Jump to content

Sansas ending


The Exiled Septa

Recommended Posts

 

7 hours ago, RevaM said:

Sansa is the only one with no magical qualities or whatsoever and i think that was intended in purpose (as i said before, sansa's chapters tend to lean towards the political side of westeros)

Not so. GRRM has said that all the Stark kids are wargs. Sansa's power is latent, due to the loss of her direwolf. But it exists.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

The text has gone out of its way to relieve you of the fairy tale notion of queenhood. Queenhood runs parallel with Sansa's arc. The reader would have brought a romantic notion of queenhood to the text and in Sansa's POV it is reinforced, beauty, love, pageantry and the like. And then, very quickly and sharply destroyed. Sexual torture at the hands of their husband and king, child torture, political marriages to weasel slavers, presiding over games of death, captivity in towers, literal shit flinging, humiliating naked parades through cities and the like. If your notion of queenhood in ASOIAF is that of a fairy tale then you haven't been paying attention. 

It's a world where higher ranking people can do what they want with impunity to those of lower rank.  If you think being queen is worse than not being queen you are the one who hasn't been paying attention.  It's totally the Westeros version of a fairy tale ending and completely at odds with the story arc so many people seem to imagine Sansa having. 

 

It's clear at this point that entire social structure is an obstacle for the hero's to tear down in order to rally what's left of humanity against the Others.  This makes the people who are part of that structure, which includes Sansa at this point, enemies that need to be defeated. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, winter daughter said:

Why would she side with Littlefinger against Jon? the only reason she is cooperating with him is because she thinks she has no other choice. she believes he is her only chance to survive and go home.

 

Because she likes and admires Littlefinger and even if she thinks of him as family at all she's never been one to side with her family over those she admired.  This isn't just something from early in the story.  When she realized Littlefinger was murdering murdering her cousin she barely even cared. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, lomiller said:

Because she likes and admires Littlefinger and even if she thinks of him as family at all she's never been one to side with her family over those she admired.  This isn't just something from early in the story.  When she realized Littlefinger was murdering murdering her cousin she barely even cared. 

And when did she realize he was murdering her cousin? are you referring to this conversation?

Petyr arched an eyebrow. "When Robert dies. Our poor brave Sweetrobin is such a sickly boy, it is only a matter of time. When Robert dies, Harry the Heir becomes Lord Harrold, Defender of the Vale and Lord of the Eyrie..."

He is just saying that his death is inevitable because of his condition.

And she admires his courage and intelligence but she doesn't trust him. as I said she is just cooperating with him because she thinks she has no other choice:

"...Only sometimes Sansa found it hard to tell where the man ended and the mask began. Littlefinger and Lord Petyr looked so very much alike. She would have fled them both, perhaps, but there was nowhere for her to go. Winterfell was burned and desolate, Bran and Rickon dead and cold. Robb had been betrayed and murdered at the Twins, along with their lady mother. Tyrion had been put to death for killing Joffrey, and if she ever returned to King's Landing the queen would have her head as well. The aunt she'd hoped would keep her safe had tried to murder her instead. Her uncle Edmure was a captive of the Freys, while her great-uncle the Blackfish was under siege at Riverrun. I have no place but here, Sansa thought miserably, and no true friend but Petyr."

And Sansa and her dreams have changed greatly since the first book. Now she just wants to go home.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

And when did she realize he was murdering her cousin? are you referring to this conversation?

Petyr arched an eyebrow. "When Robert dies. Our poor brave Sweetrobin is such a sickly boy, it is only a matter of time. When Robert dies, Harry the Heir becomes Lord Harrold, Defender of the Vale and Lord of the Eyrie..."

He is just saying that his death is inevitable because of his condition.

And she admires his courage and intelligence but she doesn't trust him. as I said she is just cooperating with him because she thinks she has no other choice:

"...Only sometimes Sansa found it hard to tell where the man ended and the mask began. Littlefinger and Lord Petyr looked so very much alike. She would have fled them both, perhaps, but there was nowhere for her to go. Winterfell was burned and desolate, Bran and Rickon dead and cold. Robb had been betrayed and murdered at the Twins, along with their lady mother. Tyrion had been put to death for killing Joffrey, and if she ever returned to King's Landing the queen would have her head as well. The aunt she'd hoped would keep her safe had tried to murder her instead. Her uncle Edmure was a captive of the Freys, while her great-uncle the Blackfish was under siege at Riverrun. I have no place but here, Sansa thought miserably, and no true friend but Petyr."

And Sansa and her dreams have changed greatly since the first book. Now she just wants to go home.

 

It always seemed to me that Littlefinger was the one doing the poisoning and maybe Lysa was crazy because she was an addict herself, or something. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

57 minutes ago, Sea Dragon said:

It always seemed to me that Littlefinger was the one doing the poisoning and maybe Lysa was crazy because she was an addict herself, or something. 

Littlefinger needs SR alive for at least one year. he is his only excuse to stay at Vale after Lysa's death. So I think he has no plan to kill him anytime soon.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, lomiller said:

It's a world where higher ranking people can do what they want with impunity to those of lower rank.  If you think being queen is worse than not being queen you are the one who hasn't been paying attention.  It's totally the Westeros version of a fairy tale ending and completely at odds with the story arc so many people seem to imagine Sansa having. 

 

It's clear at this point that entire social structure is an obstacle for the hero's to tear down in order to rally what's left of humanity against the Others.  This makes the people who are part of that structure, which includes Sansa at this point, enemies that need to be defeated. 

There's absolutely nothing in the text to support a coming revolution. There's no-one musing on a different method of government for Westeros. There's nothing presented as a viable option. Ever. The structure is set for the characters to work within, to bring about the sacrifices many will need make.

Large swathes of text is dedicated to showing how a queen can not act with impunity. That it requires sacrifice. Happy ending queens are approximately 3 to 20.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

I was joking actually re sex lol  I agree that she could be powerful just by herself but I don't fee there is absolutely necessary for a powerful woman to be single.  In fact even in our times most powerful women have partners.  I guess it's just me but I think a powerful alliance could help unite the realm.  As long as neither of the partners are extremely domineering I personally don't see how marriage weakens a woman's power (although I am not saying this is what you are saying either).

i agree with you, but hey what's wrong with being a single lady? she can be the beyonce of westeros XD 

But in all seriousness,i just don't see sansa wanting to marry anyone anymore. after joffrey and tyrion and possible harry, i don't see sansa being interested in marriage AT ALL. 

she can be the lady of vale or winterfell but i don't see her becoming the queen of westeros, she doesn't have any qualities for that unfortunately. it annoys me how so many people want sansa to be a queen after all that has happened. like, do people really expect martin to give sansa the dream she has wished for? that's not very grrm like. and lets be honest here, after all that has been going on, westeros really deserves a good ruler (someone who is not manipulative and has qualities that can bring good to the people and can restore the realm and sansa isn't really the best candidate and neither is dany) and just because it was sansa's dream to be a queen, doesn't really mean she has to be a one. i want to be shakira, does that mean i'll swap places with her?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Dany chapters make it clear that ruling may be glamorous, but is not often easy or fun (as do the chapter with Robert). The Cersei chapters also show int can suck to be a queen consort. Life is not a fairytale, even if you are the queen or king, maybe especially so, as people watch, criticize, force you on a walk of shame, make you marry someone you dislike, even try to kill you in the game of thrones.

If Sansa is a queen consort, she may be treated as a pawn, a breeding sow,  a councilor, a diplomatic tool, or a hostess for events. She may be better at absolute ruling than you think, if she has decent support. It really depends on who survives the battle for the dawn, doesn't it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

... Life is not a fairytale, even if you are the queen or king, maybe especially so, as people watch, criticize, force you on a walk of shame, make you marry someone you dislike, even try to kill you in the game of thrones.

If Sansa is a queen consort, she may be treated as a pawn, a breeding sow,  a councilor, a diplomatic tool, or a hostess for events. She may be better at absolute ruling than you think, if she has decent support. It really depends on who survives the battle for the dawn, doesn't it?

After what GRRM tells us of the lives of women of the lower classes, that sounds simply fabulous, @HoodedCrow.Westeros is a terrible place to be a woman. Ask Brienne.

Braavos sounds like much more fun.

Or Dorne, with blood oranges and lemons!

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

There's absolutely nothing in the text to support a coming revolution. There's no-one musing on a different method of government for Westeros. There's nothing presented as a viable option. Ever. The structure is set for the characters to work within, to bring about the sacrifices many will need make.

Hmmmmm, not necessarily. Somebody "musing on a different method of government for Westeros" is not the sole way that government systems change.

It's been 300 years since the last shift in the ruling structure in Westeros, to be sure, but it was definitely a major shift. It's likely that nobody in Westeros, with the exception of Aegon The Conquerer himself, had spent any time musing on a different method of government up until that moment. Yet a very different method is exactly what they got.

It's certainly possible that a changed form of government in Westeros could emerge by necessity out of the ashes of the war for the dawn*. In that case, it wouldn't really require somebody to dream up a whole new system, figure out its rules, etc. and attempt to apply it; people would have to just get on with doing what needs to be done, which very plausibly could be doing things very differently than they did before.

It happened before. It could happen again. :D

*That is what I really wish will happen. I just don't see the point of ending a long saga with the government/ruling system almost exactly as it was at the beginning of the saga. Otherwise, what was the point of it all?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, I think Westeros is a terrible place for women in general, and most people in war time:)

if it weren't war time, it would probably have been best to be someone like Lady Smallwood, a wealthy vintners daughter in the Arbor, or a craftmans wife. In these wars nobody is safe.

But I think the queens in Westeros, have more than there fair share of beatings, rape, deaths or near deaths in childbirth, imprisonment, sewing as the height of a good time, cheating husbands, crazy husbands, husbands who hate them, killings, and assassination attempts. 

The Kings don't usually have such a swell time either.

Martin takes a lot of his example from real life, too.

Sansa could be modeled on Elizabeth of York to some extent, who has a troubled, but more traditional passive life with an early death, or Elizabeth l, who doesn't break out of constant threat till she is 25, and actually never, because Catholic powers were trying to get her assassinated, married to a dominating husband, or deposed and killed.

Since this is a fantasy novel, the options are open to authors choice, but it does seem like she will have a big role to play, or why bother with her POV and development?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

Yes, I think Westeros is a terrible place for women in general, and most people in war time:)

if it weren't war time, it would probably have been best to be someone like Lady Smallwood, a wealthy vintners daughter in the Arbor, or a craftmans wife. In these wars nobody is safe.

But I think the queens in Westeros, have more than there fair share of beatings, rape, deaths or near deaths in childbirth, imprisonment, sewing as the height of a good time, cheating husbands, crazy husbands, husbands who hate them, killings, and assassination attempts. 

The Kings don't usually have such a swell time either.

Martin takes a lot of his example from real life, too.

Sansa could be modeled on Elizabeth of York to some extent, who has a troubled, but more traditional passive life with an early death, or Elizabeth l, who doesn't break out of constant threat till she is 25, and actually never, because Catholic powers were trying to get her assassinated, married to a dominating husband, or deposed and killed.

Since this is a fantasy novel, the options are open to authors choice, but it does seem like she will have a big role to play, or why bother with her POV and development?

 

Yes, a niche like that of Lady Smallwood sounds great.

Except,as you say, in wartime. I wonder how her daughter fares in that chapterhouse in Oldtown, threatened by the Iron Men.

Quote

Sansa could be modeled on Elizabeth of York to some extent, who has a troubled, but more traditional passive life with an early death

I see her modeled on that figure as well, very much a piece to be traded, exchanged and marketed. And under the thumb of her mother-in-law, to boot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Agreed Prof. Cecily. Elizabeth of York was a bargain chip, as were most noble/royal girls and women.

Elizabeth of York also was bastardized for shady reasons, in sanctuary for years, had two younger brothers who would have been Kings vanish into thin air, was creeped on by an uncle who got her out of sanctuary, and was married to the victor of battle whose bloodlines were weaker by far. She had no choice in any of it.

Sansa is likely a much better representative of the historical times than Arya (much I I like the character). Do you think that she will be married to Aegon?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Hmmmmm, not necessarily. Somebody "musing on a different method of government for Westeros" is not the sole way that government systems change.

It's been 300 years since the last shift in the ruling structure in Westeros, to be sure, but it was definitely a major shift. It's likely that nobody in Westeros, with the exception of Aegon The Conquerer himself, had spent any time musing on a different method of government up until that moment. Yet a very different method is exactly what they got.

It's certainly possible that a changed form of government in Westeros could emerge by necessity out of the ashes of the war for the dawn*. In that case, it wouldn't really require somebody to dream up a whole new system, figure out its rules, etc. and attempt to apply it; people would have to just get on with doing what needs to be done, which very plausibly could be doing things very differently than they did before.

It happened before. It could happen again. :D

*That is what I really wish will happen. I just don't see the point of ending a long saga with the government/ruling system almost exactly as it was at the beginning of the saga. Otherwise, what was the point of it all?

The Targs didn't change the system of governance in Westeros. It's a setting, its not the point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

*That is what I really wish will happen. I just don't see the point of ending a long saga with the government/ruling system almost exactly as it was at the beginning of the saga. Otherwise, what was the point of it all?

I agree. GRRM has sufficiently evidenced the flaws of the current systems, in Westeros and Essos. And provided the opportunity to destroy everything in place with the Long Night. I believe his intend is to have the survivors rebuilding something completely new. I believe some words of the Night Watch oaths are the spirit of it: "hold no lands", "wear no crowns", "win no glory". The NW itself is destroyed, will need to become something else. OK, it is utopian, unrealistic. But the LN itself is unrealistic.

BTW, Aegon The Conquerer really changed the system. It went from a constant war between petty kings, to a single kingdom, with the King's peace. But this system is still imperfect. If the king is good, fine. But if his son is weak, unwise, corrupted, cruel ... all the kingdom suffers and no one can fix it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On ‎4‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 9:02 PM, Valedina said:

Sansa is a preety useless character.When i think of her contribution to the asoiaf i realise that she is like an outsider.Except for some minor cases  she is constantly exploited by others and she doesnt interfere with the general plot

I am of the opinion that Sansa will be one of, if not the only characters to survive the whole story.

 

Sansa seems useless and like an "outsider"

 

Outsider is important here. However, useless is totally incorrect imo. I have long held the belief that Sansa is us...the reader. Look at Sansa's arc. It parallels the arc of the first time reader of asoiaf. Sansa is a believer in old songs, tales of chivalry, of knights and ladies, of court pageantry just like many of us, myself included, believed in the simple fantasy tropes of yesteryear. Orcs were bad and the good guys were beautiful. There was a demarcation between good and evil which was absolute. All those tropes that grrm bucks to create his amazing story.

 

We look around and know there is something wrong. Ewoks bring down the empire. Aaragorn being the benevolent leader. It is all too clean. But we don't say anything. we enjoy our stories, our little dreams. We talk about them over and over again. But as we get older, more and more the reality of the world creeps in on us. We aren't blind to everything, but we are trying to remain innocent. We see minor injustice and write it off. Bran falls from the tower. Ok. We can fit this in a box somehow. Joff is a total dick, but he looks SO MUCH like a prince. They killed our direwolf. It's arya's fault anyway. More and more the world crowds us with dark realities but we fight them, keep them at bay because we know the good guys will win, the beautiful princess and the handsome prince will prevail....IT IS IN ALL THE SONGS!!!! IT CAN'T BE WRONG.....and then one day Ilyn Paine removes Ned Starks head with his own sword.

The songs were wrong. The hound was right. Littlefinger was right. There is no meaning. There is no justice. The world isn't fair. The handsome prince is a monster. The monsterous warrior with the burnt face is a dreamer and the noble ned stark is now dead.

Then the beautiful queen turns out to be a gaoler. But there is hope with Dontos. Florian the fool. Ok, maybe there is some way. Something. Some sense....bzzzzz ok sansa/reader got your hopes up again. lol life sucks. By the time we are at feast the lannisters (Tyrion and Jamie) are the good guys in a way, littlefinger is helping us, we are lying to the lords declarant. Everything is all wrong but yet somehow we always knew it was supposed to be this way.

 

I really think that Sansa's path is one to watch very carefully. I think built into Sansa's arc is the arc that the reader will follow and that in the end Sansa will see the story finish, for better or for worse, and will be left in much the same place as the reader....where that is only George knows

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 06/04/2017 at 3:02 PM, UnFit Finlay said:

I said as much earlier in the thread but I think she'll out herself to Bronze Yohn.

I don't see her simply standing back and letting Robert die... 

Actually I can see her doing just that; Sweet Robin has the potential to become a monster, resuming where Joffrey left off. If he ordered the death of a Stark, I believe she would stand by while Baelish fed SR too much calming medicine, despite the maester's warning. It is, after all, exactly how SR's father, Arryn died. It only needs an accomplice to distract the resident maester. 

(Yes, possibly I've been reading too many murder mysteries while we await TWOW.)

That would also give Sansa a hold over Baelish, as if she ever told the Lords of the Vale what he had done, they would execute him for it. She might even betray Baelish thus, and proceed to marry Harry the Heir afterwards... Jon could have Winterfell and Sansa the Vale. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...