Sansas ending

[Makk]

On 4/4/2017 at 5:21 PM, Good Guy Garlan said:

I agree with you that she will get rid of Littlefinger, so he won't have a say in that. I also think Varys hired the Mad Mouse to report to him personally, so there's that link between Sansa and Team Aegon. 

Also, it's just a matter of time before word of Dany's alleged "death" at the Pit reaches Jon Connington, in which case he'll consider another bride for Aegon. It would be super ironic if once again a Stark girl came out of nowhere to steal a Targaryen prince away from a Martell woman. 

Yep, it's a good point about Shadrich, I hadn't really considered that and he's obviously been included in the story for something. I still don't quite see what's in it for Aegon though, her road to power lies through the Vale and either Harry or Sweet Robin. Without them she doesn't bring anything to Aegon that he needs right now. You could argue that after the war her possible claim to the North has some value, but that is well down the track.

[winter daughter]

8 hours ago, Newstar said:

As Sansa (presumably) grows in power and influence in ASOIAF under Littlefinger, and as the Starks make their long-awaited comeback, and as ADOS draws closer and closer, the harder and harder GRRM is going to have to work to keep her from affecting or changing his ending, which means that he may need to take her off the board to prevent her from doing that, either by killing her or removing her from power and influence.

He is the one who has given her power and influence in the first place... so I think he has a good reason for it.

He has moved her from KL where she was a helpless hostage to the Vale,a region with an untouched army and hoards of food. and now she is loved by lord of the Vale and is betrothed to his heir. Vale nobles seem to like her and she has already met mighty Bronze Yohn, one her father's loyal friends who could be an excellent ally for her.

Mastermind Littlefinger the main villain in her story, is now her mentor, teaching her lessons in politics and manipulation. also he is one of the richest man in the seven kingdoms with no family/ heir. sooner or later he will die be killed and Sansa has a very good chance of taking over part of his wealth and even some of his properties like his ship .she knows two of his closest servants,Oswell Kettleblack and Lothor Brune and I think if she pays them well they'll serve her. She has a chance to be a wealthy young lady with powerful allies/friends. she could be very helpful by providing the north with supplies before and during and after the war.

So she could exist and play an important role without changing his ending.

 

[Nevets]

41 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

Mastermind Littlefinger the main villain in her story, is now her mentor, teaching her lessons in politics and manipulation. also he is one of the richest man in the seven kingdoms with no family/ heir. sooner or later he will die and Sansa has a very good chance of taking over part of his wealth and even some of his properties like his ship .she knows two of his closest servants,Oswell Kettleblack and Lothor Brune and I think if she pays them well they'll serve her. She has a chance to be a wealthy young lady with powerful allies/friends. she could be very helpful by providing the north with supplies before and during and after the war.

So she could exist and play an important role without changing his ending.

Littlefinger is in his early 30's, quite young, even by Westeros standards.  If he dies, it will almost certainly be at Sansa's instigation, and maybe even by her own hand..  While he has no known family or heir, Sansa has no official relationship to him, so might have difficulty inheriting.  

I do expect that Bronze Yohn will be a useful ally (and may already know or suspect who she is), and she seems to be generally well liked, so could easily exert influence on that basis alone.  Being Stark will likely help greatly.

[winter daughter]

4 hours ago, Nevets said:

Littlefinger is in his early 30's, quite young, even by Westeros standards.  If he dies, it will almost certainly be at Sansa's instigation, and maybe even by her own hand..  While he has no known family or heir, Sansa has no official relationship to him, so might have difficulty inheriting.  

I agree... I should've said he will be killed   and I know she has no official relationship to him but I think it's not impossible for her to do that.

4 hours ago, Nevets said:

I do expect that Bronze Yohn will be a useful ally (and may already know or suspect who she is), and she seems to be generally well liked, so could easily exert influence on that basis alone.  Being Stark will likely help greatly.

I think Bronze Yohn will have a bigger rule in the next book. I want her to visit Runestone.

btw, how and when do you think she will be Sansa Stark again?

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

15 hours ago, Newstar said:

He claimed that the outline was just "making shit up," but there were several elements of the outline that made it to ASOIAF, so that in of itself was misleading. The outline confirmed that Ned is not Jon's father and that Jon would learn of his parentage, which seems to be the case in ASOIAF (GRRM also said that Jon would find out about his parentage). The outline killed off Ned, Cat, Robb, and Joffrey, while ASOIAF killed off Ned, Cat, Robb and Joffrey. Is that making shit up? The outline contained several lines at the end that someone redacted. If it was bullshit he made up to throw at the publisher, why bother redacting the end?

Taking GRRM's claim that the outline was just him "making shit up," a claim that's provably untrue given the published ASOIAF books, at face value in light of the circumstances is foolish. Did he change things since the outline? Sure. Was the outline just making shit up? No, of course not. Was the ending he planned when writing the outline the same as the ending of ASOIAF? According to GRRM, it is.

There are dozens, even hundreds of important characters in ASOIAF, even dozen of POVs, but there were only five central characters as of the outline who were guaranteed to survive the books, and not only was Sansa was not one of them, but she was also hinted to die early on. The logical implications of that for Sansa's potential importance to the 1991 endgame, which seems to be the 2020 (or 2025 or whenever ADOS is published) ASOIAF endgame, are pretty clear: she can't play any significant role.

 

Sure, Sansa's story has changed, but the broad strokes of GRRM's 1991 ending, conceived when Sansa was a secondary character he seemed to be planning on killing off, never have. No matter how much Sansa's story changes and grows, it cannot disturb or alter the broad strokes of the ending. That carries implications for what GRRM can and can't do with her character, and therefore for her endgame.

She can't end up on the Iron Throne (since that's going to one of the main five, assuming there is an Iron Throne), either as queen regnant or queen consort.

She can't end up with Winterfell (since that's going to go to one of the surviving Starks from the main five), and/or as Queen in the North.

She can't end up with Tyrion or Jon, since GRRM always had the same ending in mind for them which excluded Sansa. (Not that a ton of readers think Tyrion/Sansa or Sansa/Jon was likely, but still.)

She can't have any kind of pivotal role in the war against the WW or in the resolution of the issue of who gets the Iron Throne.

Essentially, she can't do anything that will change the broad strokes of the 1991 ending with her existence or involvement in the story, and that constrains what GRRM can do with Sansa.

As Sansa (presumably) grows in power and influence in ASOIAF under Littlefinger, and as the Starks make their long-awaited comeback, and as ADOS draws closer and closer, the harder and harder GRRM is going to have to work to keep her from affecting or changing his ending, which means that he may need to take her off the board to prevent her from doing that, either by killing her or removing her from power and influence. Maybe she goes on the run with Sandor and is never heard from again. Maybe she stays in the Vale, marries Harry the Heir, but never returns to Winterfell, leaving the Starks to sort out the Otherpocalypse themselves. Maybe he decides to hell with it and offs her.

With all that said, I think the Tyrion/Sansa marriage may be a sign from GRRM that Sansa isn't making it out of the books alive. GRRM never would have married Tyrion off to Sansa unless he planned on permanently extricating him from it (to keep his 1991 Sansa-less ending intact), and I have a feeling that an annulment is unlikely to take place.

 

You seem to be conflating his own words "making shit up" with the idea that I or anyone else who disagrees with you is too stupid to understand that the basic story plot is indeed right there in the 1993 outline-therefore he was lying & we haven't been as clever as you in noticing this. The basic story plot. But what you are failing to grasp or choosing to ignore is that other than the basic story plot it is very different and that this element is what the author is clearly referring to when he said he was "making shit up". We all know that he had the broad strokes of this story in his mind when he first pitched it. But what is evident is that at some point between 1993 & 1996 when Game came out. ie: when he actually got to writing the story. That a lot of what he'd shoved in the outline got abandoned, changed and developed into something else. And that this is in line with how he himself describes his writing style. He's still saying that he is coming up with new twists, new directions for characters. 

When we meet Sansa in Game she is introduced as not too dissimilar to the girl he first outlined in 93. But by the end of the book, we can already see that this girl will not be taking the same role he had in mind for her initially. And he's developed an idea for her involving a character who Correct me if I am wrong - was never in the outline. The Hound. He begins setting the new Sansa plot up in Game, and he has her regret her trust in the Lannisters and her fanciful crush on the supposed handsome prince.  Almost as soon as it has happened. She shows her enmity for Joff when he shows her her father's head in Sansa VI. This is already. Only 3 years after that outline, maybe far sooner depending on when he was writing, turning out to be a very different story arc for Sansa. In fact it is clear from Brans dream that his plans for Sansa in regards to the overarching plot for the series had changed dramatically. Because he sets her & Arya up in the dream as being deeply affected by what will go down in KL, and their lives being entwined with certain men. The Hound, who plays an important role for both of them and Jaime whom neither girl yet knows has chosen a path in life because of them and Brienne, which will change his fate entirely.And that third figure is LF, I know that one is disputed but to me, it is very clear. He is the Giant clad in stone, he is the savage giant and Sansa will kill him. 

GRRM follows this new direction for Sansa in Clash building up her relationship with Sandor and laying the crumbs re: LF and his plot to abduct her from KL. So you see it is quite clear that whilst the broad strokes remain the story developed hugely! and from very early on too. Her story became important as soon as he decided to have her kill off the series biggest human villain. So you can deny Sansa is important all you like. But what we have is a series of books in which she plays a pivotal role. And his own words including her as one of the important characters.

You seem to think the initial big 5 are all going to survive. Oh my sweet summer child..Seriously though, Why do you think this?   

And why do you think that the only important factors are who sits the IT and rules WF? Because I'll say it again. 5 people can't all do these two things. Much less 6.   

Seriously, Arya is undoubtedly important but I doubt she'll sit the IT and I strongly suspect she will die.

16 hours ago, Newstar said:

Essentially, she can't do anything that will change the broad strokes of the 1991 ending with her existence or involvement in the story, and that constrains what GRRM can do with Sansa.

 

And this. How do you know this? How on earth do you know what GRRM can or can't do with his own story? For all you know he could have decided that Sansa will play a crucial role in defeating the Others way back when he was writing Game, and it won't change who is sat in the IT. But it would mean she is now vital to the end game. The only thing we can take from the fact he has had the broad strokes of the story in mind since 91and that they are in the 93 outline is that this story is about the political games in the south and the greater threat in the north and it will involve Jon Snows parentage being revealed. We can surmise from the books which we have, so much more than this, and using those books it is very clear Sansa is an important character. 

 

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Sansa is important for 25 reasons and who knows how many more.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Also, what do you mean she can't do anything that will change the broad strokes? Why would anything she does be a change? She can do things which contribute to the broad strokes. Why would anything which elevates her to importance be in conflict with the ending? Or are you truly as obsessed with the IT as you are positioning yourself in these posts.?  I mean REALLY you think the only person who is important is the person who ends up on the IT? and or ruling WF? 

[UnFit Finlay]

10 hours ago, winter daughter said:

I agree... I should've said he will be killed   and I know she has no official relationship to him but I think it's not impossible for her to do that.

I think Bronze Yohn will have a bigger rule in the next book. I want her to visit Runestone.

btw, how and when do you think she will be Sansa Stark again?

I said as much earlier in the thread but I think she'll out herself to Bronze Yohn.

I don't see her simply standing back and letting Robert die and Bronze Yohn is the one guy that she can be certain isn't secretly Littlefinger's. I think she'll run off to Runestone with Robert, tell Bronze Yohn everything, including that she's really Sansa Stark. After all, that's the only real, concrete piece of evidence that she has against Littlefinger and, if she's willing to trust Bronze Yohn with her real identity, knowing she could be executed for regicide, it'd be impossible for him to doubt the rest of her story.

[HaeSuse]

I've been saying from the beginning, she's the most likely character to sit the throne, precisely because she's the least expected/wanted. I think it would be lackluster for her to do anything other than die in a blaze of glory, or rule the 7 kingdoms. 

[myhalfgroat]

I also have found Sansa annoying for the majority of the series. but I do think that her last few chapters have been pretty good and are going to keep improving.

I don't think that she'll end up seeing the beauty behind Tyrion's scars, that's just a bridge too far for me. where she ends up, I don't know. in fact I'm not sold on the idea of her being married at all. Sansa as the sole ruler of a seat would also be a nice character evolution from her "marry a handsome man and make babies" ambitions.

that is an excellent point about how she views Harry the Heir. I had not thought of it that way. thanks for pointing it out.

[foxberlin]

CAUTION, SPOILERS FOR TWOW BELOW

...the northern mountains seemed so close that Catelyn could almost reach out and touch them. Looming over them all was the jagged peak called the Giant’s Lance, a mountain that even mountains looked up to, its head lost in icy mists three and a half miles above the valley floor. Over its massive western shoulder flowed the ghost torrent of Alyssa’s Tears. Even from this distance, Catelyn could make out the shining silver thread, bright against the dark stone. When her uncle saw that she had stopped, he moved his horse closer and pointed. “It’s there, beside Alyssa’s Tears. All you can see from here is a flash of white every now and then, if you look hard and the sun hits the walls just right.” Seven towers, Ned had told her, like white daggers thrust into the belly of the sky, so high you can stand on the parapets and look down on the clouds. (Cat, A Game of Thrones)

The landscape of House Arryn translates itself into the sigil of the Kingsguard: a white shield surrounded by seven swords. And now the Alyane chapter in TWOW even shows us Sansa coming up with the idea of a Kingsguard on her own. For Sweet Robin officially, but as her Bastard name Alayne sounds like the German term for "alone", I trust her to finally understand about the nature of this "somewhere safe" Brienne would always miss to find for her in these tense times. Sansa might be the first damsel in distress building her own tower. Something the other queen, Cersei, is so tracically failing at in her attempt to gain freedom to rule, burning down the tower that could have protected her, the Tower of the Hand. I am with those that think that Sansa is now exactly were she is needed, surrounded by food and knights hungry for honour. Her Winged Knights have the ring of an air bridge providing allies with supplies. Might be, Sansa rescues Brienne and the Brotherhood through the winter at the end, another Kingsguard without king. So Riverlands and Vale can keep their bounds even with the Tully sisters gone. War all around, this would provide the reader with an interesting view at the logistics of war and after-war orders in the waiting. The Kingsguard needs to divide itself into law and order to be effective. Ned's was the old way, swinging the sword after spoken word. But a man can err. Brienne the sword and Jaime Goldenhand the Just might foreshadow a due balance of power. Sansa here represents a fair use of institutional power, no marriage needed which in Westeros has become only another form of prostitution. At this stage I don't see her sitting thrones and getting pregnant. And her dwarf husband Tyrion might return without any need to force himself unto others, since he is slowly learning from Penny to embrace his outer nature. The Giant's Lance is just a too cool place to show up per dragon...

[Luddagain]

Sansa is already married.

So she will need to wait until Tyrion dies or the marriage is annulled before she can marry anyone else.

I think she will willingly stay with Tyrion - recall he was KIND to her as he also was to many others- Bran, Jon, Penny etc.

However there are some disturbing hints/foreshadowing with Sansa. First there is obviously her loss of wolf, second there is some "ice cold" queen in her personality - the Winter Queen or Night Queen perhaps, thirdly there is that wolf/bat scuttlebut which does rather link her to harrenhall and perhaps mad donella Whent and also the rather loathsome Lothstones.

[foxberlin]

That's what I meant to write. The marriage might be annulled by Tyrion himself. Being kind towards each other is not exactly love, which both characters still have to explore.

[chrisdaw]

Love is not relevant to almost every marriage in Westeros, and yet it is the majority point whenever Tyrion and Sansa are discussed.

Sansa is turning into master player, love is not going to be driving her marital status.

[Jô Maltese]

Sansa is the more beautiful queen from the prophecy. It is known.

[foxberlin]

1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

(...) Sansa is turning into master player, love is not going to be driving her marital status.

That's why I see her unmarried and sitting no throne at the end. In my mind she would be something close to a Patrician, representing a new order of citizens acting on their new-won responsibility.

[Wm Portnoy]

Asking someone like Sansa to accept Tyrion's physical appearance is not reasonable.  We need to differentiate between character growth and changing the character.  Character growth is more maturity, less naive, and better self control.  I will give Sansa credit for her character growth but she is still the same person inside.  Sansa is a person who has to find a potential partner physically attractive.  If she doesn't find you attractive she's not going out on a date with you.  Don't you know people like that in life?  Sure, we all do.  That's Sansa for you.

The only way Sansa can be with Tyrion and not be miserable will require the author to completely change her character.  They do this on the TV show for fan service because they don't worry too much about continuity but you can't do that in a book that will be scrutinized to the level that the fans will do for many years to come. 

[chrisdaw]

Sansa's arc is the cleansing of romanticism by the cruel harsh world. A classic Marianne Dashwood. Passion replaced by calculation. Tyrion will not be her love, he will be her pawn, a piece to play in the game for the prize that replaces her romantic desires, power, the throne.

[Coolbeard the Exile]

On 2017-04-03 at 3:27 AM, Moiraine Sedai said:

George wants to surprise his readers but he's obsessive with plot set up and logical cause-effect.  Sansa becoming queen makes no sense.  I do not see it happening.  I do not want it to happen.  I am ok with Sansa becoming lady of winterfell but that's as far as I would like to see her get.  I don't like Sansa.  She is one of the more annoying people in this story.  Sansa is far too incompetent to even wait on tables at Denny's much less rule anything.

I don't get why people hate on Sansa so much she is an 11 year old girl at the start of the books with an 11 year old girls perspective.

It does make sense from a story perspective that Sansa would be in a position of power at the end of the books. She has been so badly misstreated and abused and she has been relativly soft and fraggile all this time so it makes sense for her to climb to a position of strength and power.

 

[Jô Maltese]

5 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Sansa's arc is the cleansing of romanticism by the cruel harsh world. A classic Marianne Dashwood. Passion replaced by calculation. Tyrion will not be her love, he will be her pawn, a piece to play in the game for the prize that replaces her romantic desires, power, the throne.

Interesting.