For the ones who dont like the idea of Arya ×gedry relationship

[Orphalesion]

I find it interesting that there's a lot of discussion about whether Gendry is good/clever enough for Arya, about how he and Jon will duel for her hand (whut? When did this turn into a 19th century bodice ripper?) and whether Arya would even want Gendry by the end of the story.

What about Gendry's POV? Who says he would want Arya by the end of the story? Maybe he decides he can do better than a large angry squirrel a death-assassin who by now is probably not very good at expression warm, positive emotions. 

[ShadowCat Rivers]

22 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

I find it interesting that there's a lot of discussion about whether Gendry is good/clever enough for Arya, about how he and Jon will duel for her hand (whut? When did this turn into a 19th century bodice ripper?) and whether Arya would even want Gendry by the end of the story.

What about Gendry's POV? Who says he would want Arya by the end of the story? Maybe he decides he can do better than a large angry squirrel a death-assassin who by now is probably not very good at expression warm, positive emotions. 

That's because secondary charactes' role is to serve the arc of the mains they're tagged along. If the main character needs to experience rejection in order to move along her arc, then that's what he will do. But what you'll get to read about is how she feels about it, so brace yourself in either case, you'll have to endure her POV for another couple of books.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

@sweetsunray

Sorry if I misunderstood you. 

 

[sweetsunray]

45 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

@sweetsunray

Sorry if I misunderstood you. 

 

No, that's ok. It's hard to put it into words at times and I used "winning" in a manner that could be misunderstood, especially because it's already so often misunderstood by many in "domination" terms, and your post elaborated on the several examples. 

I personally like the Ygritte-Jon example very much. He manages to make her surrender because he has a knife at her throat. But then he can't actually come to kill her and he lets her go, and she's the reason he's hunted down, and she's the one who takes the sexual initiative. Yet, she still considers herself "stolen" and in later conversations about "stealing" reveals she's pretty demanding on that department.

The Sansa-Sandor example is entirely different, but still works. She basically disarms (without emasculating him) him by her song.

And my point, like you, is that there are so many ways George can vary this challenge theme between a man and a woman, or boy and girl. There's no denying that Arya acquires some tricks up her sleeve in the HoBaW though she does not actually learn sword fighting anymore. Though she'd probably got very good with a stick. And I expect her to spend some time serving for a courtesan swan, like the Black Pearl, not to have sex with a guy, but to get her in touch with the more feminine part of herself, to learn how she can integrate that unavoidable development with the rest of her identity. Likewise I can see Brienne starting to train Gendry (no sexual subtext). His sword was nearly finished in aFfC. The combination can lead to various situations in a meet-up, where I would not underestimate Gendry, nor Arya. I think that the important point of such a challenge and fight is that Gendry doesn't disappoint.

That seems overall how George writes these pairings: not as the guy technically winning over the female character (POV or secondary), but having a moment where he has the upper hand that he does not hold on to, let alone abuse, and that the boys and men did not disappoint during that physical altercation.

[The Exiled Septa]

You know what really bothers me in the end? Its not if Arya will end up married with Gendry or not. Most of us agree that something indeed will happen between those two.If that happens but they dont end up together it will be another failed stark/baratheon relationship after Robert and Lyanna,Joffrey(???) and Sansa.Now you will tell me and what of it??

well generally speaking  there is absolutely  nothing weird in that.But for some stupid reason my head cant accept it very easily.For me it just seems a little bit tiring and boring if another stark/baratheon relationship fails.(unless one or both of them dyes in the end).I mean come on why would George do that for a third time in a row?so he can prove to as that starks cant mix with the baratheons?

well scratch that dont answer me you guys are clever and im sure you could find like 1.000 reasons why he woud do that besides as i said i dont have any logical proof to support my statement.It has just stuck in my head and  wont leave me alone..... i had to say it.

 

[Meera of Tarth]

5 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

No, that's ok. It's hard to put it into words at times and I used "winning" in a manner that could be misunderstood, especially because it's already so often misunderstood by many in "domination" terms, and your post elaborated on the several examples. 

I personally like the Ygritte-Jon example very much. He manages to make her surrender because he has a knife at her throat. But then he can't actually come to kill her and he lets her go, and she's the reason he's hunted down, and she's the one who takes the sexual initiative. Yet, she still considers herself "stolen" and in later conversations about "stealing" reveals she's pretty demanding on that department.

The Sansa-Sandor example is entirely different, but still works. She basically disarms (without emasculating him) him by her song.

And my point, like you, is that there are so many ways George can vary this challenge theme between a man and a woman, or boy and girl. There's no denying that Arya acquires some tricks up her sleeve in the HoBaW though she does not actually learn sword fighting anymore. Though she'd probably got very good with a stick. And I expect her to spend some time serving for a courtesan swan, like the Black Pearl, not to have sex with a guy, but to get her in touch with the more feminine part of herself, to learn how she can integrate that unavoidable development with the rest of her identity. Likewise I can see Brienne starting to train Gendry (no sexual subtext). His sword was nearly finished in aFfC. The combination can lead to various situations in a meet-up, where I would not underestimate Gendry, nor Arya. I think that the important point of such a challenge and fight is that Gendry doesn't disappoint.

That seems overall how George writes these pairings: not as the guy technically winning over the female character (POV or secondary), but having a moment where he has the upper hand that he does not hold on to, let alone abuse, and that the boys and men did not disappoint during that physical altercation.

I think that Brienne teaching Gendry fighting skills is very likely if they remain in the same places together and she survives the threats of LSH.

[Meera of Tarth]

12 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

 

Their relationship does, as you point out have sparring right from the off, verbal sparring and occasionally physical.  But Gendry does not come out as the winner on these occasions. And I don't think this is indicative of a fundamental incompatibility. And I think the faux wrestle tickling fight is their version of Brienne & Jaime's actual fight. The two are too young to bring too overt a sexual theme into things. So we get a childish fight, but one which many of us can instantly recognise as a form of flirting, but which does not cross over into weird territory by being inappropriately sexual in its overtones.  

 

<Interestingly and as an aside from this topic. Prior to Jon going down and "capturing" Val he had been spying on her from atop the wall. Watching her through a Myrish glass. Bringing far sight and one-eyed Odin imagery into things. And he watched her milking a goat, a domesticity scene, indicating domestic union, and the goat and its milk bring in Heiðrún imagery, who is the goat in Norse mythology whose teats yield the mead served in Valhalla and that mead is served by the Valkyries.> 

a strong theme in the books is women realising they can have that union, and not just have to submit to a partner they do not desire because their families have decided she should. Wildling women of course already know this mostly. So the interactions our characters have with them are by their nature less in line with this stupid notion of men "taking" women, less doing to and more doing with.  Take Gilly she basically leaps on Sam and is absolutely euphoric in having the kind of autonomy in regards to sex which she was aware other wildling women were having. And which she was denied. 

There does not need to be this silly idea of men conquering women. It just plays into the fallacy that there is some form of natural order where women desire to be dominated or are unable to be strong and focussed so need a man to be her leader. 

Yes, I very much agree with that. 

[The Fattest Leech]

For the ones that don't think a direwolf can mate with a grey wolf cousin (just a fun bit)

Question: Can direwolves and regular wolves mate and breed viable offspring?

GRRM: Presumably. Wolves and dogs can interbreed, after all. So can chihuahuas and Great Danes.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1240

[crowcrow]

On April 3, 2017 at 9:06 AM, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Jon and Gendry will meet at the trident and duel for her hand, then she'll turn the winner down to assassinate more people.

The best thing i've read so far 

[crowcrow]

On April 4, 2017 at 8:24 AM, Lord Wraith said:

Welcome and just beware the Jon/Arya shippers. They are a little vociferous on these forums.

way to go stereotyping a group of people :/

[Lord Wraith]

7 hours ago, RevaM said:

way to go stereotyping a group of people :/

Well they are passionate about their ship nothing wrong with that but just giving OP a warning.

[crowcrow]

On April 8, 2017 at 2:52 AM, Valedina said:

You know what really bothers me in the end? Its not if Arya will end up married with Gendry or not. Most of us agree that something indeed will happen between those two.If that happens but they dont end up together it will be another failed stark/baratheon relationship after Robert and Lyanna,Joffrey(???) and Sansa.Now you will tell me and what of it??

well generally speaking  there is absolutely  nothing weird in that.But for some stupid reason my head cant accept it very easily.For me it just seems a little bit tiring and boring if another stark/baratheon relationship fails.(unless one or both of them dyes in the end).I mean come on why would George do that for a third time in a row?so he can prove to as that starks cant mix with the baratheons?

well scratch that dont answer me you guys are clever and im sure you could find like 1.000 reasons why he woud do that besides as i said i dont have any logical proof to support my statement.It has just stuck in my head and  wont leave me alone..... i had to say it.

 

Well the thing is that...Lyanna never loved Robert. Not a single bit. And Joffrey is not even a Baratheon so he doesn't count at all. So that's just for the start.

And yeah I get the temptation, Im the same with Jon/Arya--->Lyanna/Rhaegar (bc Arya looks and acts like Lyanna while Jon has Rhaegar's personality and etc.) But since you're really uncomfortable with Jon/Arya being a thing, Im not going to bother with starting this here too. (I know you said not to answer you, so yeah sorry just wanted to point this out ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)

 

[The Exiled Septa]

6 hours ago, RevaM said:

Well the thing is that...Lyanna never loved Robert. Not a single bit. And Joffrey is not even a Baratheon so he doesn't count at all. So that's just for the start.

And yeah I get the temptation, Im the same with Jon/Arya--->Lyanna/Rhaegar (bc Arya looks and acts like Lyanna while Jon has Rhaegar's personality and etc.) But since you're really uncomfortable with Jon/Arya being a thing, Im not going to bother with starting this here too. (I know you said not to answer you, so yeah sorry just wanted to point this out ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)

 

No its ok ,im glad you answered!♥