Sansas ending

[winter daughter]

2 minutes ago, Slowpoke Martin said:

Why are people so insistent on Sansa becoming some big important figure in the story?

Sansa is just such an irrelevant character for someone whose family is so relevant to the story.

"...She is beginning to at least try to understand how she can play the game of thrones and be not a piece but a player with her own goals and moving other pieces around... and she is not a warrior like Robb, Jon Snow. she is not even a wild child like Arya. she can't fight with swords, axes. she can't raise armies... but she has her wits the same as Littlefinger has."

GRRM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcjj0X6h6m0

 

5 minutes ago, Moonmoon said:

Grrm sure loves to waste so many chapters on an irrelevant character and even goes as far as to include her in the top 6 main characters. What a troll! 

8 minutes ago, Moonmoon said:

I believe sansa (and bran) is most likely to survive the series. I don't want a queen ending for her. She would make a perfect "Lady" though

 

 

[GhostNymeria]

1 hour ago, winter daughter said:

She can learn all of these things. she has an excellent memory. we know at eleven she was better at reading and writing than her older brothers.

 

She has never lived with commoners but you don't have to live among them to care about them. Ned and Margaery are good examples.

 

She can sew. And she can learn to swim, fish, bid wounds and cook. these skills are not hard to learn.

 

She was a hostage in KL for two years always afraid of getting abused or even killed and now she is in hiding because she is wanted for regicide.

 

I see what you mean but I think She doesn't have many of these qualities because she has been never forced to learn them but she can learn them in a few months if need be.

 

But GRRM never did have her learn these qualities though, while having other characters experience and learn them. If he's setting up someone as endgame ruler, then he wouldn't give that character a bunch of new skills at the last minute. He would start to set it up from the first book.

Great at reading and writing she is, but a good memory? On the contrary actually, she has the worst memory of all POVs. GRRM have purpousely made her misremembering several things. She misremembered the Hound's Unkiss, the incident at the Trident, the name of Joffrey's sword. There's probably more that I couldn't think of right now. GRRM has said her "memory lapses" (as he called them) are intentional and that it says something about her,  psychologically, as well as it's building up to something. He has also called her a unreliable narrator in relation to this.

There's no telling if Margaery genuinely cared for the common people, or did it to win their favour.

 

[Nevets]

7 hours ago, RevaM said:

But she doesn't fit Varys' criteria on how a perfect ruler should be like (and lets be real here, after all the shit that has happened in westeros+the future battle against the Others, Westeros will really need a good ruler)

Here is the Quote:

"Aegon has been shaped for rule before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them."

Besides from getting a noble lady's education, sansa doesn't have any of those qualities...(But Arya, on the other hand, does. But since this discussion is about Sansa, Im not going to say anything further)

And being a queen is just not part of her arc. Being a lady of winterfell/Vale, sure. I mean her dire wolf's name WAS Lady afterall. But a queen? nah...That's more Arya imho, she's a natural leader (sure she doesn't realizes that now but lets gives her some time for that)

And why is all this stuff essential for being a king/queen?  Because Varys says so??  Really?  I will admit that a lot of it would be useful, but Sansa has much of it.  She has the education, and has been afraid and hunted.  She also doesn't regard rulership as some sort of right where you can do whatever you want, but as more of a responsibility where you are responsible for the welfare of others.  

Just because she has never lived as a commoner (although she is currently living at a lower status than she is used to, which will help) shouldn't disqualify her.  As to all the stuff about living with fisherfolk, working with her hands, swimming, washing and mending clothes, etc., I don't see why that would be essential to ruling.  Useful, maybe.  Essential, hardly.  

I think Varys is trying to convince himself, Kevan, and anyone who is listening that Aegon is the best candidate.  Doesn't mean he is.  As for who will be queen/king, I expect that the regions will probably split off into their constituent parts and become independent kingdoms by the end.  The North and Dorne, certainly.  The other ones might, as well.  So there will likely be plenty of crowns to go around.

[Darksnider05]

1 hour ago, Moonmoon said:

Grrm sure loves to waste so many chapters on an irrelevant character and even goes as far as to include her in the top 6 main characters. What a troll! 

I believe sansa (and bran) is most likely to survive the series. I don't want a queen ending for her. She would make a perfect "Lady" though

 

Nothing was wasted her P.O.V is informative to what's going on in her location but that's about it.  

[winter daughter]

1 hour ago, GhostNymeria said:

Great at reading and writing she is, but a good memory? On the contrary actually, she has the worst memory of all POVs. GRRM have purpousely made her misremembering several things. She misremembered the Hound's Unkiss, the incident at the Trident, the name of Joffrey's sword

Actually it was Arya who misremembered the sword's name as "Lion's Paw".

"That's a lie!" Arya squirmed in Harwin's grip. "It was me. I hit Joffrey and threw Lion's Paw in the river. Mycah just ran away, like I told him."

And Sansa didn't misremembere the incident at the trident. she knew the truth but she lied because she didn't want to side with anyone. but later she told the truth to Olenna and Margaery.

"Joffrey is a monster. He lied about the butcher's boy and made Father kill my wolf. When I displease him, he has the Kingsguard beat me. He's evil and cruel, my lady, it's so. And the queen as well."

the only thing that she apparently misremembers is the unkiss and we don't know the reason yet. maybe because she was drunk that night and had a crush on Sandor so she romanticized their encounter.

 

1 hour ago, GhostNymeria said:

There's no telling if Margaery genuinely cared for the common people, or did it to win their favour.

It doesn't matter really. she is kind to them and they love her.

 

1 hour ago, GhostNymeria said:

But GRRM never did have her learn these qualities though, while having other characters experience and learn them. If he's setting up someone as endgame ruler, then he wouldn't give that character a bunch of new skills at the last minute. He would start to set it up from the first book.

I don't think she'll be queen. I think just because she can't do these stuff doesn't mean she'll be a terrible ruler.

 

38 minutes ago, Nevets said:

 As to all the stuff about living with fisherfolk, working with her hands, swimming, washing and mending clothes, etc., I don't see why that would be essential to ruling.  Useful, maybe.  Essential, hardly.

19 minutes ago, Darksnider05 said:

Nothing was wasted her P.O.V is informative to what's going on in her location but that's about it.  

George has said she is becoming a player and learning how to move other pieces around to achieve her own goals. she will not remain a pawn forever.

 

 

[GhostNymeria]

18 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

Actually it was Arya who misremembered the sword's name as "Lion's Paw".

"That's a lie!" Arya squirmed in Harwin's grip. "It was me. I hit Joffrey and threw Lion's Paw in the river. Mycah just ran away, like I told him."

And Sansa didn't misremembere the incident at the trident. she knew the truth but she lied because she didn't want to side with anyone. but later she told the truth to Olenna and Margaery.

"Joffrey is a monster. He lied about the butcher's boy and made Father kill my wolf. When I displease him, he has the Kingsguard beat me. He's evil and cruel, my lady, it's so. And the queen as well."

the only thing that she apparently misremembers is the unkiss and we don't know the reason yet. maybe because she was drunk that night and had a crush on Sandor so she romanticized their encounter.

It is Arya that misremembers Lion's paw, I stand corrected. I assumed it was Sansa because I was going by this interview: 

Quote

[GRRM is asked about Sansa misremembering the name of Joffrey's sword.]

GRRM: "The Lion's Paw / Lion's Tooth business, on the other hand, is intentional. A small touch of the unreliable narrator. I was trying to establish that the memories of my viewpoint characters are not infallible. Sansa is simply remembering it wrong. A very minor thing (you are the only one to catch it to date), but it was meant to set the stage for a much more important lapse in memory. You will see, in A STORM OF SWORDS and later volumes, that Sansa remembers the Hound kissing her the night he came to her bedroom... but if you look at the scene, he never does. That will eventually mean something, but just now it's a subtle touch, something most of the readers may not even pick up on." http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/SF_Targaryens_Valyria_Sansa_Martells_and_More

But since it actually is Arya's quote, It would actually seem like it is the interviewer and GRRM who is misremembering here 

He has also said this about her memory btw:

Quote

Inteviewer: "Here's a really particular question (which I realize means it probably won't get asked in a general interview): In A Storm of Swords, there is a chapter early on where Sansa is thinking back to the scene at the end of A Clash of Kings when The Hound came into her room during the battle. She thinks in the chapter about how he kissed her, but in the scene in A Clash of Kings, this actually didn't happen. Was that a typo or something?"

GRRM: "It's not a typo. It is something! [Laughs] ''Unreliable narrator'' is the key phrase there. The second scene is from Sansa's thoughts. And what does that reveal about her psychologically? I try to be subtle about these things."

Interviewer: "My question is - what do you think the significance of her memory lapses is?"

GRRM asks: "What does that reveal about her psychologically?" What do you think?"

 

[crowcrow]

6 hours ago, Nevets said:

And why is all this stuff essential for being a king/queen?  Because Varys says so??  Really?  I will admit that a lot of it would be useful, but Sansa has much of it.  She has the education, and has been afraid and hunted.  She also doesn't regard rulership as some sort of right where you can do whatever you want, but as more of a responsibility where you are responsible for the welfare of others.  

Just because she has never lived as a commoner (although she is currently living at a lower status than she is used to, which will help) shouldn't disqualify her.  As to all the stuff about living with fisherfolk, working with her hands, swimming, washing and mending clothes, etc., I don't see why that would be essential to ruling.  Useful, maybe.  Essential, hardly.  

I think Varys is trying to convince himself, Kevan, and anyone who is listening that Aegon is the best candidate.  Doesn't mean he is.  As for who will be queen/king, I expect that the regions will probably split off into their constituent parts and become independent kingdoms by the end.  The North and Dorne, certainly.  The other ones might, as well.  So there will likely be plenty of crowns to go around.

((She lives in a big fancy castle atm, wearing her aunt's old clothes... That doesn't count.))

I consider Varys' criteria important, well, because he's Varys and there is a reason why he made Aegon do all those things (fishing, living with commoners and so on)

I just think that this isn't where Sansa's story is heading,  i think she'll be perfect a lady of something like she was always meant to be.

[crowcrow]

10 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

If the Iron Throne ends up being a constitional monarchy of sorts, then Sansa as queen would have to be good at ceremonial functions, and have heirs. Check. Queen Victoria had less going for her than Sansa. Elizabeth ll has been a conscientious and dutiful queen, in a hereditary figurehead role. If she had more power, then Sansa would have to choose excellent advisors, like Elizabeth l did. If Sansa is a queen consort, then she has the chops. I don't think she wants to have any of these roles, but it would make for a bittersweet and ironic end.

It would be more fun for Arya to come into her own, and there is some symbolic support.

For what it's worth, I could see Aegon and Sansa on the throne if it exists, and Dany leaving them to it, to join Jon and Arya in the battle of the dawn. She's a rescuer not a ruler, but she has leadership abilities. Dany doesn't care for ceremonial.  She would need to slay a few self lies to abdicate to her "nephew", but who knows? And Jon has it in him to lead battles negotiate a peace accord.

Martin will probably choose something messy!

 

 

The problem is that Aegon is most likely fake so i don't see that happening either 

but i like your idea about how the things will go. (and i really don't like dany, and i don't want to see her on the throne)

[crowcrow]

7 hours ago, Moonmoon said:

Grrm sure loves to waste so many chapters on an irrelevant character and even goes as far as to include her in the top 6 main characters. What a troll! 

I believe sansa (and bran) is most likely to survive the series. I don't want a queen ending for her. She would make a perfect "Lady" though

 

agreed.

[Moonmoon]

19 hours ago, Darksnider05 said:

Nothing was wasted her P.O.V is informative to what's going on in her location but that's about it.  

In your opinion. I can say the same for other characters too! Every pov serves to tell us what's going on in their locations.

Sansa is being mentored by the series' mastermind and as winter daughter said grrm himself hinted at sansa's shift from a pawn to a player. Sansa doesn't have magical powers so its obvious her role will be more in the political side of the story. 

[Nevets]

12 hours ago, RevaM said:

((She lives in a big fancy castle atm, wearing her aunt's old clothes... That doesn't count.))

I consider Varys' criteria important, well, because he's Varys and there is a reason why he made Aegon do all those things (fishing, living with commoners and so on)

I just think that this isn't where Sansa's story is heading,  i think she'll be perfect a lady of something like she was always meant to be.

And we are to consider Varys to be the ultimate authority on such matters?  George delights in giving us unreliable narrators, so I am wary of taking any analysis of this nature purely at face value.  It is certainly useful, both as an insight into Varys's thought processes, and as a starting point for further analysis.  But, to be honest, I trust Varys about as far as I can throw him.  Which, since he is described as fat, and is fictional to boot, isn't very far.

[crowcrow]

On April 28, 2017 at 10:56 PM, Nevets said:

And we are to consider Varys to be the ultimate authority on such matters?  George delights in giving us unreliable narrators, so I am wary of taking any analysis of this nature purely at face value.  It is certainly useful, both as an insight into Varys's thought processes, and as a starting point for further analysis.  But, to be honest, I trust Varys about as far as I can throw him.  Which, since he is described as fat, and is fictional to boot, isn't very far.

Varys is Varys. While he isn't a God or an ultimate authority, we can all agree he knows more than us readers(and other characters) and he also knows what he's doing.

There is a REASON why he made Aegon do all those stuff. Why couldn't he just send him to live in some fancy palace in Essos like he did with Dany and Viserys? Or why didn't he send Aegon to them? 

In his opinion, a perfect ruler should have all of the qualities that he has mentioned to Kevan. 

And this isn't the only reason why i think Sansa won't be a queen. As i said, her direwolf's name is Lady and Martin named the direwolves like that on purpose. The names of the direwolves reflect their owners' fate/future.

[UnFit Finlay]

On 24/04/2017 at 11:48 PM, Lisula said:

Actually I can see her doing just that; Sweet Robin has the potential to become a monster, resuming where Joffrey left off. If he ordered the death of a Stark, I believe she would stand by while Baelish fed SR too much calming medicine, despite the maester's warning. It is, after all, exactly how SR's father, Arryn died. It only needs an accomplice to distract the resident maester. 

(Yes, possibly I've been reading too many murder mysteries while we await TWOW.)

That would also give Sansa a hold over Baelish, as if she ever told the Lords of the Vale what he had done, they would execute him for it. She might even betray Baelish thus, and proceed to marry Harry the Heir afterwards... Jon could have Winterfell and Sansa the Vale. 

 

Sorry for the late response but, nah. Robert's a spoiled brat but he's still just a scared little boy. I think the potential of him being Joffrey flew out out the moon door with Lysa. I can't see Sansa thinking "He's a monster. We need to kill him for the greater good" when he's crawling into her bed because he misses his mother, which is something I'm sure Sansa can relate to.

I suppose I just don't read Sansa as a political schemer as such. I think she just wants to be safe. She just doesn't seem nearly cold hearted enough to allow the death of a small boy, who loves and trusts her, for her own gain.

Besides, it doesn't give her much of a hold over Littlefinger at all. It's more mutually assured destruction and, even then, Sansa has a lot more to lose than Baelish. He's only Lord Protector while Robert is alive and would probably head to the Riverlands if Harry becomes Lord. He's also got the support of the Lannisters and the Tyrells and could simply deny any allegations from the Vale that Sansa and Alayne were the same person. Meanwhile Sansa would be on her own, in the Vale, wanted for regicide, and admitting her involvement in killing their Lord.

[Mladen]

On 4/28/2017 at 0:16 AM, Darksnider05 said:

Nothing was wasted her P.O.V is informative to what's going on in her location but that's about it.  

Except the fact that opinion would count for something if Sansa was the only POV in King's Landing at any given point. She wasn't. In the first book, we had Ned and Arya, in second and third book we have Tyrion. Thinking about one of the major characters as just an "informative POV" is rather missing a bunch of things happening in it. 

 

On 5/16/2017 at 0:10 PM, UnFit Finlay said:

I suppose I just don't read Sansa as a political schemer as such. I think she just wants to be safe. She just doesn't seem nearly cold hearted enough to allow the death of a small boy, who loves and trusts her, for her own gain.

Nor she is. Sansa is a pupil, a student, someone on learning curve. We know Martin does consider her wits matching LF's which tells a lot. Being a schemer doesn't always necessarily mean being cold-hearted monster. There are many ways Game can be played. 

[Luddagain]

I do not think we really know what Sansa's future will be. Indeed I think that like Jon and Robb she will have to make a choice between honour or her personal interests. It will probably involve sweet Robin.

There are signals for her being honourable and brave and others signalling coldness and self interest. I do not know which path GRRM intends for her. I think she will need a wolf!!!! to allow return to home and family (and goodness/honour)

[lomiller]

2 hours ago, Luddagain said:

I do not think we really know what Sansa's future will be. Indeed I think that like Jon and Robb she will have to make a choice between honour or her personal interests. It will probably involve sweet Robin.

There are signals for her being honourable and brave and others signalling coldness and self interest. I do not know which path GRRM intends for her. I think she will need a wolf!!!! to allow return to home and family (and goodness/honour)

She won't get another wolf, she already has a blind dog.  This fits her well, because she is also blind to what goes on around her.

[The Fattest Leech]

18 minutes ago, lomiller said:

She won't get another wolf, she already has a blind dog.  This fits her well, because she is also blind to what goes on around her.

All of the kids have a "blindness" in their arc. It is part of their individualized training the author has set up for them. 

Arya is blind in Bravvos. 

Bran is blind in the cave. 

Even Jon has a moment of blindness before his realization that the wildlings are not the enemy. 

Rickon will be the high savior and king anyway, so 

 

[Prof. Cecily]

On 4/27/2017 at 11:20 PM, GhostNymeria said:

...Great at reading and writing she is, but a good memory? On the contrary actually, she has the worst memory of all POVs. GRRM have purpousely made her misremembering several things. She misremembered the Hound's Unkiss, the incident at the Trident, the name of Joffrey's sword. There's probably more that I couldn't think of right now. GRRM has said her "memory lapses" (as he called them) are intentional and that it says something about her,  psychologically, as well as it's building up to something. He has also called her a unreliable narrator in relation to this.

 

 

You might be thinking of the ending of Sansa IV in AGOT, after having written that infamous letter under duress (well, facing the threat of not being considered a suitable candidate for marriage to Joff)

Quote

Jeyne Poole and all her things were gone when Ser Mandon Moore returned Sansa to the high tower of Maegor's Holdfast. No more weeping, she thought gratefully. Yet somehow it seemed colder with Jeyne gone, even after she'd built a fire. She pulled a chair close to the hearth, took down one of her favorite books, and lost herself in the stories of Florian and Jonquil, of Lady Shella and the Rainbow Knight, of valiant Prince Aemon and his doomed love for his brother's queen.

It was not until later that night, as she was drifting off to sleep, that Sansa realized she had forgotten to ask about her sister.

 

On 5/19/2017 at 0:30 AM, Risto said:

 

...We know Martin does consider her wits matching LF's which tells a lot. Being a schemer doesn't always necessarily mean being cold-hearted monster. There are many ways Game can be played. 

Now that is most interesting. Could you shout me a link for where GRRM says that, please?

 

 

 

 

 

[Lifestream]

Sansa has actually been very instrumental in many events of the books. I also find it funny when some haters call her useless, but then are quick to point out how evil she is by calling it her fault that Ned died. So which is it? Does she bring anything to the story or is she completely passive?

 

Anyway, while Sansa isn't not the sole person to blame for Ned's capture, she is a factor. Sansa isntead of passively accepting Ned's orders, decides to take action and tells Cirsei that she was supposed to leave and probably gives a lot of info regarding Ned. (I think even GRMM doesn't absolve Sansa of that but he does say that she was not the sole factor).

 

Sansa is also involved in Joffrey's murder. might be she didn't plan it but she pretty much carried the murder weapon and made it all possible. If she hadn't, might be Joffrey had lived (unless LF and the Tyrells had plan B and C etc.)

 

Sansa established a bond with the Hound that later resulted in him making sure Arya survived for while they were together. While Sansa's influence here isn't as direct as above, it is undeniable. The Hound's plans are to ransom Arya and join the Starks. After the Red Wedding though he's still traveling with Arya despite not being quite able to ransom her anymore (he does say so).

 

Also it remains to be seen if Sandor comes back. Maybe their relationship can still influence some of the plot.

 

Also she's with LF. one of the biggest if not THE biggest plot advancer there is in the books. If she manages to kill him, or even thwart some of his plans, then ya she makes her presence once more felt. This too remains to be seen.

 

On topic now, I am personally not thrilled by Tyrion and Sansa ending up together but I can see that it might be in the end. Though currently both have hostile feelings towards each other (Tyrion thinks Sansa is behind Joffrey;s death and has knowingly framed him and Sansa has gotten LF's version of events surrounding Tyrion's first wife Tysha. On top of that Sansa made sure not to trust Tyrion cause he is a Lannister)

 

I also find it hypocritical that people want Sansa to learn her "lesson" and give a chance to the uglies (mostly Tyrion) when tyrion only goes out beautiful women making him just as shallow as people blame Sansa to be. Regardless, I am a SanSan supporter and even if that is not possible, Sansa has already being understanding and empathetic towards an ugly character who happens to be Sandor. So she has proven herself for the most part and I can't see how people keep missing that. (She's even admitted his face isn't even the worst part guys)

 

I don't think there is much future for her and Harry the Heir. But the lords of the Vale are Stark supporters, so I do believe if they found out her identity they would ally with her if she gave them war (Lysa wouldn't let them join Robb, probably on LF's advice and her own fear and paranoia). Plus Harry is their pawn. I don't think LF will in the end allow it come to fruition. But Sansa can't really get married as Sansa Stark at the moment. Not until Tyrion dies or she annuls her marriage AS Sansa Stark. Which isn't safe at the moment. So unless HtH gets married to her as Alayne Stone/Baelish, which doesn't make the marriage legitimate. (Unless she's never able to go back to Sansa Stark)

 

I personally think Sansa's journey is that of regaining the identity (her Stark side) people have been denying her. I don't think she's willingly denied it, but people have one way or another. Lady's execution in my opinion symbolizes that. The same with people comparing her to Catelyn and especially Lysa and Petyr sort of equating her with her mother. Of course Alayne is also another way of denying Sansa her Stark identity (though perhaps a "necessary" action after she's been put in such a helpless position by LF).

 

So for me the ideal ending would be Sansa re-uniting with her family and going back to WF. This time though embracing her Stark identity, her family and the knowledge, experience and wisdom she gained from all of these events. I would like it if GRMM could also write Sandor into her life, but if not possible I wouldn't mind if she ended up single but alongside her family, or married with someone she loves and treats her well.

 

I could also be wrong of course and Sansa Stark never makes an appearance again, because there's only Alaynne Stone left now.

Quote

[Will Sandor and Sansa meet?]

Why, the Hound is dead, and Sansa may be dead as well. There's only Alayne Stone.

 

[Mladen]

2 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Now that is most interesting. Could you shout me a link for where GRRM says that, please?