Jump to content

Sansas ending


The Exiled Septa

Recommended Posts

12 hours ago, Risto said:

 

Thanks so much for the video. I'm glad to have heard that!

Unless I'm mistaken, he says Sansa has her wits, just as Littlefinger has.

That is to say, neither start off with have anything but their wits.

I don't seee it as comparing the level of wits of the two characters, but I could be wrong about that. 

In any case, Sansa also has her beauty and high birth, two advantages LF lacks, depending on your taste, of course.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Unless I'm mistaken, he says Sansa has her wits, just as Littlefinger has.

He explicitly says that she is becoming a player, and to precisely quote him "she has wits, same as Littlefinger has"

That speaks a lot, even if not comparing the two of them, that Sansa is able to create quite the havoc for LF.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lot's of interesting thoughts here.

I have wondered about Tyrion and Sansa at times in the past as well. Certainly, she seems to be involved in a Beauty and the Beast theme in ASOIAF. I feel a pull between Sansa and Tyrion consummating their unlikely marriage, as has been hinted at, or the opposite. I feel it's more likely that they will end up as enemies. They both have changed a lot since they parted. Tyrion has not become a kinder soul, for certain, and Sansa is learning Littlefinger's craft. I feel that sets them up more apart then they were before both Sansa and Tyrion fled Kings Landing.

Now, I do see the whole Beauty and the Beast idea that GRRM seems to be playing with in Sansa's story. She is lovely beyond measure and many people note it. She has interactions with Tyrion and the Hound, both men who could be described as displeasing to look at, and could be beastly in physical form. In character, the Hound seems to have turned his life away from beastly behavior, while Tyrion seems to be moving toward embracing in inner Tywin. 

But I wonder sometimes, seeing that Sansa has the potential to develop into a combination of Cersei and Littlefinger, that possibly she is the beast in her own story, and not the beauty at all. I think that is the kind of twist that GRRM could develop for Sansa.

On 4/3/2017 at 5:56 AM, Vaedys Targaryen said:

I for some reason believe that Sansa will have something to do with the Mountain Clans/Widlings in the Vale.

We know that since Timmet son of Timmet has returned to the Vale, the Mountain Clans, specifically the Burned Men, are better armed and bolder than ever. What's to stop Timmet from attacking the Gates of the Moon and maybe meeting and recognise Sansa? Maybe he will take her and make her his wife?

I think there is a strong possibility for this as well. Timett, with his burned eye, which Sansa of the first novel might have been repulsed by, but by Dance, the Sansa/Alayne we see, might not be nearly so focused on that disfigurement. Sansa does seem to have a  Beauty and the Beast theme going on. Timett is amassing a large amount of strength in the Vale, and we know he is not afraid, either of battle or burning his own eye out, and with winter coming, and not a lot to lose, Timett and the Burned Men could very easily be moved to attack the strength of the Vale. I see it more likely it would be a kidnapping of a sort, that Timett recognizes Sansa for who she is (Timett spent time around Tyrion and Sansa in Kings Landing), both as a Stark by blood and a Lannister by marriage, and he would have a huge bargaining piece in his hand if Timett could capture Sansa. I doubt he would be thinking marriage as much as ransom, at least at first. Timett could also be a legal claimant to the Vale, set to inherit before Harry the Heir, which would be interesting, although I doubt it could be proved. I don't know that at the end of this story, that proper inheritance laws will be the reason areas are commanded by certain people, but by strength and cunning.

On 4/3/2017 at 6:53 AM, Widowmaker 811 said:

I do not believe she will become the lady of Casterly Rock.  Tyrion's appearance is just too much of a turn-off for Sansa and I think that part of her will not change.  She will make the wrong choice over and over again.  She won't be queen.  Not queen of the seven kingdoms and not queen of the north.  

It would be hugely ironic if Tyrion and Sansa's marriage played out with Sansa getting Casterly Rock. After all, her marriage to Tyrion was a ploy on Tywin's part, to put Winterfell into Lannister hands through marriage. The irony comes into play, when it is Sansa who will claim the Rock away from the Lannisters in the marriage trap that Tywin had designed for her and the Starks. It has a beauty and justice to it, but I am not sure that GRRM has that in the plans. It might be too predictable.

On 4/4/2017 at 10:22 AM, Byfort of Corfe said:

Besides, does anyone really want Sansa to wind up with multi-murderer Tyrion?  He murdered Shae in cold blood and why?  Because she had moved on to another customer.  In his own mind I think that Tyrion sees himself as acting nobly, merely taking revenge on those who have wronged him, but is he really that noble?

This. Tyrion is not a very good person. Now, he is wise in some ways (well-read, smart, and a thinker), and terribly stupid about others (women and wine), but he is not a very good person to start with, and becomes much darker as his character progresses. I think he is given a chance to change, or be better, in his dealings with Penny, but I think he will ultimately fail, and become a true dark and devious person, worse maybe than Tywin ever could have been. Tyrion is a very interesting character to watch develop but I think he will ultimately become one of the worst people in Westeros. He certainly has potential.

I think Sansa has this potential as well, but I think she will take a different path. I think her time as Alayne has hopefully made her more considerate to and of others. Certainly, Sansa started as pretty self-centered, but I think treatment in Kingls Landing after Ned's death and her fall to bastard status in the Vale has been an eye opener for her. Whether she lives or dies at the end, or rules a kingdom or joins the silent sisters, Sansa is an important character. Not always likable, but she learns and we learn through her!

As for Tyrion and Sansa together, if that happens again, I think it will be  because they are trying to outplay one another, for their own respective goals, and not to make the kingdom strong and stable. One of them will not survive the game they play, if that is the case.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Risto said:

He explicitly says that she is becoming a player, and to precisely quote him "she has wits, same as Littlefinger has"

That speaks a lot, even if not comparing the two of them, that Sansa is able to create quite the havoc for LF.

I'm not quite sure I follow your logic- in any event I am sure GRRM will have plenty of surprises for us in the next two books.

Was Tyrion's first marriage ever anulled?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

I'm not quite sure I follow your logic- in any event I am sure GRRM will have plenty of surprises for us in the next two books.

Was Tyrion's first marriage ever anulled?

 

I am sure Tywin "anulled" it, but officially I don't think it was. Since you need the High Septon or a Council of Faith to set aside marriages.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

57 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

I am sure Tywin "anulled" it, but officially I don't think it was. Since you need the High Septon or a Council of Faith to set aside marriages.

As efficiently as he skins a deer, no doubt.

Still, at the end of the scene the deer remained half-skinned.

It would be note-worthy if that half-finished business doesn't provide some bitter-sweetness to the ending of the saga, either book or show or both.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The lesson Tywin made of Tysha for Tyrion was that he was a Lannister and can't marry a lowborn. So if Tysha is to come back around again it'd be fitting for it come under this theme.

So imagine Tyrion regaining a high standing in Westeros, he'll be king but you all haven't bought that yet so imagine him Dany's hand or Lord of Casterly Rock or whatever. Now consider Tysha popping her head up, after Tyrion sits his high seat (Sansa beside him). We've got the situation Tywin was warding Tyrion from.

Tyrion can hold high office and hold to his highborn suitable wife OR he can have Tysha. He can't have both, the Hand of the King, Lord of Casterly Rock or King on the IT can't marry a commoner. So which way do you think Tyrion would roll? It's the same question GRRM has been teasing all through Tyrion's arc, is he really Tywin's son?

Helping him on the way to his decision, Tysha has not likely had a kind decade or whatever it is past. She's not like to be the same sweet young'un she was.

If she pops her head up again, it's for Tyrion to deny their marriage and prove himself the scoundrel. As GRRM says, his favourite villain. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

*dons tinfoil hat* Alright, let's do this!

First thing's first, I don't think Sansa wants to be a queen at this point. She was raised to be a noble lady, so she's resigned to that, but even with her wits and cunning, I think Sansa want to be safe and loved more than in power. She certainly doesn't want to go back to King's Landing.

That being said, KL will probably be exactly where she ends up by the end of of TWOW. Whether it's by means of Shadrich's kidnapping or something else, I don't know, but I imagine she'll be brought before the Iron Throne. . . which is now occupied by Aegon, with Arianne at his side. The young, impulsive, and somewhat vain Aegon will see Sansa, one of the most striking women in Westeros, and decide that it's time for history to repeat itself. After all, he's the second conqueror of House Targaryen, so why not take two wives, as the original Aegon did? For the readers, it will be like Rhaegar/Elia/Lyanna all over again. . . only Aegon isn't Rhaegar, Arianne isn't the docile Elia, and Sansa isn't the headstrong and somewhat naive Lyanna. Arianne will be furious, but unable to do anything about it, and Sansa won't be pleased, either: she does not want to be a king's pawn again, especially not to another pretty teenage king with an enlarged ego.

Harry will probably die trying to rescue Sansa, or even in some sort of trial by combat for her hand. Aegon will prefer Sansa, just as Rhaegar preferred Lyanna, but it will too late for Arianne and the rest of Dorne to back out now. And yet, I still don't see Sansa genuinely falling in love with the boy. She'll be grateful to have survived, but not to be a royal sister-wife. I can only hope she manages to escape King's Landing before Dany unleashes the dragons.

*removes tinfoil* Well, that was fun! All in all, I want to see Sansa survive, with both her newfound shrewdness and the kind heart, that made her fans fall in love with her in the first place, still intact. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/22/2017 at 11:09 AM, St Daga said:

It would be hugely ironic if Tyrion and Sansa's marriage played out with Sansa getting Casterly Rock.

Sansa has no claim to Casterly Rock unless she bears Tyrion an heir. Given that she finds him hideous, that is unlikely to happen. However, even that theoretical heir would not get Casterly Rock, because Tyrion is an attainted traitor. If Tyrion has been stripped of his right to Casterly Rock by virtue of his kingslaying, then presumably any children he had with Sansa would be unable to inherit as well.

 

Quote

As for Tyrion and Sansa together, if that happens again, I think it will be  because they are trying to outplay one another, for their own respective goals, and not to make the kingdom strong and stable. One of them will not survive the game they play, if that is the case.

Tyrion and Sansa ever returning to their marriage is extremely unlikely. Not impossible--I don't think anything is impossible in ASOIAF unless the character in question is confirmed dead--but highly unlikely. Sansa finds Tyrion repulsive, Tyrion doesn't care about Sansa. They'd both be perfectly happy never to see each other ever again.

 

On 5/22/2017 at 10:02 AM, Risto said:

He explicitly says that she is becoming a player, and to precisely quote him "she has wits, same as Littlefinger has"

That speaks a lot, even if not comparing the two of them, that Sansa is able to create quite the havoc for LF.

Not "she has wits," but "she has her wits."

"She's not a warrior like Robb, Jon Snow. She's not even a wild child like Arya. She can't fight with swords, axes, she can't raise armies...but she has her wits, same as Littlefinger has."

Basically, he's saying that because she can't fight and she's not a warrior, all she has is her wits, just like Littlefinger, who's no warrior, either. It wasn't some endorsement of her intelligence, it was just stating that that's all she has to use, much like Littlefinger.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Newstar said:

Sansa has no claim to Casterly Rock unless she bears Tyrion an heir. Given that she finds him hideous, that is unlikely to happen.

Barbrey Ryswell Dustin has claim to Barrowton as the widow of Lord Dustin and she bore him no heirs. Donella Manderly Hornwood becomes the effective heir of House Hornwood after her the death of her husband and son, and Ramsay Snow is able to marry her (by force) and claim her lands. Atypical inheritance situations do arise in the story.

16 hours ago, Newstar said:

However, even that theoretical heir would not get Casterly Rock, because Tyrion is an attainted traitor.

Gregor Clegane was attainted and all his lands stripped from him by Ned until  they were given back to him by Joffrey. It all depends who is in power and sits the Iron Throne. Someone could easily award Tyrion back his rights and the Lordship of Casterly Rock.

17 hours ago, Newstar said:

If Tyrion has been stripped of his right to Casterly Rock by virtue of his kingslaying, then presumably any children he had with Sansa would be unable to inherit as well.

 

I agree that there a lot of if's that need to work out to make this possible. however, lot's of things can and probably will change in a hurry in the Seven Kingdoms. I stand by my statement that it would be very ironic if the events that Tywin set into action to put Winterfell into Lannister hands backfired and Casterly Rock ended up in Stark hands.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/22/2017 at 7:25 PM, Prof. Cecily said:

Was Tyrion's first marriage ever anulled?

It is a bit sketchy and depends upon interpretation --- when Tyrion is talking with Shea Tyrion says the marriage was undone according to the septons.

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion X

Words he had never meant to speak came tumbling out of him like mummers from a hollow horse. "When I was thirteen, I wed a crofter's daughter. Or so I thought her. I was blind with love for her, and thought she felt the same for me, but my father rubbed my face in the truth. My bride was a whore Jaime had hired to give me my first taste of manhood." And I believed all of it, fool that I was.

"To drive the lesson home, Lord Tywin gave my wife to a barracks of his guardsmen to use as they pleased, and commanded me to watch." And to take her one last time, after the rest were done. One last time, with no trace of love or tenderness remaining. "So you will remember her as she truly is," he said, and I should have defied him, but my cock betrayed me, and I did as I was bid.

"After he was done with her, my father had the marriage undone. It was as if we had never been wed, the septons said."

 

Like I said it is a bit sketchy as to whether Tyrion was present when the marriage was undone or whether it was something he was told. Either way Tyrion seems to think the marriage undone (?) annulled.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

It is a bit sketchy and depends upon interpretation --- when Tyrion is talking with Shea Tyrion says the marriage was undone according to the septons.

Like I said it is a bit sketchy as to whether Tyrion was present when the marriage was undone or whether it was something he was told. Either way Tyrion seems to think the marriage undone (?) annulled.

Thank you for hunting down the answer to that question.

I'll take that as definitive. 

 

I hope our Alayne can keep Harry the Heir at bay- being accused of being an adulteress would complicate matters.

Hmmm. Or threatened with such an accusation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

It is a bit sketchy and depends upon interpretation --- when Tyrion is talking with Shea Tyrion says the marriage was undone according to the septons.

Like I said it is a bit sketchy as to whether Tyrion was present when the marriage was undone or whether it was something he was told. Either way Tyrion seems to think the marriage undone (?) annulled.

GRRM wrote himself into a corner with the Tysha marriage and his annulment procedure, since he set up a complicated Westeros annulment procedure to keep Sansa in her current marriage to Tyrion and delay a marriage to Harry the Heir (presumably for plot reasons), but fans have reasoned rightly that by that same token, Tywin couldn't have annulled previous Tyrion's marriage to Tysha as easily as Tyrion seemed to think, and that therefore Tyrion may still be in fact legally wed to Tysha despite believing otherwise.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Newstar said:

GRRM wrote himself into a corner with the Tysha marriage and his annulment procedure, since he set up a complicated Westeros annulment procedure to keep Sansa in her current marriage to Tyrion and delay a marriage to Harry the Heir (presumably for plot reasons), but fans have reasoned rightly that by that same token, Tywin couldn't have annulled previous Tyrion's marriage to Tysha as easily as Tyrion seemed to think, and that therefore Tyrion may still be in fact legally wed to Tysha despite believing otherwise.

Perhaps.

 

 

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion IV

"She is old enough to be Lady of Winterfell once her brother is dead.

Claim her maidenhood and you will be one step closer to claiming the north.

Get her with child, and the prize is all but won.

Do I need to remind you that a marriage that has not been consummated can be set aside?"

"By the High Septon or a Council of Faith.

Our present High Septon is a trained seal who barks prettily on command. Moon Boy is more like to annul my marriage than he is."


 

As I said, Tyrion’s remark to Shea about Tysha & his annulment is sketchy and open to interpretation. More importantly a poster asked a question that I tried to provide a textual answer to without bias.

Lady Sansa Lannister has a different set of problems. First of which is she is a fugitive with a price on her head due to her presumed part in the death of King Joffrey.

I the reader know that Sansa & Tyrion did not consummate their marriage.

As it stands the Lannister’s are still in charge of the Iron Throne which is the seat of power in Westeros.

I know what a High Septon is. I’m unsure what a Council of Faith is.

My way of thinking is that until the Lannister’s are usurped Sansa is a fugitive in hiding. I am more interested in the wheeling & dealing that surround Sansa. The Mad Mouse has found his target. Brienne could not.

Notice that the above quote happens before the Red Wedding. The Lannister’s married Sansa to Tyrion because Sansa told Dontos (LF’s lackey) and Dontos told LF and LF told Lannister that the Tyrell’s were planning to whisk Sansa away to Highgarden.

Plots, plots and more plots.  I have no idea what Sansa’s fate is. In other words, I have no idea where Martin is going to take the story.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...