as sharp as they come though.

[Lord Lannister]

32 minutes ago, marsyao said:

You would have to be very careful to Mace Tyrell by taking a look to his children, allow me to put the accomplishment of his children in modern day parallel, let us say there is a father living in today's America, he has 3 sons and 1 daughter, his eldest son is US senator, his middle son is US army 4 star general, his youngest son is a star quarterback and have multiple NFL championships under his belt, his daughter was former Miss USA and now an A class Hollywood actress, now tell me, this father may not be an Einstein, but what a chance he is a dumb idiots ?

I like this comparison a lot. Though throw First Lady into Marg's resume.

[devilish]

It depends how you see him.

Mace Tyrell doesn't lead armies to victory or there's no songs written about his cruelty. Yet, he's the LP of the strongest and most fertile region in Westeros. He barely lost any men or siblings in both civil wars. He raised four great children who are mentally stable and who are quite good in what they do. Not to forget that everyone from Starks to Martells, from Targs to Tullys love the Tyrells right to the smallfolk. Even Joffrey had a soft spot at Margaery,

The Rose is delicate and beautiful but it surely can sting. Stannis pissed them off and his arse is freezing in the North. Joffrey was a threat and he died poisoned which paved the way to the annihilation of the Lannisters, Were is the Lord 'Rains of Castamere'? Ah yeah he was shot dead in his latrine. Who knows, maybe if was 'dumb' then his children wouldn't have tried to kill him and his daughter would actually have Robert's sons

 

 

 

 

[marsyao]

13 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

I like this comparison a lot. Though throw First Lady into Marg's resume.

That is becasue I don't know any teenage US First Lady

[marsyao]

On 4/2/2017 at 3:24 PM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

 

Yet 18 years old Stannis was able to beat him and Paxter Redwyne with the help of Davos bearing onions.

 

Stannis did not beat him

[shardofNarsil]

1 hour ago, marsyao said:

You would have to be very careful to Mace Tyrell by taking a look to his children, allow me to put the accomplishment of his children in modern day parallel, let us say there is a father living in today's America, he has 3 sons and 1 daughter, his eldest son is US senator, his middle son is US army 4 star general, his youngest son is a star quarterback and have multiple NFL championships under his belt, his daughter was former Miss USA and now an A class Hollywood actress, now tell me, this father may not be an Einstein, but what a chance he is a dumb idiots ?

Add to that he himself is the Chair of the Board of a realm spanning corporation.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

16 hours ago, marsyao said:

Stannis did not beat him

Had Storm's End fallen?

[marsyao]

5 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Had Storm's End fallen?

No, Stannis held Storm's End against great odds, but he did not defeat army of the Reach who only surrendered to Ned after the fall of Targaryn, thus Stannis did not defeat Mace Tyrell

[Tralalala]

On 3.04.2017 г. at 10:31 PM, marsyao said:

You would have to be very careful to Mace Tyrell by taking a look to his children, allow me to put the accomplishment of his children in modern day parallel, let us say there is a father living in today's America, he has 3 sons and 1 daughter, his eldest son is US senator, his middle son is US army 4 star general, his youngest son is a star quarterback and have multiple NFL championships under his belt, his daughter was former Miss USA and now an A class Hollywood actress, now tell me, this father may not be an Einstein, but what a chance he is a dumb idiots ?

Success in society doesn't mean intellect neither does it indicate a lack of it. Basically yes he has 50/50 chance of being an idiot regarding everything but one thing that gave him his points or even everything. In the end of the day life isn't a computer that calculates intelligence points and determines success,life is mostly a game of chance and while skills/intellect play a part,a lesser man may succeed where better ones fail,of course it's all subjective whos better whos lesser...

 

I think Mace isn't as stupid as he's seen by others,but he isn't much smarter either...

[marsyao]

3 hours ago, Tralalala said:

I think Mace isn't as stupid as he's seen by others,but he isn't much smarter either...

People did not respect or fear Mace as they to Tywin, that was for sure, but don't think people think Mace stupid or was an idiot, that was D&D's doing

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

Mace Tyrell is an oaf, he is lucky he has competent vassls like Randyll Tarly, Mathis Rowan, Paxter Redwyne, ah, and he has a cunning daughter and a cunning mother.

[Lord Wraith]

I wouldn't say he is an idiot, but he is an overreaching vain man and not a great intellect. As others have noticed Randyll Tarly is responsible for his only so called victory in Robert's Rebellion. Olenna is the brains of the family and it seems that Willas will carry on in her stead. Granted most of Olenna's scheming is preventing too much fallout from Mace attempting to "ride the Lion."

I am looking forward to seeing how Willas and Garlan deal with Euron with the Ironborn, and the return of the Golden Company.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 4/4/2017 at 9:32 PM, marsyao said:

No, Stannis held Storm's End against great odds, but he did not defeat army of the Reach who only surrendered to Ned after the fall of Targaryn, thus Stannis did not defeat Mace Tyrell

He was able to hold SE for a year with very small army and at the end SE hadn't fallen, hence between the Baratheons and the Reach Stannis was the winner.

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 4/3/2017 at 0:02 PM, The Mountain That Flies said:

Yeah, that was just bone-headed and arrogant. Quality assistance like Randyll offers is pretty rare, and Mace not only ignoring the chance to reward that but actively thumbing his nose at it is idiotic. Even without taking into account that Randyll's loyalties could shift, how do you expect your subordinates to work hard for you when their payoff is seeing your second son get their reward?

Quality assistance like Tarly's is rare? Tarly is the best soldier in the Reach. That I can't and won't dispute. Mace has plenty of quality subordinates. Redwyne commands the largest fleet in Westeros and has both the knowledge and tactical acumen to ascertain a martial situation like DS and execute the proper plan to take it. Mathis Rowan is "sensible, prudent and well liked." Garlan is a more humble, more patient version of the most famous knight in Westeros. He probably should have awarded it to Tarly nonetheless but I think Mace wanted it totally out of Florent hands, and Melessa Florent is still a Florent.

[Walda]

Very capable, and very greedy.

He held Storms End at siege for an entire winter - historic medieval sieges collapsed in winter due to exposure of troops and supply chain logistics problems. But Mace had Storms End continually surrounded, and feasted in front of its gates every day.

Stannis did well to survive it (and if Randyll had pushed Robert's forces back to Summerhall, forcing them to retreat back to Storms End, rather than allow them to escape while grabbing the questionable glory of Cafferen's head for Arys, and Ashford for himself, Stannis and Robert and all those extra mouths would be forced to die or fight or surrender to Mace- Mace might have won the siege, but for Randyll's myopia and lack of strategic understanding, and self-aggrandizing tactics).

Eddard Stark ended the siege, in negotiation, without bloodshed. Stannis doesn't give him credit for that, and doesn't give Mace credit for negotiating with Eddard, either. He isn't big on negotiating himself. Isn't big on gratitude or giving people credit for doing their duty either. Especially he isn't good on giving credit to people who do their duty to kings that are not him. No way he would negotiate, or turn enemies into friends, or, for the sake of the lives of some traitors or enemies, concede an inch of ground that was his by rights, or that his duty demanded he hold.

Mace is a different kind of commander. He likes to give the young men a go. He likes to give his bannermen a chance for glory. He is always ready to cut a deal. He knows what side his bread is buttered on, and he supports that side - as long as it butters his bread. Look how he ended Robert's Rebellion: in spite of being a Targaryen loyalist to the very end, at the very end, with Storms End as his hostages, he managed to come out of the war with all his lands and banners. While Rykker and Thorne barely escaped the wrath of Lord Tywin, the Tyrells enjoyed the clemency of Robert and used Stannis as a bargaining chip for the justice of Eddard, not vise versa.

Everyone remembers how late and how reluctantly the Lannisters and the Freys came to the rebellion, and resents the various concessions made to keep them on side, distrusts them. Nobody forgets Darry was a Targaryen ally until the end. Or Griff. Yet Lord Tyrell maintains a reputation for being a staunch and trustworthy alliance worth cultivating, and keeps all his lands and wealth, while doing very little more than keeping the war from touching either, in spite of the proximity of the Storm King's land to his own fiefdom.

If Mace had been a bit keener on winning the war for Arys, he might have sussed out Lord Tywin's disposition and inclinations, and warned Arys ahead of time that Tywin's banners were massing on the boundries of the Westerlands, but not moving beyond them.

Also, it would be very difficult for Robert to get to Riverrun unmolested with his fresh troops, if Tyrell had been more determined to prevent Robert getting to Hoster Tully in the Riverlands. If Randyll had been ordered to chase Robert's troops into the hostile Riverlands, harassing them and bleeding them and preventing them from joining Hoster's, if Mace had sent reserves up to stregthen them, that could have resulted in the rebellion becoming a decisive victory for Arys.

But there was nothing in it for Mace, having his bannermen die defending the king on hostile land, rather than having them unthreatened, containing the threat of Stannis to Storm's End, and protecting the South from being razed. Yet he was considered a loyalist.

The first council Tyrion shared with him after the battle of Blackwater Rush shows his style - he knew the value of Tyrion's chain, knew that it was Tyrion's chain, and was quick to praise Tyrion

Quote

“That chain of yours, that was cunning,” Mace Tyrell had said in a jolly tone, and Lord Redwyne nodded and said, “Quite so, quite so, my lord of Highgarden speaks for all of us,” and very cheerfully too.
Tell it to the people of this city, Tyrion thought bitterly. Tell it to the bloody singers, with their songs of Renly’s ghost.(ASoS, Ch.19 Tyrion III)

Really, the chain was an important detail. But just a detail. Likewise the trebuchets, and the wildfire (and Cersei deserves some of the credit for the wildfire and for the defence of the walls, even if, without her brother's assistance, she would have stuffed it all up.) Tyrion is very prickly about not getting recognition. Tyrion is envious of Mace and vanguard getting all the credit for saving Kings Landing.

But Tyrion doesn't know or care about how others contributed. He hasn't really thought through the logistics of how the vanguard got from Bitterbridge to the gates of Kings Landing (I suspect Tywin helped, and that Mace had his bannermen in Highgarden take their barges on a surprisingly convoluted path, upstream to Golden Grove, then Silver HIll, then onto mining trucks and through a maze of tunnels under the mountains, coming out not too far from Tumblers Falls. Some of those with Renly's host may have gone overland from Bitterbridge to meet them (eg. Oakheart and Tarly)).  It is a mammoth task, moving that many that quickly, one that required Tywin's ingenuity as well as Mace's and Willas's to bring about.

Mace shows himself a bigger man than Tyrion. Like Tywin, he doesn't need applause. He is happy to give Lord Renly all the glory of leading the vanguard of his vanguard (and wasn't that a master stroke, when it came to reconciling the smallfolk of King's Landing to a queen that was so recently the wife of a traitor).  Mace ensures that Lord Tywin Lannister, as the commander that led the forces, gets full credit for the victory at Blackwater Rush, even if the battle was already decisively won by Mace's vanguard before Tywin's forces made it to the battlefield.

But Mace does care about getting paid. His loyalty comes at an affordable but increasing price. A place on the council, his daughter as queen, his sons as great lords with great lands, his bannermen with coin and titles and honours, great prices for the wayns of food that Highgarden brings to Kings Landing. The roses twine themselves around Kings Landing and the Lannisters, because it is so much easier to besiege your allies than your enemies.

Notice too, how quickly he and Lord Redwyne return to an excellent understanding - the awkwardness they might have had when Redwyne refused to join the Tyrells due to Horas and Hobber's situation is  undetectable. The only hint that there might ever have been any is in Lord Redwyne's request - no additional lands or titles (that would be taking spoils from Lord Tyrell and his banners), just a concessional tax arrangement on certain vintages of their own wine (which could, in the long run, be worth a great deal more - and which might stick in the craw of the Dornish vintner that made the wine that Tyrion shared with Slynt, but won't be making them any enemies among Stannis's bannermen).

The might of Highgarden provides the Redwynes a buffer against their enemies by land, and the Redwynes know it. The Redwyne navy provides Highgarden with protection against enemies by sea, and Highgarden knows it. And there are ties of blood and marriage that bind them. Lord Redwyne might harbour some quiet ill-will against the Lannisters for holding his sons, but his alliance with the Tyrells is stronger than ever.

Also, at that council, we get to hear what Mace thinks - or at least, what he voices in front of his Lannister allies:

Quote

“He has run back to Riverrun with his plunder, abandoning the castles he took in the west,” announced Lord Tywin. “Our cousin Ser Daven is reforming the remnants of his late father’s army at Lannisport. When they are ready he shall join Ser Forley Prester at the Golden Tooth. As soon as the Stark boy starts north, Ser Forley and Ser Daven will descend on Riverrun.”
“You are certain Lord Stark means to go north?” Lord Rowan asked. “Even with the ironmen at Moat Cailin?”
Mace Tyrell spoke up. “Is there anything as pointless as a king without a kingdom? No, it’s plain, the boy must abandon the riverlands, join his forces to Roose Bolton’s once more, and throw all his strength against Moat Cailin. That is what I would do.”(ASoS, Ch.19 Tyrion III)

Tyrion has to bite his tongue, but Robb does in fact head North for Moat Cailin. Tywin knew of the Robb's marriage, and the Frey wedding plans, we have no reason to believe Mace does. Yet Mace is right - Robb does believe that he must join his forces to Roose Bolton's and throw all his strength against Moat Cailin

Quote

He tapped a finger on the map. “Moat Cailin is the key"...
“You cannot mean to attack up the causeway, Your Grace,” said Galbart Glover. “The approaches are too narrow. There is no way to deploy. No one has ever taken the Moat.”
“From the south,” said Robb. “But if we can attack from the north and west simultaneously, and take the ironmen in the rear while they are beating off what they think is my main thrust up the causeway, then we have a chance. Once I link up with Lord Bolton and the Freys, I will have more than twelve thousand men.(ASoS, Ch.45 Catelyn V)

Note the way Mace delivers it as well - he appears only to be being a yes-man to the Great Military Commander Lord Tywin, subtly removing any necessity for Tywin to reply to the importuning questions of Lord Rowan, and at the same time, asserting his authority over Lord Rowan - Tywin might have bought Rowan's loyalty, but Mace Tyrell is not letting a situation develop where Tywin deals with Rowan directly.

His reasons for leaving the Eyrie alone  might be sexist and spurious, but as far as Lady Lysa is concerned, he happens to be right again. Tyrion, wrapped up in his own injured ego and self importance, says something that is rather rash and bloody and not especially necessary. In his personal sense of grievance, he has forgotten the history he knows perfectly well. Mace would not gainsay Tywin but he is perfectly happy to remind Tyrion:

Quote

“Better men than you have lost great armies in the Mountains of the Moon, or shattered them against the Bloody Gate. We know your worth, my lord, no need to tempt fate.”(ASoS, Ch.19 Tyrion III)

The 'leave fighting to the fighters' and 'better men than you' are inflammatory, but 'we know your worth' could be taken as a softening compliment for a hearer that did not like the Lannister honour mocked, and wasn't Tyrion.

And here, Mace is right, and Tyrion is wrong. Also, Mace has anticipated Tywin's intentions towards Lysa, although, as Tyrion observed, neither he nor Lord Redwyne were terribly keen on Petyr Baelish as the solution.

I think Mace has a scheme for Lysa and the Warden of the East, just as he has for Sansa and Warden of the North. Mace doesn't stop Lord Rowan expressing his pointless doubts about Baelish bringing peace to the vale. I'm wondering if they planned to marry Lysa to Horas or Hobber, or if they have some alliance with the Lords Declarant, some scheme that would result in Lord Rowan or Redwyne becoming Warden of the East, or Keeper of the Gate - something like that, that would give Highgarden influence in the Vale.

We know they are not really keen to let Balon have the North, either. Maybe for now, they would rather the Ironmen raze the North than turn their eyes to the fat lands to the South, but the North is too large a slice of the Kingdoms to leave in the hands of the Ironborn. And the history of Highgarden tells them that, the further inland they move, the less able the Ironborn are to hold territory.

Mace might not want to shed the blood of his own banners for the sake of Northmen right now, but he and his bannermen are very quick to drop the subject of the North almost as soon as it is raised. They don't want Tywin alerted to their scheme, until Willas is married to Sansa and there is nothing their Lannister inlaws can do but agree to such a practical arrangement.

I suspect Tyrell, Redwyne and Rowan had consolidated their position on the North before the council. Tyrion here sees them as sheep, unaware of how neatly they had been shorn, but really, he is the one that wasn't at the previous meetings, he is the one that did not know that he was destined to take Petyr's place as Master of Coin. The moral of this chapter is

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“The greatest fools are ofttimes more clever than the men who laugh at them,”(ASoS, Ch.19 Tyrion III)

Just as Stannis is incapable of appreciating the strengths of a commander so unlike himself, Tyrion sees Mace as a fool. But Mace proves himself to be a clever, clever fool, one with a good grasp of strategy, considerable subtlety, and endless greed.

Tywin has his measure, though, and has already foiled his potential alliance with Winterfell, and (with Petyr Baelish's assistance) his potential alliance with the Eyrie, both of which would bind the Starks to Highgarden. 

[marsyao]

5 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

He was able to hold SE for a year with very small army and at the end SE hadn't fallen, hence between the Baratheons and the Reach Stannis was the winner.

No, Robert Baratheon was the winner, Stannis Baratheon contributed greatly to his elder brother's victory, but Stannis did not defeat army of the Reach, Had Robert not won the war, the Storn's end would have fallen because of starvation despite the delivery of food by Onion Knight