Sansas ending

[Endymion I Targaryen]

I see Sansa choosing to be with Tyrion who was kind to her. She will be queen of the South (except Dorne) and help Westeros heal its wounds. Her arc is heading for pawn to player. The lessons she took for Catelyn, Cersei and LF will make her have the most pragmatistic view.

[The Prince who was not pro]

9 minutes ago, Endymion I Targaryen said:

I see Sansa choosing to be with Tyrion who was kind to her. She will be queen of the South (except Dorne) and help Westeros heal its wounds. Her arc is heading for pawn to player. The lessons she took for Catelyn, Cersei and LF will make her have the most pragmatistic view.

Sure you refer to the tyrion of the series with that of "was kind to her," because in the books tyrion wants to abuse her and is a gray character unlike the tyrion of the show, anyway I do not think sansa go to Be the queen in the end.

[Endymion I Targaryen]

Sansa's belief about Tyrion is that he was kind:

Spoiler

“No. He was only . . . he was . . . ” Kind? She could not say that, not here, not to this aunt who hated him so. “He . . . he had whores, my lady. He told me so.” Sansa VI, Storm of Swords

Spoiler

Joffrey was comely too, though, she reminded herself. A comely monster, that's what he was. Little Lord Tyrion was kinder, twisted though he was. Alayne I, Winds of Winter.

He is a grey character but still he treated Sansa well. No beating, no force to consumate the wedding. 

[Morgana Lannister]

On 4/19/2017 at 2:50 PM, khal drogon said:

Because she simply don't have the skills, knowledge and capability to rule on her own at least by the end of the series. Maybe she will be a great queen years after but the Sansa of present will never have the power, legitimacy and skills to hold on to the throne which will also be affected by bad decisions and civil wars. She will make a good Queen consort though.

Not meaning any disrespect but how do you come to that conclusion given that George did not consider it a spoiler to say that she is learning the "game" fast. Any ruler, past, present or fictional who can rule (beyond consort or team member) lol is a despot by and large.  A good ruler has a good time who can neutralise him or her if need be; a team he or she can change and neutralise as well; all in the balance lol.  If you were to name one character in ASOIF capable or ruling along I would be interested to see who you pick.  For all my love and admiration for Tyrion, nope, he couldn't do it.  Same for Stannis' fans, capable guy but alone... nope!

Basically, saying I agree with you totally but I think that is true of Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Stannis and even Twyin lol No person alive is able to rule alone successfully IMHO!

[khal drogon]

7 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

Not meaning any disrespect but how do you come to that conclusion given that George did not consider it a spoiler to say that she is learning the "game" fast. Any ruler, past, present or fictional who can rule (beyond consort or team member) lol is a despot by and large.  A good ruler has a good time who can neutralise him or her if need be; a team he or she can change and neutralise as well; all in the balance lol.  If you were to name one character in ASOIF capable or ruling along I would be interested to see who you pick.  For all my love and admiration for Tyrion, nope, he couldn't do it.  Same for Stannis' fans, capable guy but alone... nope!

Basically, saying I agree with you totally but I think that is true of Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Stannis and even Twyin lol No person alive is able to rule alone successfully IMHO

A person good at the 'game' not necessarily will be good at ruling. Jon and Dany are learning to rule and Tyrion has already ruled. They are better candidates to rebuild a war torn Westeros than a girl who had zero ruling experience and no claim to any throne. 

Personally I feel any teenage ruler will always struggle without good advisors. Even prodigies like Jon, Dany and Tyrion. Maybe an experienced person like Tywin or Baelish can do it alone but not our young POVs.

[Morgana Lannister]

9 hours ago, khal drogon said:

A person good at the 'game' not necessarily will be good at ruling. Jon and Dany are learning to rule and Tyrion has already ruled. They are better candidates to rebuild a war torn Westeros than a girl who had zero ruling experience and no claim to any throne. 

Personally I feel any teenage ruler will always struggle without good advisors. Even prodigies like Jon, Dany and Tyrion. Maybe an experienced person like Tywin or Baelish can do it alone but not our young POVs.

lol I meant to say a good "team" not a "good time" and "ruling alone" not "along" lol I must have been tired when I posted this.

I agree that ruling is not the same as playing the game but they are not mutually exclusive skills either.  In fact, we appear to agree in that everyone needs a team but I would say this is not just true of a young person but everyone.  Whoever sits on the Throne (if there is still one at the end of this series) would struggle without serious advice and the humility to accept that they are not always in the right.  This is one of the things that Dany has been learning for instance.  To me the thing is that everyone has certain vulnerabilities that can prove dangerous and some of those are not even "faults" per se, thinking for instance of Ned's and Jon's sense of honour, same could go for Brienne here, Tyrion's vulnerability when it comes to women he falls for etc, Stannis' lack of flexibility.  I believe they all need someone able to give more detached advice but of course I agree that a young person will face more challenges than a more experienced one.

[crowcrow]

personally speaking, i don't see sansa "useless". i think when all of the starks are leaning towards the magical side (being wars/skinchangers and such) sansa tends to lean towards the realistic/political side of westeros (i know none of that will matter once winter comes but still its quite refreshing to read something that's not extraordinaire)

and since she's one of my top ten faves i really don't want to see her die and i wish her all the happiness and lemon cakes in the world <3. BUT i don't see her having a huge impact on the great finale of the books since the the books are starting to have more fantasy feels to it and are starting to get more "magical" and that's something sansa's chapters obviously lacks. and i also don't see her being a queen. yes, she is LF's apprentice now or whatever and she's becoming more manipulative and self aware but that doesn't mean that's entirely good. anything relating to LF is not good.period. i feel like she's becoming more evil (she's planning to kill her cousin ...like..kk) and there is a vague cercei vibe to her now. beside that, she doesn't really have any qualities that would make her a great leader. 

(and for some reason i feel like she's the new ashara dayne and i have this weird feeling that she might have the same ending... idk why)

[winter daughter]

35 minutes ago, RevaM said:

anything relating to LF is not good.period. i feel like she's becoming more evil (she's planning to kill her cousin ...like..kk) and there is a vague cercei vibe to her now.

All of the Stark kids have dark mentors: Bloodraven/ Faceless men / Litlefinger But that doesn't mean they are becoming evil.

And why do you think she is planning to kill SR?

[crowcrow]

Just now, winter daughter said:

All of the Stark kids have dark mentors: Bloodraven/ Faceless men / Litlefinger But that doesn't mean they are becoming evil.

And why do you think she is planning to kill SR?

Lf has already told Sansa about his plans with the vale and SR's death is included 

and yeah sure, all of the starks have dark mentors but this discussion is about sansa and not about the other stark sibs so...

[winter daughter]

3 minutes ago, RevaM said:

Lf has already told Sansa about his plans with the vale and SR's death is included 

It's part of their conversation:

Petyr arched an eyebrow. "When Robert dies. Our poor brave Sweetrobin is such a sickly boy, it is only a matter of time. When Robert dies, Harry the Heir becomes Lord Harrold, Defender of the Vale and Lord of the Eyrie..."

He is not talking about killing him. he is just  telling her that SR's death is inevitable because of his condition.

So if he has any plan to kill the boy she is not aware of it.

[crowcrow]

Just now, winter daughter said:

It's part of their conversation:

Petyr arched an eyebrow. "When Robert dies. Our poor brave Sweetrobin is such a sickly boy, it is only a matter of time. When Robert dies, Harry the Heir becomes Lord Harrold, Defender of the Vale and Lord of the Eyrie..."

He is not talking about killing him. he is just  telling her that SR's death is inevitable because of his condition.

So if he has any plan to kill the boy she is not aware of it.

i apologise, it's been long time since I've read the last book and my memory is a bit of a blur. so thanks for clarifying!

[winter daughter]

1 minute ago, RevaM said:

i apologise, it's been long time since I've read the last book and my memory is a bit of a blur. so thank for clarifying!

you're welcome

[Morgana Lannister]

4 hours ago, RevaM said:

personally speaking, i don't see sansa "useless". i think when all of the starks are leaning towards the magical side (being wars/skinchangers and such) sansa tends to lean towards the realistic/political side of westeros (i know none of that will matter once winter comes but still its quite refreshing to read something that's not extraordinaire)

and since she's one of my top ten faves i really don't want to see her die and i wish her all the happiness and lemon cakes in the world <3. BUT i don't see her having a huge impact on the great finale of the books since the the books are starting to have more fantasy feels to it and are starting to get more "magical" and that's something sansa's chapters obviously lacks. and i also don't see her being a queen. yes, she is LF's apprentice now or whatever and she's becoming more manipulative and self aware but that doesn't mean that's entirely good. anything relating to LF is not good.period. i feel like she's becoming more evil (she's planning to kill her cousin ...like..kk) and there is a vague cercei vibe to her now. beside that, she doesn't really have any qualities that would make her a great leader. 

(and for some reason i feel like she's the new ashara dayne and i have this weird feeling that she might have the same ending... idk why)

I wouldn' say evil and clearly you didn;t but rich and powerful and laying in her bed to the greatest sex instrument, mayhaps....but hey ship them lol; amazing sex, amazing power... would not say no lol  As for the magic, yeah, Bran is the one!!!!

[lomiller]

I find it kind of funny that people are trying to sell "Sansa's story" as a journey from romanticism to realism and then they go tack on a fairy tail ending where she is queen.  The whole concept makes no sense whatsoever. 

 

The southern politics and the game of thrones that Sansa is associating herself with are obstacles the hero's need to overcome to rally the forces of humanity and fact the Others.  Maybe she is becoming a mater politician.  I doubt it, IMO she's just being manipulated yet again, but even assuming she is it still places her firmly in the camp of those the hero's need to put down before they move on to the main show.  She started out as an antagonist, not on of the protagonists and there is nothing really suggesting that has changed.  IMO she will side with Littlefinger against Dany, Jon et al.  She will lose and die alone with the realization that happened because she turned her back on her family. 

[crowcrow]

7 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

I wouldn' say evil and clearly you didn;t but rich and powerful and laying in her bed to the greatest sex instrument, mayhaps....but hey ship them lol; amazing sex, amazing power... would not say no lol  As for the magic, yeah, Bran is the one!!!!

actually i imagined her as being sort of the powerful virgin lady like elizabeth the first (that is if she survives) 

and bran is NOT the only one, jon is also warg, arya is a warg AND a skinchanger, rickon sees these weird dreams that comes true. Sansa is the only one with no magical qualities or whatsoever and i think that was intended in purpose (as i said before, sansa's chapters tend to lean towards the political side of westeros)

[chrisdaw]

1 hour ago, lomiller said:

I find it kind of funny that people are trying to sell "Sansa's story" as a journey from romanticism to realism and then they go tack on a fairy tail ending where she is queen.  The whole concept makes no sense whatsoever.

The text has gone out of its way to relieve you of the fairy tale notion of queenhood. Queenhood runs parallel with Sansa's arc. The reader would have brought a romantic notion of queenhood to the text and in Sansa's POV it is reinforced, beauty, love, pageantry and the like. And then, very quickly and sharply destroyed. Sexual torture at the hands of their husband and king, child torture, political marriages to weasel slavers, presiding over games of death, captivity in towers, literal shit flinging, humiliating naked parades through cities and the like. If your notion of queenhood in ASOIAF is that of a fairy tale then you haven't been paying attention. 

[Prof. Cecily]

9 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

The text has gone out of its way to relieve you of the fairy tale notion of queenhood. Queenhood runs parallel with Sansa's arc. The reader would have brought a romantic notion of queenhood to the text and in Sansa's POV it is reinforced, beauty, love, pageantry and the like. And then, very quickly and sharply destroyed. Sexual torture at the hands of their husband and king, child torture, political marriages to weasel slavers, presiding over games of death, captivity in towers, literal shit flinging, humiliating naked parades through cities and the like. If your notion of queenhood in ASOIAF is that of a fairy tale then you haven't been paying attention. 

Bravo.

I like the brainstorming on this thread. Ideas about government through teamwork, the intertwined and conflicting arcs of social progress and heroic endeavour are being considered in relation to outcomes that include Sansa. Yet Sansa is a small person and I don't quite see how or where she can fit in context of the books.

Westeros is currently devastated by non-magical, horrific warfare. Economic, social and cultural recovery seems precarious, at best. Not only White Walkers but an imminent invasion by a would-be conqueror with a huge army, navy and dragons loom on the horizon.

I don't quite see how the magical events of this saga will play out. Are we looking at a society ruled by visions and dragonlords?

 

Then there is the landing of Aegon in the Stormlands (Varys' maneuvering for Aegon has me confused, yes) and also Aeron's pillaging of the western shores, with Highgarden and the Citadel under possible threat.

And then we have the Iron Bank. And the Wildlings. And the virtual destruction of many Great Houses (who will fill this power vacuum?) And the Sparrows, with their fanatic militia which seems to have taken over the countryside. Shall we see a bleak scenario for Westeros straight out of one of Hieronymus Bosch's paintings? Real life history shows us that generations are needed to even begin to think about recovery after wartime (think in terms of Sherman's March to the Sea)

Where does our Sansa fit in such a world? I can't see her as an Eleanor Roosevelt style consort- fighting for social justice and working to alleviate the lot of the poor. Queen Margaery would be much more apt for this role, if she survives long enough.

The further I get along in  my second rereading the less possibility I see for happy and relevant endings for Sansa. At the best, I simply hope she doesn't end up as a subject for  Qyburn's experimental...ah...research.

 

 

 

[winter daughter]

2 hours ago, lomiller said:

...but even assuming she is it still places her firmly in the camp of those the hero's need to put down before they move on to the main show.  She started out as an antagonist, not on of the protagonists and there is nothing really suggesting that has changed.  IMO she will side with Littlefinger against Dany, Jon et al.  She will lose and die alone with the realization that happened because she turned her back on her family. 

Why would she side with Littlefinger against Jon? the only reason she is cooperating with him is because she thinks she has no other choice. she believes he is her only chance to survive and go home.

And I summarized her story and also included your prediction:

AGOT: She turns her back on her family and regrets it.

ACOG: She just wants to go home and be with her family.

ASOS: She just wants to go home.

AFFC/ADWD: She just wants to go home./ she is learning politics from on of the best mentors.

AWOW/ADOS: She turns her back on her family and regrets it and dies alone.

IMO if George wanted her to die alone and regretful after turning her back on her family he would've killed her in the first book.

 

 

[chrisdaw]

The whole thing is rather strongly set up and is not that complicated. Of those people that are not just going by wishful thinking there seems to be two main miscalculations people make. The first is that we are near the end. We are not, there is much to come and the Others are very far from becoming a factor that impacts anything South or all the POV characters. The second is this feeling GRRM is going to pull punches under some guise of realism. "GRRM wouldn't do that," and the like gets thrown about way too much. This is a massive fantasy work, fantasy being the operative word, this is a fantastical story. Themes will be delivered on in the most epic possible way he can imagine. He in fact has already imagined it and is plodding his way there as plausibly as possible.

With that in mind what will happen is this. Aegon with the GC and Dorne at his back and the Spider pulling strings will rip through Westeros, take KL and become king. And he will be a much loved and celebrated king. Cloth dragon cheering crowds. Master manipulator Varys will seemingly have his win.

Then will come Dany who will war and kill Aegon. Dance of dragons, slayer of lies. And she will be extremely hated for it, and for every other reason being cultivated of which there are many threads dedicated to. The schemes of master manipulator Varys blows up in his face, fitting. Then like the only other dragon queen ever Dany will be thrown out by revolt in KL. The logical conclusion for why Aegon is being set to be so loved and why Dany is being set to be so hated.

Then a succession crisis, no clear answer for who should now rule. One of Cersei's children if they still live is the most logical answer, or Cersei herself if they don't. Problem is by then everyone has realised Cersei is a terrible ruler and no-one wants that. The text provides a mechanism for the occasion of there being no clear successor, a Grand Council, a pure political process.

Enter Sansa, the younger more beautiful queen and fully awakened game player to play off against Cersei for the votes of all the lords in Westeros in a winner takes all scenario.

[Morgana Lannister]

7 hours ago, RevaM said:

actually i imagined her as being sort of the powerful virgin lady like elizabeth the first (that is if she survives) 

and bran is NOT the only one, jon is also warg, arya is a warg AND a skinchanger, rickon sees these weird dreams that comes true. Sansa is the only one with no magical qualities or whatsoever and i think that was intended in purpose (as i said before, sansa's chapters tend to lean towards the political side of westeros)

I was joking actually re sex lol  I agree that she could be powerful just by herself but I don't fee there is absolutely necessary for a powerful woman to be single.  In fact even in our times most powerful women have partners.  I guess it's just me but I think a powerful alliance could help unite the realm.  As long as neither of the partners are extremely domineering I personally don't see how marriage weakens a woman's power (although I am not saying this is what you are saying either).