Jump to content

Sansas ending


The Exiled Septa

Recommended Posts

6 hours ago, YOVMO said:

I am of the opinion that Sansa will be one of, if not the only characters to survive the whole story.

 

Sansa seems useless and like an "outsider"

 

Outsider is important here. However, useless is totally incorrect imo. I have long held the belief that Sansa is us...the reader. Look at Sansa's arc. It parallels the arc of the first time reader of asoiaf. Sansa is a believer in old songs, tales of chivalry, of knights and ladies, of court pageantry just like many of us, myself included, believed in the simple fantasy tropes of yesteryear. Orcs were bad and the good guys were beautiful. There was a demarcation between good and evil which was absolute. All those tropes that grrm bucks to create his amazing story.

 

We look around and know there is something wrong. Ewoks bring down the empire. Aaragorn being the benevolent leader. It is all too clean. But we don't say anything. we enjoy our stories, our little dreams. We talk about them over and over again. But as we get older, more and more the reality of the world creeps in on us. We aren't blind to everything, but we are trying to remain innocent. We see minor injustice and write it off. Bran falls from the tower. Ok. We can fit this in a box somehow. Joff is a total dick, but he looks SO MUCH like a prince. They killed our direwolf. It's arya's fault anyway. More and more the world crowds us with dark realities but we fight them, keep them at bay because we know the good guys will win, the beautiful princess and the handsome prince will prevail....IT IS IN ALL THE SONGS!!!! IT CAN'T BE WRONG.....and then one day Ilyn Paine removes Ned Starks head with his own sword.

The songs were wrong. The hound was right. Littlefinger was right. There is no meaning. There is no justice. The world isn't fair. The handsome prince is a monster. The monsterous warrior with the burnt face is a dreamer and the noble ned stark is now dead.

Then the beautiful queen turns out to be a gaoler. But there is hope with Dontos. Florian the fool. Ok, maybe there is some way. Something. Some sense....bzzzzz ok sansa/reader got your hopes up again. lol life sucks. By the time we are at feast the lannisters (Tyrion and Jamie) are the good guys in a way, littlefinger is helping us, we are lying to the lords declarant. Everything is all wrong but yet somehow we always knew it was supposed to be this way.

 

I really think that Sansa's path is one to watch very carefully. I think built into Sansa's arc is the arc that the reader will follow and that in the end Sansa will see the story finish, for better or for worse, and will be left in much the same place as the reader....where that is only George knows

Great analysis of Sansa's arc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nice, YOVMO!

I don't think Sansa is a completely passive observer., however. She lies a lot. She told on Ned, in a huge mistake. She decided to back Cersei and Joff. She spoke out to try to save Ned. She told Lady Olenna about Joff.  She considered pushing Joff off a wall. She tried to trick Joff into leading the Vanguard. She dissed him. She did save Ser Dontos. She was down with the escape plan.She judged the hound to be someone who wouldn't harm her. She turned down Tyrion sexually and also refused to kneel.She rallied the ladies into singing a comforting hymn when Cersei was drunk and threatening her with ser Illyn in the middle of battle. She got Sweetrobin across the precipice, and she mothers him. She is going along with Littlefinger, and keeping her mouth shut for now.

I think Sansa has done more than most conventional women can do for the Westeros world as presented. Her choices are very limited. I do think we are meant to feel her hopelessness against events. Yes she is one to watch. 

I think that whoever she marries next will have a good chance of dying, whether it's Harry, SR, Littlefinger or Aegon. Yes, it will be interesting to see what kind of control over her future she ends up with. I don't think she will believe in fairytales in the same way as she grows up, whether she is a queen or not!

i do think she will survive, because that is the remarkable thing she has done.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On April 19, 2017 at 6:42 PM, khal drogon said:

Sansa as the Queen in the Iron throne is the most bittersweet ending I could think of. Westeros is thankfully saved from the Others but looking at a disastrous regime of Sansa.

100% agreement. while i love Sansa A LOT, i think she isn't really a queen material. She has no qualities or whatsoever to be fit as a ruler and just because it was her childhood dream doesn't mean that Martin will make it happen. if anything he will make the complete opposite and we all know that he's good at that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On April 19, 2017 at 9:07 PM, winter daughter said:

Her story has always been about politics. she has learned a lot since the beginning of the series and there are still two books left. and I think good kings and queens do not rule on their own...they are usually surrounded by good advisors.

But she doesn't fit Varys' criteria on how a perfect ruler should be like (and lets be real here, after all the shit that has happened in westeros+the future battle against the Others, Westeros will really need a good ruler)

Here is the Quote:

"Aegon has been shaped for rule before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them."

Besides from getting a noble lady's education, sansa doesn't have any of those qualities...(But Arya, on the other hand, does. But since this discussion is about Sansa, Im not going to say anything further)

And being a queen is just not part of her arc. Being a lady of winterfell/Vale, sure. I mean her dire wolf's name WAS Lady afterall. But a queen? nah...That's more Arya imho, she's a natural leader (sure she doesn't realizes that now but lets gives her some time for that)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On April 23, 2017 at 6:49 PM, The Ned's Little Girl said:

 

Not so. GRRM has said that all the Stark kids are wargs. Sansa's power is latent, due to the loss of her direwolf. But it exists.

 

yes, GRRM has said it, I've read that too but its not that obvious in the books and her chapters generally aren't about magic jsyk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sansa's not going to be the final queen on the throne, she's going to be the newly widowed queen on the throne when Jon comes and takes KL. The queen Jon will need to deal with to marry Arya to the new king for whom Sansa speaks for. There's nothing of the north left for Sansa's story, the north is the KITN's training ground. Hers is the Vale and it is training for the game of thrones and the game is in KL.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, RevaM said:

And being a queen is just not part of her arc. Being a lady of winterfell/Vale, sure. I mean her dire wolf's name WAS Lady afterall. But a queen? nah...That's more Arya imho, she's a natural leader (sure she doesn't realizes that now but lets gives her some time for that)

I don't think she'll be queen but being a queen is actually a big part of her arc. she was supposed to become queen till the end of ACOK. She has spent 2 years in the court with two queens(Cersei and Margaery) and Westeros nobility. during the battle of black water Cersei got drunk,lost her shit and fled and it was 12 year old Sansa who remained calm and tried to comfort frightened women and children although she was scared and under a lot of pressure.and Tyrion thinks Sansa could make a good queen because she knows how to charm people.

Margaery is not a natural leader either but she is a good queen and people love her.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, winter daughter said:

I don't think she'll be queen but being a queen is actually a big part of her arc. she was supposed to become queen till the end of ACOK. She has spend 2 years in the court with two queen(Cersei and Mageary) and Westeros nobility. during the battle of black water Cersei got drunk,lost her shit and fled and it was 12 year old Sansa who remained calm and tried to comfort frightened women and children although she was scared and under a lot of pressure.and Tyrion thinks Sansa could make a good queen because she knows how to charm people.

Margaery is not a natural leader either but she is a good queen and people love her.

But what will happen after the war ends+white walker shit is done???

Westeros is going to need a ruler. A GOOD ruler, who has qualities of a ruler. That's why people like Margery, Cercei, Sansa are not good candidates.

And do you really REALLLYYYY think that George will give Sansa her dream?

Bran wanted to become a king, so george broke his legs

Sansa wanted to marry a charming prince so george gave her Joffrey

Arya doesn't want to be a queen but her dire wolf's name is Nymeria, named after a warrior queen, and she fits into all of Varys' criteria of how a perfect leader should be like, and she also has a very dominant personality+there have been many foreshadowings that she might become a queen, and what will GRRM do? most likely make arya a queen.

Sansa's Direwolf's name is Lady, so i think she will be just that.A lady. Whether she will be a lady of WInterfell or a lady of the Vale, only the last 2 books will tell.

and notice how all of the stark kids' dire wolf's name are all symbolic (E.g: Robb's direwiolf's name was Grey Wind, and that perfectly reflected Robb as a leader. Powerful But short lived.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, RevaM said:

And do you really REALLLYYYY think that George will give Sansa her dream?

I clearly said that I don't think she will be queen.

And being a queen is not Sansa's dream anymore. it was her dream and then turned to her nightmare after her father's execution.

30 minutes ago, RevaM said:

Westeros is going to need a ruler. A GOOD ruler, who has qualities of a ruler. That's why people like Margery, Cercei, Sansa are not good candidates.

Sansa and Cersei are not alike. the writer makes it clear in their every interaction. Sansa's personality is actually similar to Margaery. And why Margaery is not a good candidate?

And you are ignoring her good qualities just to prove she will not be a good ruler.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, winter daughter said:

I clearly said that I don't think she will be queen.

And being a queen is not Sansa's dream anymore. it was her dream and then turned to her nightmare after her father's execution.

Sansa and Cersei are not alike. the writer makes it clear in their every interactions Sansa's personality is actually similar to Margaery.

And you are ignoring her every good quality just to prove she will not be a good ruler.

 

Woah WOah wWoah hold on there sparky

okey

first, i LOVE Sansa!  I really do, she is one of my faves and I'm not ignoring her qualities. She is a very smart, perceptive, kind, passionate and etc young lady and i wish her all the happiness

BUT

i don't see her as a queen material, simply because she doesn't have qualities of a queen not because i try to ignore all of her good qualities.

I'll explain it to you:

"Aegon has been shaped for rule before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them."

 

-Sansa has a noble lady's education, can read, write and, studied poetry and everything included etc etc.

-Sansa has not been trained in arms (though this does not count since she's a girl)

-Sansa doesn't know any extra languages

-She doesn't know much about other faiths besides the seven and the old Gods

- she has never lived with commoners so therefore, she cannot relate to them

-she doesn't know what hunger feels like

-she can't bid her wounds, can't fish, can't cook, can't clean her clothes and etc.

-she knows what its like to be afraid and hunted but not on the same level as Arya

-she can't swim, nor has worked with her hands

-she isn't very good at math, (but arya is though)

i'm not ignoring Sansa'a qualities, I'm simply pointing out the fact that she doesn't have many qualities of a queen/ruler. 

Also, you say that you don't think she will be a queen but then you give me reasons why you think she will be a queen. that's contraction at its best. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the Iron Throne ends up being a constitional monarchy of sorts, then Sansa as queen would have to be good at ceremonial functions, and have heirs. Check. Queen Victoria had less going for her than Sansa. Elizabeth ll has been a conscientious and dutiful queen, in a hereditary figurehead role. If she had more power, then Sansa would have to choose excellent advisors, like Elizabeth l did. If Sansa is a queen consort, then she has the chops. I don't think she wants to have any of these roles, but it would make for a bittersweet and ironic end.

It would be more fun for Arya to come into her own, and there is some symbolic support.

For what it's worth, I could see Aegon and Sansa on the throne if it exists, and Dany leaving them to it, to join Jon and Arya in the battle of the dawn. She's a rescuer not a ruler, but she has leadership abilities. Dany doesn't care for ceremonial.  She would need to slay a few self lies to abdicate to her "nephew", but who knows? And Jon has it in him to lead battles negotiate a peace accord.

Martin will probably choose something messy!

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, RevaM said:

-Sansa doesn't know any languages

-She doesn't know much faiths other than the seven and the old Gods

She can learn all of these things. she has an excellent memory. we know at eleven she was better at reading and writing than her older brothers.

 

1 hour ago, RevaM said:

she has never lived with commoners so therefore, she cannot relate to them

She has never lived with commoners but you don't have to live among them to care about them. Ned and Margaery are good examples.

 

1 hour ago, RevaM said:

she can't swim, nor has worked with her hands

she can't bid her wounds, can't fish, can't cook

She can sew. And she can learn to swim, fish, bid wounds and cook. these skills are not hard to learn.

 

1 hour ago, RevaM said:

she knows what its like to be afraid and hunted but not on the same level as Arya

She was a hostage in KL for two years always afraid of getting abused or even killed and now she is in hiding because she is wanted for regicide.

 

1 hour ago, RevaM said:

i'm not ignoring Sansa'a qualities, I'm simply pointing out the fact that she doesn't have many qualities of a queen/ruler. 

I see what you mean but I think She doesn't have many of these qualities because she has been never forced to learn them but she can learn them in a few months if need be.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

She can learn all of these things. she has an excellent memory. we know at eleven she was better at reading and writing than her older brothers.

 

She has never lived with commoners but you don't have to live among them to care about them. Ned and Margaery are good examples.

 

She can sew. And she can learn to swim, fish, bid wounds and cook. these skills are not hard to learn.

 

She was a hostage in KL for two years always afraid of getting abused or even killed and now she is in hiding because she is wanted for regicide.

 

I see what you mean but I think She doesn't have many of these qualities because she has been never forced to learn them but she can learn them in a few months if need be.

 

She won't have time to develop any o those either. But i hope you get that i don't hate Sansa, that is one of the worst things anyone can tell me cuz Sansa is bae. period.

But just because i love her as a character doesn't mean that i see her as a queen. But that's mainly because i think George intentionally named the dire wolves, because they literally can tell us the character's fate.  I think Sansa is going to be the "lady" she was always meant to be.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, RevaM said:

She won't have time to develop any o those either. But i hope you get that i don't hate Sansa, that is one of the worst things anyone can tell me cuz Sansa is bae. period.

I think she doesn't need much time to learn most of these skills.

And I know you don't hate her.;)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, winter daughter said:

But I think she doesn't need much time to learn most of these skills.

I know you don't hate her.;)

 

Oh believe me, as a person who has been swimming my entire life, i can tell you that she simply won't have time for swimming or any of that. I don't think during the last 2 books, those will be the things sansa will focus on XD.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, RevaM said:

Oh believe me, as a person who has been swimming my entire life, i can tell you that she simply won't have time for swimming or any of that. I don't think during the last 2 books, those will be the things sansa will focus on XD.

Sansa will focus on learning politics. her story has always been about politics.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why are people so insistent on Sansa becoming some big important figure in the story? It has been 5 books and compared to the rest of the Starks, excluding Rickon since he is just a child, she is just in the story. She betrayed her family and does nothing while held captive, then she escapes into the arms of someone else who is holding her captive and using her for his benefit.

Sansa is just such an irrelevant character for someone whose family is so relevant to the story. I don't care if she lives, but she should not be Lady of Winterfell and definitely not a queen.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Grrm sure loves to waste so many chapters on an irrelevant character and even goes as far as to include her in the top 6 main characters. What a troll! :rolleyes:

I believe sansa (and bran) is most likely to survive the series. I don't want a queen ending for her. She would make a perfect "Lady" though ;)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...