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For the ones who dont like the idea of Arya ×gedry relationship


The Exiled Septa

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9 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Yea, so that he can put the little lady in her place and remind her that she's a woman.

No, not necessarily. But GRRM does use "stealing" and "dangerous" and "strong" and alpha-male identification and "bear-maiden" song to pairings. GRRM does it with Ygritte and Jon, with Val and Jon, with Jaime and Brienne. And almost nobody interpretes that in a paternalistic way. So, why should we suddenly have to interprete it that way with Gendry and Arya. Meanwhile Gendry's accused as being too much of a wuss, because he doesn't want to hurt a girl. So, as long as it isn't Gendry a male character intended for Arya must be alpha? And only in Gendry's case we should regard it in a paternalistic way?  

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34 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

You're right, Lady Smallwood is admirable for all these things but I'm not sure Arya has taken them into consideration when forming opinion about her. Maybe subconsciously she did, I don't know, but I don't remember her thinking about these things.

 

29 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Pretty sure she did subconsciously. Arya admires the "swans" in the books - Lady Smallwood (a Swann) who talks her own mind, the courtesans at Braavos (especially the Black Pearl with her swan ship). And Arya's made to "dance" on her tippy toes like a swan by Syrio. Those are the women she admires and watches and studies more and more - women in control of their own sexuality.

Not necessarily even subconsciously. We are never privy to Arya's thoughts when she considers what it is she likes about Lady Smallwood. 

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Just now, sweetsunray said:

No, not necessarily. But GRRM does use "stealing" and "dangerous" and "strong" and alpha-male identification and "bear-maiden" song to pairings. GRRM does it with Ygritte and Jon, with Val and Jon, with Jaime and Brienne. And almost nobody interpretes that in a paternalistic way. So, why should we suddenly have to interprete it that way with Gendry and Arya. Meanwhile Gendry's accused as being too much of a wuss. So, as long as it isn't Gendry a male character intended for Arya must be alpha? And only in Gendry's case we should regard it in a paternalistic way?  

Because Arya is who she is, and these things matter to her.

And no, not so long as it isn't Gendry. The 'alpha' parallel in the human girl has a very unpleasent symbolism for me in all cases. That's the reason I hope the narrative of her sexulaity does not take that route. But the idea that this 'alpha' *must* for some reason, be Gendry and therefore both text and speculation be shoehorned in a way that a potential future romance fulfils those norms, and in order to do that prioritize the secondary character and downplay the primary, sorry, that's something that irks me. A lot.

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A Clash of Kings - Arya IX

Quiet as a shadow, she flitted across the middle bailey, around the Tower of Dread, and through the empty mews, where people said the spirits of dead falcons stirred the air with ghostly wings. She could go where she would. The garrison numbered no more than a hundred men, so small a troop that they were lost in Harrenhal. The Hall of a Hundred Hearths was closed off, along with many of the lesser buildings, even the Wailing Tower. Ser Amory Lorch resided in the castellan's chambers in Kingspyre, themselves as spacious as a lord's, and Arya and the other servants had moved to the cellars beneath him so they would be close at hand. While Lord Tywin had been in residence, there was always a man-at-arms wanting to know your business. But now there were only a hundred men left to guard a thousand doors, and no one seemed to know who should be where, or care much.

As she passed the armory, Arya heard the ring of a hammer. A deep orange glow shone through the high windows. She climbed to the roof and peeked down. Gendry was beating out a breastplate. When he worked, nothing existed for him but metal, bellows, fire. The hammer was like part of his arm. She watched the play of muscles in his chest and listened to the steel music he made. He's strong, she thought. As he took up the long-handled tongs to dip the breastplate into the quenching trough, Arya slithered through the window and leapt down to the floor beside him.

He did not seem surprised to see her. "You should be abed, girl." The breastplate hissed like a cat as he dipped it in the cold water. "What was all that noise?"

The ring of Gendry's hammer -- his 'steel music' -- calls irresistibly to Arya.

In response to his summons, the irreverent one jumps down to him like a tamed cat.  Fancy that!  Hammering home the analogy, ;) the breastplate which Gendry dips into the cold water hisses like a cat -- so that's figuratively Arya that Gendry has firmly in hand.  And we know Arya likes water...(besides, Ned would certainly agree her 'wolfsblood' could do with a bit of quenching!)

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A Clash of Kings - Arya V

The air was full of birds, crows mostly. From afar, they were no larger than flies as they wheeled and flapped above the thatched roofs. To the east, Gods Eye was a sheet of sun-hammered blue that filled half the world. Some days, as they made their slow way up the muddy shore (Gendry wanted no part of any roads, and even Hot Pie and Lommy saw the sense in that), Arya felt as though the lake were calling her. She wanted to leap into those placid blue waters, to feel clean again, to swim and splash and bask in the sun. But she dare not take off her clothes where the others could see, not even to wash them. At the end of the day she would often sit on a rock and dangle her feet in the cool water. She had finally thrown away her cracked and rotted shoes. Walking barefoot was hard at first, but the blisters had finally broken, the cuts had healed, and her soles had turned to leather. The mud was nice between her toes, and she liked to feel the earth underfoot when she walked.

Likewise, Arya feels the lake calling to her, compared to a 'sheet of sun-hammered blue' -- so there's your Gendry smith reference.  The 'song of the earth' sung by the lake -- analogous to the sweet 'steel music' Gendry makes -- is so irresistible, Arya feels like plunging into those placid blue waters (doesn't Gendry have blue eyes..?).  Is this her destiny?

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A Game of Thrones - Arya II

It was the third time he had called her "boy." "I'm a girl," Arya objected.

"Boy, girl," Syrio Forel said. "You are a sword, that is all." He clicked his teeth together. "Just so, that is the grip. You are not holding a battle-axe, you are holding a—"

"—needle," Arya finished for him, fiercely.

Arya is a sword -- and a special sword like Arya can only be 'reforged' by a special smith (one who knows the special spells songs he learnt at Tobho Mott's)!

I see the prospective Arya-Gendry marriage as the symbolic third forging of Lightbringer.  Whereas beforehand their fathers had failed disastrously in their two prior attempts to orchestrate Stark-Baratheon marriages (Lyanna-Robert, Sansa-Joffrey), this time they might finally get it right.

Or maybe there won't be such a happy ending -- and Arya will die.  There's foreshadowing for that as well!

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On 4/2/2017 at 4:14 PM, Valedina said:

So i was wondering about Aryas ending and im 80% sure(He is GRRM after all  nobody can be certain what he is planning)that she will end up married to Gedry.I thought that this scenario would please many fans and i was really confused when i realised that this wasnt the case.Many fans dont like this ending and i would like to know why ?

Please dont use the argument about Arya being very young.Im talking about the future where she will be at least 14 ( I think Dany was at the same age when she married Khal Drogo)

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Keep in mind that in the sixth book she says that her breast will grow in a year or two and later she seduces.... (i dont remember his name) so that she can kill him.And generally her character seems more mature and female.

And second pleasr  dont use the argument about Arya saying she will never marry.

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In the Egg and Dunk novellas there is a moment where Egg says something about not liking girls and wanting to become a knight of the kingsgaurd and never marry and we do  know that eventually  he falls in love with a blackwood??(im not sure)and he marries her.

So if not for these two reason why are you so against Arya×Gedry romance ?

SORRY FOR BAD ENGLISH its not my mother tongue :)

I think Arya will be that character that GRRM never sexualize. Arya has never been that character in the books and I just to see any evidence that she will become. Vengeance and revenge seem to be her only love. Even if she survives the to the end I don't seeing her suddenly saying "well I guess Ill get married and be a lady."    

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1 minute ago, ravenous reader said:

 

The ring of Gendry's hammer -- his 'steel music' -- calls irresistibly to Arya.

In response to his summons, the irreverent one jumps down to him like a tamed cat.  Fancy that!  Hammering home the analogy, ;) the breastplate which Gendry dips into the cold water hisses like a cat -- so that's figuratively Arya that Gendry has firmly in hand.  And we know Arya likes water...(besides, Ned would certainly agree her 'wolfsblood' could do with a bit of quenching!)

Likewise, Arya feels the lake calling to her, compared to a 'sheet of sun-hammered blue' -- so there's your Gendry smith reference.  The 'song of the earth' sung by the lake -- analogous to the sweet 'steel music' Gendry makes -- is so irresistible, Arya feels like plunging into those placid blue waters (doesn't Gendry have blue eyes..?).  Is this her destiny?

Arya is a sword -- and a special sword like Arya can only be 'reforged' by a special smith (one who knows the special spells songs he learnt at Tobho Mott's)!

I see the prospective Arya-Gendry marriage as the symbolic third forging of Lightbringer.  Whereas beforehand their fathers had failed disastrously in their two prior attempts to orchestrate Stark-Baratheon marriages (Lyanna-Robert, Sansa-Joffrey), this time they might finally get it right.

Or maybe there won't be such a happy ending -- and Arya will die.  There's foreshadowing for that as well!

Of course. The primary character is but a tool so that the secondary will shine. Suit yourself.

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5 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Of course. The primary character is but a tool so that the secondary will shine. Suit yourself.

No, Gendry is the blacksmith who burnishes the metal -- so he makes Arya shine, not the other way around!

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2 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Whatever.

Are you grumpy cat today -- where's your sense of humor?  :)

If it makes you feel better, there's unlikely to be a happy ending for Arya:

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A Dance with Dragons - Jaime I

"Is that why you killed all the Starks?"

"Not all," said Jaime. "Lord Eddard's daughters live. One has just been wed. The other …" Brienne, where are you? Have you found her? "… if the gods are good, she'll forget she was a Stark. She'll wed some burly blacksmith or fat-faced innkeep, fill his house with children, and never need to fear that some knight might come along to smash their heads against a wall."

"The gods are good," his hostage said, uncertainly.

But as GRRM has shown us in no uncertain terms, the gods are not generally 'good' (and nor is he...)!

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14 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Because Arya is who she is, and these things matter to her.

And no, not so long as it isn't Gendry. The 'alpha' parallel in the human girl has a very unpleasent symbolism for me in all cases. That's the reason I hope the narrative of her sexulaity does not take that route. But the idea that this 'alpha' *must* for some reason, be Gendry and therefore both text and speculation be shoehorned in a way that a potential future romance fulfils those norms, and in order to do that prioritize the secondary character and downplay the primary, sorry, that's something that irks me. A lot.

Arya wants an alpha right? Arya's the one who starts to challenge Gendry, and he initially doesn't want to because he thinks he might hurt Arry. After that, the challenge goes back and fort. Engaging in that challenge can actually be a sign that he doesn't treat her as a "girl". And GRRM can write the winning of the scuffle in a way that is not paternalistic at all. 

That he's strong, dangerous and able to meet a challenge matters to Arya. It's not "our norms" but Arya's.

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44 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

I am not contesting that she likes it, I am contesting that his strength and ability to cause harm are enough to get him on top if the scenario of a potential relationship follows the Atalanta approach.

But why would he had to be on top of the realtionship? That he likes strong men doesn't mean she is not strong or that she has to be submissive

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15 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Are you grumpy cat today -- where's your sense of humor?  :)

If it makes you feel better, there's unlikely to be a happy ending for Arya:

But as GRRM has shown us in no uncertain terms, the gods are not generally 'good' (and nor is he...)!

Oh sorry. Just meant to say that I'm just tired and can' t carry on the discussion. I had started to write something that required some effort, you see, "whatever" simply meant that I'm dropping it. Goodnight.

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2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

The ring of Gendry's hammer -- his 'steel music' -- calls irresistibly to Arya.

In response to his summons, the irreverent one jumps down to him like a tamed cat.  Fancy that!  Hammering home the analogy, ;) the breastplate which Gendry dips into the cold water hisses like a cat -- so that's figuratively Arya that Gendry has firmly in hand.  And we know Arya likes water...(besides, Ned would certainly agree her 'wolfsblood' could do with a bit of quenching!)

Likewise, Arya feels the lake calling to her, compared to a 'sheet of sun-hammered blue' -- so there's your Gendry smith reference.  The 'song of the earth' sung by the lake -- analogous to the sweet 'steel music' Gendry makes -- is so irresistible, Arya feels like plunging into those placid blue waters (doesn't Gendry have blue eyes..?).  Is this her destiny?

Arya is a sword -- and a special sword like Arya can only be 'reforged' by a special smith (one who knows the special spells songs he learnt at Tobho Mott's)!

I see the prospective Arya-Gendry marriage as the symbolic third forging of Lightbringer.  Whereas beforehand their fathers had failed disastrously in their two prior attempts to orchestrate Stark-Baratheon marriages (Lyanna-Robert, Sansa-Joffrey), this time they might finally get it right.

Or maybe there won't be such a happy ending -- and Arya will die.  There's foreshadowing for that as well!

Oh! I like your analogies! I had never read those passages in that way :)

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On 5/4/2017 at 7:33 PM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

@The Weirwoods Eyes  Just wanted to know I've been enjoying reading your posts!  

I don't really understand people seeing Arya making a very conformist, class-conscious match later in life.  Arya from the first book shows herself to be more at ease with common people than anyone else of her own social class.  She's very anti class boundaries and does not give a whit for crossing those lines.  She has enormous empathy for them and she defends them when she sees unfairness.  She also insists to her father that "the woman is important too."  Her ability to make connections with just about anyone is a hallmark of her personality and that doesn't really change throughout her arc.  I can't see her radically changing or submitting to a cold, traditional marriage in the end.  

I think you were right to point out the parallels between Arya and Sansa in their sexual and romantic development.  Romance is not just a Sansa thing and we shouldn't take Arya's balking at the traditional romantic things to mean she doesn't have a soft, romantic streak.  It just presents itself differently than her sister.  Arya is not just a girl that loves swords and horseback riding.  She's also a girl (from GoT) that loves flowers.  She loves them so much she doesn't mind getting dirty, bruised, or covered in a rash to collect them and give them to her father.  If that doesn't scream being a "forest lass" from the song I don't know what is.  I do think the story mostly points to a future romance with Gendry (how that turns out, I don't know) as someone she chooses for herself and someone who likes her just as she is, dirt and all.  He already does.  I think he is hanging around the orphanage because he's hoping eventually Arya will turn up there.  He's literally waiting at a crossroad.            

I think George is deconstructing the trope of women as prizes and marriage pawns, not romance itself.  He's just not into the juvenile portrayals of love and sex that tend to dominate fantasy.  He's doing that by not shying away from the process of transitioning from childhood to womanhood in both sisters.  Both of them are getting glimpses of things they are attracted to and neither of those things are what society says a highborn lady should want.  They are both rebelling against tradition in their own ways.          

 Well said!!!!

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13 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

There would be some "challenge" in the way of the Bear song. A "fight" challenge has been repeatedly done phsyically and verbally between Arya and Gendry from the second chapter they're on the road together. Just like we have a sword fight between Jaime and Brienne, Sandor's dagger at Sansa's throat, or Jon's drawn sword and ordering Val to stay inside the tent and "capture" her.

 
 

I kinda agree and disagree Sweetsunray. 

On the one hand, I agree that GRRM is very fond of using the sex/danger analogy. I completely concur that he does this and that some fights in books are analogous to sexuality. He has several romantic pairings get into scraps. But I really don't think he as an author is interested in holding up the Atalanta myth idea of masculinity and femininity and how a relationship should be ordered in order to work.  

Their relationship does, as you point out have sparring right from the off, verbal sparring and occasionally physical.  But Gendry does not come out as the winner on these occasions. And I don't think this is indicative of a fundamental incompatibility. And I think the faux wrestle tickling fight is their version of Brienne & Jaime's actual fight. The two are too young to bring too overt a sexual theme into things. So we get a childish fight, but one which many of us can instantly recognise as a form of flirting, but which does not cross over into weird territory by being inappropriately sexual in its overtones.  

 Whereas Jaime & Brienne do have overt sexual undertones in their fight, and their fight involves actual blades, with all their phallic symbolism and the blood on the maiden's thigh imagery. But crucially Brienne bests Jaime and holds his head under the water. this is not an author who writes about men and woman having some natural hierarchy with men having to be on top.   

When Sandor pulls his dagger on Sansa, she "beats" him by singing the mother's song instead of a love song. He goes away defeated by her. It's not over because later she begins to have her sexual awakening, and he is the focus of it. But at that junction, she was not ready for what he wanted and he walked away. But what is developing now on her part is something which she herself is in charge of. She's exploring her own sexuality on her own terms. Not being forced into it by society or a man who doesn't care about her feelings on the matter. It's a slow process and she is going at her own pace. 

Whereas with Jon & Ygritte; when he holds his dagger to her throat he asks her if she yields, and she replies, I yield. But I would hardly say that he goes on to be the dominant force in their relationship. So this notion that having to best the other or the man having to best the woman is not true in these books at all.

 The fighting analogies are not about who leads in the relationship. Val stays in the tent when Jon draws his sword but again I would not say that she is subordinate at all in their relationship nor would be if and when it turns sexual. In fact, they have a fight of words where she practically threatens to chop his cock off. Again this is flirting, she's issuing a challenge. But if he did take up her invitation of stealing into her bed, I suspect his welcome would be a mouth or caress not a knife. The mistake people seem to make is in thinking that acceptance of a sexual partner by a woman is somehow submission.  

 

<Interestingly and as an aside from this topic. Prior to Jon going down and "capturing" Val he had been spying on her from atop the wall. Watching her through a Myrish glass. Bringing far sight and one-eyed Odin imagery into things. And he watched her milking a goat, a domesticity scene, indicating domestic union, and the goat and its milk bring in Heiðrún imagery, who is the goat in Norse mythology whose teats yield the mead served in Valhalla and that mead is served by the Valkyries.> 

a strong theme in the books is women realising they can have that union, and not just have to submit to a partner they do not desire because their families have decided she should. Wildling women of course already know this mostly. So the interactions our characters have with them are by their nature less in line with this stupid notion of men "taking" women, less doing to and more doing with.  Take Gilly she basically leaps on Sam and is absolutely euphoric in having the kind of autonomy in regards to sex which she was aware other wildling women were having. And which she was denied. 

There does not need to be this silly idea of men conquering women. It just plays into the fallacy that there is some form of natural order where women desire to be dominated or are unable to be strong and focussed so need a man to be her leader. 

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12 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

But why would he had to be on top of the realtionship? That he likes strong men doesn't mean she is not strong or that she has to be submissive

He doesn't. But that's what the "alpha Gendry" theory implies (to which I very, very, very strongly disagree).

 

(I'd have some more to add to the topic, but I'll be mostly off for the next month, so maybe in another thread...)

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59 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

 

 

I kinda agree and disagree Sweetsunray. 

On the one hand, I agree that GRRM is very fond of using the sex/danger analogy. I completely concur that he does this and that some fights in books are analogous to sexuality. He has several romantic pairings get into scraps. But I really don't think he as an author is interested in holding up the Atalanta myth idea of masculinity and femininity and how a relationship should be ordered in order to work.  

Their relationship does, as you point out have sparring right from the off, verbal sparring and occasionally physical.  But Gendry does not come out as the winner on these occasions. And I don't think this is indicative of a fundamental incompatibility. And I think the faux wrestle tickling fight is their version of Brienne & Jaime's actual fight. The two are too young to bring too overt a sexual theme into things. So we get a childish fight, but one which many of us can instantly recognise as a form of flirting, but which does not cross over into weird territory by being inappropriately sexual in its overtones.  

 Whereas Jaime & Brienne do have overt sexual undertones in their fight, and their fight involves actual blades, with all their phallic symbolism and the blood on the maiden's thigh imagery. But crucially Brienne bests Jaime and holds his head under the water. this is not an author who writes about men and woman having some natural hierarchy with men having to be on top.   

When Sandor pulls his dagger on Sansa, she "beats" him by singing the mother's song instead of a love song. He goes away defeated by her. It's not over because later she begins to have her sexual awakening, and he is the focus of it. But at that junction, she was not ready for what he wanted and he walked away. But what is developing now on her part is something which she herself is in charge of. She's exploring her own sexuality on her own terms. Not being forced into it by society or a man who doesn't care about her feelings on the matter. It's a slow process and she is going at her own pace. 

Whereas with Jon & Ygritte; when he holds his dagger to her throat he asks her if she yields, and she replies, I yield. But I would hardly say that he goes on to be the dominant force in their relationship. So this notion that having to best the other or the man having to best the woman is not true in these books at all.

 The fighting analogies are not about who leads in the relationship. Val stays in the tent when Jon draws his sword but again I would not say that she is subordinate at all in their relationship nor would be if and when it turns sexual. In fact, they have a fight of words where she practically threatens to chop his cock off. Again this is flirting, she's issuing a challenge. But if he did take up her invitation of stealing into her bed, I suspect his welcome would be a mouth or caress not a knife. The mistake people seem to make is in thinking that acceptance of a sexual partner by a woman is somehow submission.  

 

<Interestingly and as an aside from this topic. Prior to Jon going down and "capturing" Val he had been spying on her from atop the wall. Watching her through a Myrish glass. Bringing far sight and one-eyed Odin imagery into things. And he watched her milking a goat, a domesticity scene, indicating domestic union, and the goat and its milk bring in Heiðrún imagery, who is the goat in Norse mythology whose teats yield the mead served in Valhalla and that mead is served by the Valkyries.> 

a strong theme in the books is women realising they can have that union, and not just have to submit to a partner they do not desire because their families have decided she should. Wildling women of course already know this mostly. So the interactions our characters have with them are by their nature less in line with this stupid notion of men "taking" women, less doing to and more doing with.  Take Gilly she basically leaps on Sam and is absolutely euphoric in having the kind of autonomy in regards to sex which she was aware other wildling women were having. And which she was denied. 

There does not need to be this silly idea of men conquering women. It just plays into the fallacy that there is some form of natural order where women desire to be dominated or are unable to be strong and focussed so need a man to be her leader. 

Well, I don't disagree with any of what you say. It's never about dominion at all imo. In part, all these women hold their own in the fights or captivate the man/boy. When I think of the bear-maiden fighting and flirting and challenging and "besting" it's nothing to do with one "winning" over the other, but the thrill of the challenge itself. All the "stealing" and the "fighting" is often interpreted as "male dominion" and "female submissin" in discussions by readers, but the text shows somethign entirely different, that was my point from the very start.

Imo Gendry doesn't need to win or dominate Arya in any fight. I think all he needs to do is steal/sneak a kiss in to make her aware of his attraction to her (instead of conquering... like a kiss on the cheek), even if she'd give him a beating for it as first response. All he ever needs to show is that he's willing to fight for and with her and can hold his own and "why" that is, but not "beat" her. At that point she's free to put 2 and 2 together and make up her own mind and make the terms if she's willing.

Back to the the alpha-roles; again it is not about the alpha-male subduing the alpha-female, but finding each other equals, or combined a balanced mix. If the alpha female has to continually fight of male rivals to her chosen partner, then that's not a partnership anymore, especially if she were to have a nest of pups. She might as well be on her own then. If the alpha male can hold his own as well as her, then she doesn't have to fight for two anymore, but can actually be a team. That's how I take Ygritte's words about stealing. 

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