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For the ones who dont like the idea of Arya ×gedry relationship


The Exiled Septa

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21 hours ago, blacken said:

Not just replying to you but I couldn't be bothered to quote everyone :D

Honestly, part of my resistance to this narrative comes from having it shoved down my throat as a tomboy and a lesbian and as someone who generally thinks romance is shoehorned in to too many stories, it's entirely personal, but at least I recognize that my reading consists of what I bring to the table in addition to the text. It would be nice if other people acknowledged their own biases too. I'm not necessarily referring to you guys but a lot of fandom seem to just ignore that. YMMV is basically what I'm saying. Until its textual, I will happily ignore it.

 

Anyway I feel like my first point is the most relevant, which is that them getting together later on is too neat, contrived and fairytale for GRRM!

 

I know this wasn't exactly directed at me. But I just wanted to say that it is very unusual to see anyone in these forums being so honest about the motivations behind their interpretation of the story. I wanted to let you know that I admire that.

 One of the main reasons I am open to seeing the romance in ASOIAF is the fact that a lot of the conflict which happens when discussing the books comes from people trying to refute that this story about armies, and swords, and badass characters, And politics, and manly-manly-ness;) could not possibly have any romance in it! 

Several of us created a thread a few years back to counter this argument that there are no love stories in ASOIAF called Re-Thinking Romance. There are two threads and they are in the re-read section if you ever fancy reading them.  These threads explored the romantic relationships in the series. The good the bad and the ugly. 

GRRM has himself said he is a romantic, and he has some pretty glowing words for romance as a genre in fiction and the fact it is much maligned and undervalued. So it stands to reason that there are indeed love stories woven through his work, he has also said he writes about the human heart in conflict. And several of the romances in the books pick up on this theme. Aemon's words are apt here. That love is the death of duty.  

 

 

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On 05/04/2017 at 0:58 PM, ShadowCat Rivers said:

I think there might be two reasons.

One, that Gendry himself, the character, seems to feel uncomfortable in such a position wrt Arya, mainly due to his social status, but still. It's notable that when he finds out who she is, there's a change of attitude from his part of the sort "a highborn lady shouldn't..." for things that apparently were just fine before (from funny stuff like pissing in front of her to more serious things). Readers often adopt the character's point of view, especially given that in their context it is the 'realistic' scenario.

Second, it might be the very uncomfortable yet not easily dismissable parallel that can be drawn with Nymeria's attitude, its significance in the behavioural model of wolf pack dynamics and its mythological association to Atalanta's myth, which suggest that there's a strong element of competition (for dominance) in a relationship, which must conclude in a certain way in order to pass to the next level, which is to create a family. In the books, the wildling custom of stealing the bride alludes to this myth. I hope, for apparent reasons, that GRRM does not plan too take that route with Arya.

 

ETA

Btw, Atalanta's myth (but with a different outcome) was also invoked in Brienne's story, where she successfully avoided marriage to the old idiot who threatened to "correct" her, by shaming him in the yard.

 

So the class thing? Do you think that because Gendry I more conscious of her as a "lady" now and thus her femaleness and the different ways the two sex's are perceived and expected to behave are more prominent in his mind now that he is aware that she is high born? 

And thus the reader is expecting more "ladylike" behaviour from Arya as a result? 

Hmm, The Atalanta myth is something which plays very much into the thing which I think is likely the reason. But I was hoping someone would give me an honest answer about what they think is the reason behind their feelings that a relationship is not possible unless Gendry can take a dominant role. I guess the fact that no one who has been suggesting this was brave enough to say why kinda answers it for me though. 

Bit depressing though that people still think, even if it is subconscious sometimes that in order to have a successful relationship the male partner needs to be "the leader".

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21 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

@The Weirwoods Eyes  Just wanted to know I've been enjoying reading your posts!  

I don't really understand people seeing Arya making a very conformist, class-conscious match later in life.  Arya from the first book shows herself to be more at ease with common people than anyone else of her own social class.  She's very anti class boundaries and does not give a whit for crossing those lines.  She has enormous empathy for them and she defends them when she sees unfairness.  She also insists to her father that "the woman is important too."  Her ability to make connections with just about anyone is a hallmark of her personality and that doesn't really change throughout her arc.  I can't see her radically changing or submitting to a cold, traditional marriage in the end.  

I think you were right to point out the parallels between Arya and Sansa in their sexual and romantic development.  Romance is not just a Sansa thing and we shouldn't take Arya's balking at the traditional romantic things to mean she doesn't have a soft, romantic streak.  It just presents itself differently than her sister.  Arya is not just a girl that loves swords and horseback riding.  She's also a girl (from GoT) that loves flowers.  She loves them so much she doesn't mind getting dirty, bruised, or covered in a rash to collect them and give them to her father.  If that doesn't scream being a "forest lass" from the song I don't know what is.  I do think the story mostly points to a future romance with Gendry (how that turns out, I don't know) as someone she chooses for herself and someone who likes her just as she is, dirt and all.  He already does.  I think he is hanging around the orphanage because he's hoping eventually Arya will turn up there.  He's literally waiting at a crossroad.            

I think George is deconstructing the trope of women as prizes and marriage pawns, not romance itself.  He's just not into the juvenile portrayals of love and sex that tend to dominate fantasy.  He's doing that by not shying away from the process of transitioning from childhood to womanhood in both sisters.  Both of them are getting glimpses of things they are attracted to and neither of those things are what society says a highborn lady should want.  They are both rebelling against tradition in their own ways.          

 

Thank you. 

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40 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

So the class thing? Do you think that because Gendry I more conscious of her as a "lady" now and thus her femaleness and the different ways the two sex's are perceived and expected to behave are more prominent in his mind now that he is aware that she is high born? 

And thus the reader is expecting more "ladylike" behaviour from Arya as a result? 

Yes, exactly. And also that a lot is derived from the character's (and by reflection, to readers that adopt his feelings as theirs) need to compensate for what he perceives as inferiority. As inferiority is by definition comparative, the character has to equal or even outclass the cause of his uncomfortable feelings -ie Arya- in other areas as a means of compensation. And there's where it becomes competitive.

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23 hours ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

I disagree with both bolded claims.

First, she might think of Tommen as a child (that he is), as someone who knows less of life's realities than her, yes, because it's true after all, but to not respect him, because of what, living more of a normal child's life (well not exactly normal life, but normal comparatively to hers)? I don't think she's that shallow, no. I would expect her to have feelings similar to Sansa's wrt Margaery's cousins, "pity him, envy him". (ETA - she thinks "I was nine" about her first kill when Ned Dayne explains that he didn't kill anyone in the battle that he participated, as he is "only twelve", but we do not see her disrespect him for it or think less of him - she propably thinks less of herself and of what her parents would think of her...)

Second, where the hell does this come from? Jon was just as sheltered as Robb and it showed painfully at his first experiences at the Wall. The only thing that differenciated them in their upbringing was that Robb might feel the entitlement of the heir (still pretty grounded, I'd say) while Jon was well aware of his bastard status (though he was not aware of his privilege). No,it were other things that brought them together, like their common feeling of being outcast and, simply, the chemistry one may have with some person instead of another.

I do not think Arya would respect someone like Tommen if she were to meet up with him or perhaps become betrothed to him.  In a sense, Arya is a little stuck up, she believes people earn respect through their deeds and not just because of who they are and she is not easily impressed.  So in her eyes, "what has he done to earn my respect", is the important thing.  Think of how she treated Joffrey even before the Trident.   

As for Jon, yes, their common feeling of being an outcast probably had a lot to do with their bond.  Think of it this way, Jon probably realized that Arya felt like he did since she could never please Cat and was always compared to her.  Jon would never please Cat and in a sense was always competing with Rob, as boys would always do, but because he knew Rob was entitled, he probably worked harder or at least that's what a 7-8 year old girl may have seen.

Which brings us back to the original point, I could definitely see Arya with Gendry, in part because his quiet, insecure, brooding manner probably reminds her of Jon.  

I could also see her with Edric Dayne, but I see a reunion with Gendry before Edric.

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7 minutes ago, Chris Mormont said:

I do not think Arya would respect someone like Tommen if she were to meet up with him or perhaps become betrothed to him.  In a sense, Arya is a little stuck up, she believes people earn respect through their deeds and not just because of who they are and she is not easily impressed.  So in her eyes, "what has he done to earn my respect", is the important thing.  Think of how she treated Joffrey even before the Trident.   

As for Jon, yes, their common feeling of being an outcast probably had a lot to do with their bond.  Think of it this way, Jon probably realized that Arya felt like he did since she could never please Cat and was always compared to her.  Jon would never please Cat and in a sense was always competing with Rob, as boys would always do, but because he knew Rob was entitled, he probably worked harder or at least that's what a 7-8 year old girl may have seen.

Which brings us back to the original point, I could definitely see Arya with Gendry, in part because his quiet, insecure, brooding manner probably reminds her of Jon.  

I could also see her with Edric Dayne, but I see a reunion with Gendry before Edric.

But Arya respects Lady Smallwood for no special feat but being nice to her... so while I agree that she does not award respect for things like family name, it's not like people need to achieve something to gain it. I think she would like Tommen if she ever had the chance to really meet him. No, she wouldn't like to be betrothed with him. Why? Because it would have been someone else's choice, not hers.

I still don't see where your idea about Arya's perception of Jon/Robb dynamic comes from. Also she loves and admires Robb very much: "I will be as strong as Robb" is what she promises to vision-Ned, remember?

 

Anyways, about Gendry I can only see it happen if his character growth is such that he will chose not to challenge her, but be supportive of her instead. He will have to cut the crap about what a highborn girl should or shouldn't do, the girl would be looking for a lover, not for a septa :)

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37 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Anyways, about Gendry I can only see it happen if his character growth is such that he will chose not to challenge her,

There would be some "challenge" in the way of the Bear song. A "fight" challenge has been repeatedly done phsyically and verbally between Arya and Gendry from the second chapter they're on the road together. Just like we have a sword fight between Jaime and Brienne, Sandor's dagger at Sansa's throat, or Jon's drawn sword and ordering Val to stay inside the tent and "capture" her.

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19 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

There would be some "challenge" in the way of the Bear song. A "fight" challenge has been repeatedly done phsyically and verbally between Arya and Gendry from the second chapter they're on the road together. Just like we have a sword fight between Jaime and Brienne, Sandor's dagger at Sansa's throat, or Jon's drawn sword and ordering Val to stay inside the tent and "capture" her.

In that case, he does not stand a chance. He'd be eaten for breakfast. Unless she lets him "win" in order to boost his pride like smart women should do, as my grandma would say. But so out of character for Arya, and so very unpleasant for my personal taste, since we are talking about why people do not like the idea...

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6 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

In that case, he does not stand a chance. He'd be eaten for breakfast. Unless she lets him "win" in order to boost his pride like smart women should do, as my grandma would say. But so out of character for Arya, and so very unpleasant for my personal taste, since we are talking about why people do not like the idea...

I actually disagree that he'll be eaten for breakfast. Initially she wins verbally to him, but that changes. He loses in the forge tickle fight. But it seems to me he's set up to learn. It's not that Arya would want him to win it. It's that she wouldn't want to actually kill him, and all he may end up wanting to do is kiss her.

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7 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I actually disagree that he'll be eaten for breakfast. Initially she wins verbally to him, but that changes. He loses in the forge tickle fight. But it seems to me he's set up to learn. It's not that Arya would want him to win it. It's that she wouldn't want to actually kill him, and all he may end up wanting to do is kiss her.

Unless you're talking about role playing (like Asha's - which is not my cup of tea but OK, I don't mind it) then not likely nor likable at all, IMO.

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1 hour ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

But Arya respects Lady Smallwood for no special feat but being nice to her...

And for taking her life into her own hands by choosing who she sleeps with and which side of the conflict she supports.

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2 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Unless you're talking about role playing (like Asha's - which is not my cup of tea but OK, I don't mind it) then not likely nor likable at all, IMO.

He is "strong" and Arya thinks of him as "dangerous" already long before he is actually.

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1 minute ago, Horse of Kent said:

And for taking her life into her own hands by choosing who she sleeps with and which side of the conflict she supports.

You're right, Lady Smallwood is admirable for all these things but I'm not sure Arya has taken them into consideration when forming opinion about her. Maybe subconsciously she did, I don't know, but I don't remember her thinking about these things.

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8 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

He is "strong" and Arya thinks of him as "dangerous" already long before he is actually.

Strong, he is. Nobody is taking that away from him. She thinks (more like she hopes, actually) that he looks dangerous when considering their chances to be left alone. But, neither is important in what would be the outcome of him challenging her. And I still see nothing to like in this scenario. But to each, their own.

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1 minute ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

You're right, Lady Smallwood is admirable for all these things but I'm not sure Arya has taken them into consideration when forming opinion about her. Maybe subconsciously she did, I don't know, but I don't remember her thinking about these things.

Pretty sure she did subconsciously. Arya admires the "swans" in the books - Lady Smallwood (a Swann) who talks her own mind, the courtesans at Braavos (especially the Black Pearl with her swan ship). And Arya's made to "dance" on her tippy toes like a swan by Syrio. Those are the women she admires and watches and studies more and more - women in control of their own sexuality.

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2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Pretty sure she did subconsciously. Arya admires the "swans" in the books - Lady Smallwood (a Swann) who talks her own mind, the courtesans at Braavos (especially the Black Pearl with her swan ship). And Arya's made to "dance" on her tippy toes like a swan by Syrio. Those are the women she admires and watches and studies more and more - women in control of their own sexuality.

Here I can agree :), it is in character for Arya to admire such things.

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1 minute ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Strong, he is. Nobody is taking that away from him. She thinks (more like she hopes, actually) that he looks dangerous when considering their chances to be left alone. But, neither is important in what would be the outcome of him challenging her. And I still see nothing to like in this scenario.

"dangerous" is a word that GRRM uses romantically.

And let's not forget that Brienne takes an interest in him. I wouldn't be surprised if she starts teaching him.

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12 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Strong, he is. Nobody is taking that away from him. She thinks (more like she hopes, actually) that he looks dangerous when considering their chances to be left alone. But, neither is important in what would be the outcome of him challenging her. And I still see nothing to like in this scenario.

I think she actually likes him being strong and dangerous, meaning she is attracted to strong men. She says he is strong many times in her narrative, I think she likes it.

10 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

"dangerous" is a word that GRRM uses romantically.

And let's not forget that Brienne takes an interest in him. I wouldn't be surprised if she starts teaching him.

Yes, this is used many times with other "pairings". Must mean something?

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Just now, sweetsunray said:

"dangerous" is a word that GRRM uses romantically.

And let's not forget that Brienne takes an interest in him. I wouldn't be surprised if she starts teaching him.

Yea, so that he can put the little lady in her place and remind her that she's a woman.

Look, I don't think this is happening. If he takes the challenge approach, then he falls under the "small grey cousin" category. His chance is to appeal to the girl, as a boy, not to the wolf, as an "alpha". She's not going to spare him if he seriously means to use his strength to subjugate her. That would be entirely off Arya's characterization, and for what?

But, (since I am not writing these books) if it does happen like that, I personally find it distasteful. Even if it comes to pass, I don't have to like everything the author serves me, after all.

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2 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I think she actually likes him being strong and dangerous, meaning she is attracted to strong men. She says he is strong many times in her narrative, I think she likes it.

I am not contesting that she likes it, I am contesting that his strength and ability to cause harm are enough to get him on top if the scenario of a potential relationship follows the Atalanta approach.

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