Sansas ending

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

This is the SSM from Balticon in which he says the outline is not  something to guide where we think the story will go. 

Quote

 He then said that he is not good with writing outlines, making book deadlines, and that often in outlines he was "making shit up", and "characters changed along the way". Side note: I know he said other things in past interviews, so interpret this as you will. * “quoted” words are his words exactly.

1

And this is from the same SSM

He went straight from talking about the references in the actual books, to the "differences" in the outline from then to now. He did say that he still knows who sits the iron throne and the end game of the main 5, but also included Sansa, but did not give any details (for obvious reasons).

It seems quite clear from these two accounts that the original outline is no longer particularly relevant and that some characters have changed greatly since then, hell some didn't even exist in it! And that Sansa's role has changed significantly to the point she is now included in the "Big" characters. 

To try to dismiss her as unimportant, is character bais. 

[Byfort of Corfe]

58 minutes ago, Newstar said:

 

To me, that premise is flawed. Why would Tyrion want anything to do with Sansa? This is the same guy who murdered the last woman who betrayed him, and who spent ADWD brooding on how Tysha was the only one who loved him and how all other women were false bitches. If he wants anyone, it's Tysha, and whores will do in the meantime.

Even if Tyrion could swallow his own anger at Sansa to attempt a reunion for purely mercenary reasons, he was only tempted to marry Sansa because it might get him Winterfell, and he was only interested in Winterfell as a consolation prize because he believed he'd never get Casterly Rock. Well, now Tywin is dead, so it's open season on Casterly Rock as far as Tyrion is concerned, which is fine by him because it's what he really wanted in the first place. Even if he were still interested in Winterfell, at some point it's going to come out that Robb disinherited Sansa precisely so that Tyrion could never get Winterfell, so that would be the end of that.

And on the very remote possibility that Tyrion would get over his anger at Sansa and the fact that she was no longer heir to Winterfell, Tyrion would be unlikely to forget that he hated being married to Sansa. As much as he admired and lusted after Sansa's beauty, he tired pretty quickly of her shit. When Tyrion simmers down about the whole Sansa leaving him to die in KL business, he'll probably be grateful that Sansa is no longer his problem. 

 

Good points, as GRRM points out people want Winterfell, not Sansa.  Tywin makes that plain to Tyrion and Tyrion even repeats something similar to Bronn.  Tyrion is still obsessed with Tysha or perhaps with the fantasy of Tysha, so obsessed that he kills his father because of it.  Tyrion is going after women who cannot refuse him, or more importantly the money he pays them to be around him.  Sure Tyrion lusts after Sansa but at the end of the day he can't bring himself to actually "have" her which I think has a lot more to do with Tyrion not really being able to have a normal relationship because of his self-loathing.  Does he really think that Shae "loves" him? 

Besides, does anyone really want Sansa to wind up with multi-murderer Tyrion?  He murdered Shae in cold blood and why?  Because she had moved on to another customer.  In his own mind I think that Tyrion sees himself as acting nobly, merely taking revenge on those who have wronged him, but is he really that noble?

[winter daughter]

43 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

It seems quite clear from these two accounts that the original outline is no longer particularly relevant and that some characters have changed greatly since then, hell some didn't even exist in it! And that Sansa's role has changed significantly to the point she is now included in the "Big" characters. 

Absolutely agreed.

And this is from his blog:

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...That picture was taken just a few weeks after I blew my first (bot not my last, oh no) deadline on the series. Ah, how innocent I was... little did that guy in the picture imagine that he would be spending most of the next two decades in the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros with Tyrion, Daenerys, Arya, Sansa, Jon Snow, Bran, and all the rest.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/496185.html

He has included her among the big 5.

I think it's safe to say that she is now one of the main characters.

 

 

 

[Byfort of Corfe]

28 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

Absolutely agreed.

And this is from his blog:

He has included her among the big 5.

I think it's safe to say that she is now one of the main characters.

 

 

 

I would agree.

[Newstar]

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

It seems quite clear from these two accounts that the original outline is no longer particularly relevant and that some characters have changed greatly since then, hell some didn't even exist in it! And that Sansa's role has changed significantly to the point she is now included in the "Big" characters. 

To try to dismiss her as unimportant, is character [bias]. 

How is that clear? GRRM has also said that he never planned on the outline being leaked. GRRM jealously guards the secrets of future plots, as he should. You think that if the outline is leaked spoiling the survival of five characters that he's going to proceed to spoil his own novels by admitting that it was correct? Saying that he was "making shit up" to downplay the outline is a wise move, but given the circumstances, I think taking it at face value is foolish.

The outline also corresponds to the first few books in many respects (Tyrion forced into exile, Winterfell getting burned down, etc.), so even if he was "making shit up" as he claimed, that "shit" bore a close resemblance to what ASOIAF became.

Before the outline leaked, when GRRM had no idea that it would see the light of day during his lifetime, GRRM said that he had had the broad strokes of the ending all along, since 1991 in fact. Since the outline was written in 1993, two years after GRRM came up with the ending, either he had a story in mind but made up some fake shit specifically for the outline, or that the outline is not, in fact, "made up shit."

As for Sansa, long before the outline leaked, GRRM admitted that he came up with Sansa because the members of the Stark family were getting along too well. That alone should be a big tell as to Sansa's relative importance in the grand scheme of things.

If GRRM was planning on killing Sansa off earlier on, which the outline suggests, even if he changed his mind about it later, it would still rule her out of the running for ruler of Winterfell or for queen, since he would have had to figure out who got Winterfell and the throne in the Sansa-less ending he originally conceived, and those decisions would have formed part of the original ending he claims to have kept the same since 1991.

 

49 minutes ago, Byfort of Corfe said:

Besides, does anyone really want Sansa to wind up with multi-murderer Tyrion?  He murdered Shae in cold blood and why?  Because she had moved on to another customer.  In his own mind I think that Tyrion sees himself as acting nobly, merely taking revenge on those who have wronged him, but is he really that noble?

Tyrion may be a terrible person, but Sansa has shown herself fairly morally flexible when it comes to men; she quite likes Littlefinger despite having seen him murder her aunt and have other people murdered, and she fantasizes about the Hound even though he killed children and bragged about it. I think for Sansa the main impediment is Tyrion's looks, not his moral character.

 

40 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

Absolutely agreed.

And this is from his blog:

He has included her among the big 5.

I think it's safe to say that she is now one of the main characters.

Again, given the context, more than a grain of salt is warranted. GRRM knows that the fandom is talking about the outline and the "big five," and he's trying to convince us that Sansa is just as important as the other five, even though the outline says otherwise. I applaud the effort, but I am not so easily fooled.

[Byfort of Corfe]

2 minutes ago, Newstar said:

 

 

Tyrion may be a terrible person, but Sansa has shown herself fairly morally flexible when it comes to men; she quite likes Littlefinger despite having seen him murder her aunt and have other people murdered, and she fantasizes about the Hound even though he killed children and bragged about it. I think for Sansa the main impediment is Tyrion's looks, not his moral character.

 

 

When I wrote that I wasn't writing about Sansa' character or her likes and dislikes, I was writing about the folks who pine for Sansa to hook up with Tyrion and "live happily ever after".

[Newstar]

9 minutes ago, Byfort of Corfe said:

When I wrote that I wasn't writing about Sansa' character or her likes and dislikes, I was writing about the folks who pine for Sansa to hook up with Tyrion and "live happily ever after".

Ah. Well, people root for Sansa to end up with a guy who brags about killing children, so...

None of the three creepy old men in Sansa's life are any sort of prize, but like it or not, they are the main male characters in her storyline, and they're all pretty lousy from a moral perspective. Why should we want Sansa to end up with a guy who murdered his ex? Well, when the other two options are a guy who jokes about killing children and who threatened Sansa at knifepoint, and a guy who sold Sansa's best friend to a brothel and who's responsible for pretty much every bad thing that's happened to her and her family, Tyrion doesn't sound nearly so objectionable. 

There's a reason Sansa is shipped with dudes she's never met (Aegon, Willas, etc.) or with Jon, is all I'm saying.

[Byfort of Corfe]

5 minutes ago, Newstar said:

Well, people root for Sansa to end up with a guy who brags about killing children, so...

True, but there seems this willingness to view Tyrion as a semi-heroic character tat goes beyond the view of the Hound and others like him.  The Hound is at least honest about what he is.

[PCK]

20 hours ago, Nevets said:

I too am a Sansa fan, though it only happened on rereads that I discovered how intelligent and strong she really is. She has grown significantly since the first book.  She seems reluctant to marry, believing that most suitors are likely to want her for her claim to Winterfell.  I expect her to use her marriage to Tyrion as a blocking maneuver to prevent this.  I don't see her marrying Harry.  I don't she particularly likes him or trusts him.

I fully expect her to kill Littlefinger once she figures out what kind of person her really is and what he has done.  This could possibly involve info from Jeyne Poole, although I see Jeyne's story as more likely to be connected to Arya's, as I believe she is going to wind up in Braavos,  While in a preview chapter

  Hide contents

she is headed to the Wall, I expect Jon will be either "dead" or comatose, and she will head on to Braavos

.  Eventually, though, she will either find out something about the past, or LF will do something she can't tolerate, and will be his demise.  I doubt it will be something as foolish and obvious as a rape attempt, though.

Ultimately, I believe Sansa, like the other Stark kids, will have a major role in the fight against the Others.  In her case, it will be political, probably rallying support and organizing things like evacuations and food distribution.   Ultimately, I see her in some sort of leadership capacity by the end, possibly as a Queen Consort of a region or something similar.  

I like Sansa more and Arya less on re-reads.

[winter daughter]

2 hours ago, Newstar said:

Again, given the context, more than a grain of salt is warranted. GRRM knows that the fandom is talking about the outline and the "big five," and he's trying to convince us that Sansa is just as important as the other five, even though the outline says otherwise. I applaud the effort, but I am not so easily fooled.

well you said:

2 hours ago, Newstar said:

As for Sansa, long before the outline leaked, GRRM admitted that he came up with Sansa because the members of the Stark family were getting along too well. That alone should be a big tell as to Sansa's relative importance in the grand scheme of things.

So he doesn't care if people think she is not as important as other main characters. so your assumption that he has included her name because he's trying to convince us that she is just as important as the other five, doesn't make any sense.

and also he knows full well that the show will spoil his ending(and every big character's fate) in a matter of two years, long before he finishes the series. so why would he even bother to deceive people about such a thing?

BTW, I think we don't need an old outline to tell us who are the main characters...we have the books.

He has given Sansa Littlefinger(the main villain of the political part of the story) as her mentor. I think that's a good evidence of her importance.

 

[Newstar]

36 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

well you said:

So he doesn't care if people think she is not as important as other main characters. so your theory that he has included her name because he's trying to convince us that she is just as important as the other five, doesn't make any sense.

He's trying to convince us of Sansa's importance in light of the leak that appears to spoil the end of the books by identifying five central characters which survive. "Five central characters? LOL whatever are you talking about? Sansa is absolutely a central character. Outline? What outline?" 

GRRM probably felt free to admit that he came up with Sansa to generate conflict when he was secure in the knowledge that only a small number of fans would clue in to what that meant for Sansa's role in the overall story, much like GRRM has given many interviews over the years about how he always had the same endings in mind for various central characters since 1991. It's only when the outline was leaked, something GRRM never expected to happen while there were still books to be published, that he started trying to backtrack and talking up how important Sansa supposedly was despite the leaked outline suggesting otherwise.

However, the quote about Sansa's creation should raise hackles in of itself. If Sansa is so central and so important...why did GRRM come up with the character as an afterthought? In light of the leaked outline, it's even more suspicious. If lots of characters die, and Sansa seems to disappear from the outline early on, and she's not one of the five central characters guaranteed to survive...well, how important can she ultimately be? How could she possibly be intended to sit the Iron Throne or rule Winterfell if GRRM has always planned on the same ending and originally planned on killing her off?

Even if Sansa was once intended to die, GRRM may have decided to spare her. She won't be queen, though, and she won't end up with Winterfell. GRRM may have left himself an out for Sansa by keeping Sandor alive and continuing to dangle the SanSan carrot for readers. Maybe Sansa runs off with Sandor to live in happy obscurity somewhere. She could do that without disturbing the larger narrative of who wins the game of thrones, who ends up with Winterfell, etc. Sansa has always been a romantic idiot. Why not give her an ending worthy of one?

[winter daughter]

25 minutes ago, Newstar said:

He's trying to convince us of Sansa's importance in light of the leak that appears to spoil the end of the books. The much older quote from several years ago about inventing Sansa to drum up conflict among the other siblings, which might seem innocuous to the unwary eye without the benefit of the outline, takes on a lot more significance in light of the leak of an outline which hints at Sansa's death and excludes her from the big five.

Well I disagree.

the way Sansa and her story are developing, her mentors and the lessons she is learning, her strategic situation...all of these make me believe that she is one of the main characters.

but I could be wrong.

and what hint? care to elaborate?

 

[Newstar]

21 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

Well I disagree.

the way Sansa and her story are developing, her mentors and the lessons she is learning, her strategic situation...all of these make me believe that she is one of the main characters.

but I could be wrong. we shall see.

and what hint? care to elaborate?

Read the outline. Outline Sansa births Joffrey's son, the heir to the throne. The outline says that Outline Jaime murders everyone ahead of him in the line of succession (which would include Joffrey and Sansa's son) to claim the throne. After this, there's no further mention of Sansa in the outline.

The outline doesn't state outright that Sansa dies, therefore this is only a hint, albeit a pretty big one. But if you think about it, it looks worse and worse. How likely is it that Sansa wouldn't give her life to protect her son, or that Outline Jaime wouldn't murder Sansa as well on the off chance that Sansa was pregnant with Joffrey's child?

You may think that Sansa is one of the main characters, and heck, GRRM may genuinely see her as a main character now (although I doubt it for the reasons I have said). However, none of that matters with respect to the endgame. What matters is how GRRM viewed her when he came up with his ending back in 1991, an ending he has said over and over again he intends to use in ASOIAF. In 1993 he wrote an outline--with the ending he still intends to use in mind--where Sansa is a secondary character at best and where she appears to die fairly early on.

That doesn't mean that she's necessarily still doomed in ASOIAF, although it's certainly possible, but what it does mean is that when he came up with the broad strokes of his ending in 1991--the Iron Throne, who gets Winterfell, "who lives, who dies, who gets married" as he put it--Sansa was not part of it. Therefore, she can survive, and she can even end up with the Vale, since I doubt GRRM knew in 1991 what he was going to do with that plotline. What she won't do is end up with the Iron Throne or with Winterfell, since those rulers were decided back when he viewed Sansa as a secondary character and left her out of the ending.

That's why my pet ending of her running off with Sandor to live in obscurity somewhere is perfect. She gets the romantic ending and gets to marry for love as she always wanted, and just as GRRM would require for his 1991 ending to work, she won't disturb any of the key ending aspects by taking herself out of the running.

[winter daughter]

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

The outline doesn't state outright that Sansa dies, therefore this is only a hint. But if you think about it, it looks worse and worse. How likely is it that Sansa wouldn't give her life to protect her son, or that Outline Jaime wouldn't murder Sansa as well on the off chance that Sansa was pregnant with Joffrey's child?

Maybe you are right.

but the story has changed greatly.. and this is one of the very good examples.

Jamie that you think was probably Sansa's killer in that outline now thinks of her as his last chance of honor and he is willing to fight the hound to protect her.  the story and characters has changed... so I think it's quite possible that now Sansa is one of the main characters and that her faith is different than what the writer had in mind in that time.

 

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

she can survive, and she can even end up with the Vale, since I doubt GRRM knew in 1991 what he was going to do with that plotline. What she won't do is end up with the Iron Throne or with Winterfell, since those rulers were decided back when he viewed Sansa as a secondary character and left her out of the ending.

That's why my pet ending of her running off with Sandor to live in obscurity somewhere is perfect. She gets the romantic ending and gets to marry for love as she always wanted, and just as GRRM would require for his 1991 ending to work, she won't disturb any of the key ending aspects by taking herself out of the running.

I don't really care about her becoming the queen or lady of Winterfell. as a fan of her I want her to survive, take down Littlefinger, reunite with her family and if the Gods are good find someone who loves her for herself

 

 

[Lucius Lovejoy]

21 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

The problem is that Tyrion is not a noble, selfless soul who just so happens to be unattractive. Dude is straight up ugly inside and out. 

Even if Sansa grows out of her supposed "shallow" phase (which, let's be real, is an outdated concept. Like, why would it be a crime to be attracted to physical beauty?) she would still have more than enough valid reasons for staying the hell away from Tyrion. 

5 hours ago, Byfort of Corfe said:

You can say a lot of things about Tyrion and his motivations but they are anything but pure.  Let's face it, Tyrion would rather consort with prostitutes than any other woman.  GRRM shows this on a number of occasions.

3 hours ago, Byfort of Corfe said:

Besides, does anyone really want Sansa to wind up with multi-murderer Tyrion?  He murdered Shae in cold blood and why?  Because she had moved on to another customer.  In his own mind I think that Tyrion sees himself as acting nobly, merely taking revenge on those who have wronged him, but is he really that noble?

 I co-sign on all these statements.

 

5 hours ago, Lord Vance II said:

I don't know how Sansa's story will end, but I think her role in the endgame is to get Harry the Heir wrapped around her finger and get rid of Littlefinger since he can't help her anymore. And during the 11th hour of the Battle for the Dawn, she shows up in the North with 15,000 or so of the freshest troops in Westeros.

I think it's really key that at this point, with most of the great houses bruised and bloodied, the Vale (and White Harbor for that matter) still have large, relatively fresh armies. 

I think she would be content to be lady of the Eyrie at the very end. 

I agree with what you've written for the most part, but I envision that Harry the Heir is going to get off'ed too somehow, maybe during winter or in the war for dawn, and Sansa will rule the North/Vale (or both) as a "virgin" wardeness taking no husband (a la Queen Elizabeth I as referenced earlier).  My thought is that Westeros will be rebuilt with a new political/social order, and that unmarried, childless Sansa is part of that.

[Newstar]

17 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

Maybe you are right.

but the story has changed greatly.. and this is one of the very good examples.

Jamie that you think was probably Sansa's killer in that outline now thinks of her as his last chance of honor and he is willing to fight the hound to protect her.

Well, yes and no.

Outline Jaime is ruthless, power-hungry, murders his way to the throne after Joffrey dies, and forces Tyrion to flee into exile. This doesn't sound like ASOIAF Jaime, but it sounds an awful lot like ASOIAF Cersei. This isn't unusual in the outline, as there are other instances where roles have been traded off (Outline Tyrion sacks and burns Winterfell and doesn't in ASOIAF).

ASOIAF Cersei wants Sansa dead, albeit not for the same reasons Outline Jaime does. It seems that Outline Sansa was successfully offed by Outline Jaime (who is really a precursor to Cersei), while ASOIAF Sansa escapes Cersei and successfully flees KL to fight another day.

So yes, GRRM may have decided that ASOIAF would be more interesting if Sansa lived to fight another day and escaped KL and may have decided not to kill her at all. However, he may have merely decided to delay Cersei having Sansa killed until the best, i.e. most devastating moment. Cersei still desperately wants Sansa dead, and Cersei is far more dangerous than she's given credit for. Littlefinger thinks he can marry Sansa to Harry when Tyrion is dead and when Cersei is "done"; neither of those things are likely to happen anytime soon (even in ADWD, Cersei's down but not out). Tyrion will always successfully escape Cersei's wrath (because it's Tyrion and he's got plot armour out the wazoo), but Sansa? Sansa might not be so lucky in the end. Cersei even sees Sansa standing with Ned and Lady in the crowd during her walk of shame; Ned and Lady both indirectly died because of Cersei.

I'm not convinced Sansa will die, but if she does die, it will be because Cersei gets her. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

14 hours ago, Newstar said:

How is that clear? GRRM has also said that he never planned on the outline being leaked. GRRM jealously guards the secrets of future plots, as he should. You think that if the outline is leaked spoiling the survival of five characters that he's going to proceed to spoil his own novels by admitting that it was correct? Saying that he was "making shit up" to downplay the outline is a wise move, but given the circumstances, I think taking it at face value is foolish.

If there is one thing I have faith that GRRM is it is that he is honest, he has said he doesn't lie, he answers questions about the story openly when it is not something which will spoil it and when it is he re-directs the fan or directly says, keep reading.

As has already been mentioned the TV program will be spoiling the ending for us next year. Why on earth would he ruin his reputation as being honest but secretive about the story by claiming the outline was never the definitive version of the story, when it was?  If he says that Sansa is now an important character, and frankly the actual story which we have available to read really does show that she is, because he has dedicated thousands and thousands of pages developing a storyline which gives her her own directive. 

You really sound like you are grasping at straws. 

14 hours ago, Newstar said:

As for Sansa, long before the outline leaked, GRRM admitted that he came up with Sansa because the members of the Stark family were getting along too well. That alone should be a big tell as to Sansa's relative importance in the grand scheme of things.

Yes, I am well aware that she was initially a foil to the other Starks, that he wanted to represent them as a normal family who didn't always get along perfectly. And he has done a fabulous job of doing just that, the relationship between her and her sister is extremely realistic. But he has since then said that she is now one of the main characters, he's developled a story which we have all read which showcases that she has ended up becoming one of the main characters, and she has her own complex and rich story arc. 

He has been quite forthcoming actually about the way his story grows, and how he is still coming up with new ideas about it's direction. 

12 hours ago, Newstar said:

one of the five central characters guaranteed to survive...

You think those origional 5 central characters are guaranteed to survive?   How sweet. lol. 

12 hours ago, Newstar said:

How could she possibly be intended to sit the Iron Throne or rule Winterfell

I dunno, where did I claim she will? I said I think she will rule at WF for a short while. But I never said she'll be the Queen or Lady of WF long term, seeing the end out sitting in the high chair on the dias.  I don't think she will at all. And I certainly don't think she will end up in KL as Queen of the 7 Kingdoms.

 

12 hours ago, Newstar said:

Sansa has always been a romantic idiot. Why not give her an ending worthy of one?

Why would it be idiotic? Seems like a very sensible and fitting ending to me, after all her story centres around finding autonomy and resisting being used as a pawn to be passed around as a prize or leverage to whoever someone else deems fit. 

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

12 hours ago, Newstar said:

You may think that Sansa is one of the main characters, and heck, GRRM may genuinely see her as a main character now (although I doubt it for the reasons I have said). However, none of that matters with respect to the endgame.

 

You do realise that you just said that it doesn't matter what GRRM thinks about his own story and his own characters; that it only matters what he wrote in 1993.

Dear lord. 

12 hours ago, Newstar said:

where Sansa is a secondary character at best and where she appears to die fairly early on.

And he has since said that she is now a main character. Her story is unrecognisable now from what was the initial idea. As are several other characters.

Jaime is a good example. His story has in part been given to Cersei. And his entire characterisation is completely different to outline Jaime. Ramsey sacked WF instead of Tyrion; he didn't even exist in the outline.  I very much doubt Tyrion is going to fall in love with Arya. His story has changed. Sansa's has too. Get over it. 

12 hours ago, Newstar said:

with the ending he still intends to use in mind

Which does not mean Sansa will die. Nor does it mean his development of her character hasn't happened. The broad strokes are broad, and he's made it clear he has a definite story for her, it is in the books. 

 

12 hours ago, Newstar said:

"who lives, who dies, who gets married" as he put it--Sansa was not part of it. Therefore, she can survive, and she can even end up with the Vale, since I doubt GRRM knew in 1991 what he was going to do with that plotline. What she won't do is end up with the Iron Throne or with Winterfell, since those rulers were decided back when he viewed Sansa as a secondary character and left her out of the ending.

 

Well, she was part of it because she was always a character, her story was just not one of the main threads in the outline and she had a very different role then.  Now her role has been changed and she is more important than he initially planned.

Again, why do you think the only ending for the main characters is sitting the IT or ruling WF? There are 6 main characters, they can not all sit the IT, or rule WF? why do you think that unless she does one of these she is unimportant and irrelevant? Are your opinions about what is an important role and story so narrow? Do you really think the only important people are the rulers of a certain House/the IT? 

I doubt Bran will sit the IT either; is he unimportant?

12 hours ago, Newstar said:

That's why my pet ending

 

12 hours ago, Newstar said:

is perfect.

I don't disagree that she may well end up living a more modest life with Sandor. But I laughed and laughed because this pretty much sums up your attitude.  

12 hours ago, winter daughter said:

I don't really care about her becoming the queen or lady of Winterfell. as a fan of her I want her to survive, take down Littlefinger, reunite with her family and if the Gods are good find someone who loves her for herself

 

And having that ending does not make her unimportant. This story is about far more than who sits on the big pointy seat.

11 hours ago, Newstar said:

I'm not convinced Sansa will die, but if she does die, it will be because Cersei gets her. 

You know what Newstar; even if she does die by Cersei's hand it still does not mean she won't have been important!

I very much doubt Cersei gets to kill Sansa mind. Mainly because I don't think she will ever see her again. Cersei is indeed down but not out, and she'll likely rise again. But when fAegon gets to KL and or Jaime or Tyrion gets to her Cersei is a gonna. And Sansa's story is going north not south.  

[blacken]

49 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

And having that ending does not make her unimportant. This story is about far more than who sits on the big pointy seat.

You know what Newstar; even if she does die by Cersei's hand it still does not mean she won't have been important!

Yes! This exactly.

Sometimes I wonder if I'm reading the same books as other people. Sansa is a main character because she has had chapters in all the books bar DwD and we have watched her personal growth from a romantic, naive girl, to a young women who has survived an incredible amount of loss and violence. She is now beginning to find her feet, to figure out how to be an active agent in a world where she is supposed to be passive, and I for one am excited to read about how she goes forward.

Whether she dies before the end of the series is completely irrelevant as to whether she was a 'main' character. The important thing is that she is a central figure who I care for and have feelings about, who I root for and want to see succeed, who I empathise with and learn from. She has a character arc, and it is not done yet.

[Newstar]

11 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

If there is one thing I have faith that GRRM is it is that he is honest, he has said he doesn't lie,

He claimed that the outline was just "making shit up," but there were several elements of the outline that made it to ASOIAF, so that in of itself was misleading. The outline confirmed that Ned is not Jon's father and that Jon would learn of his parentage, which seems to be the case in ASOIAF (GRRM also said that Jon would find out about his parentage). The outline killed off Ned, Cat, Robb, and Joffrey, while ASOIAF killed off Ned, Cat, Robb and Joffrey. Is that making shit up? The outline contained several lines at the end that someone redacted. If it was bullshit he made up to throw at the publisher, why bother redacting the end?

Taking GRRM's claim that the outline was just him "making shit up," a claim that's provably untrue given the published ASOIAF books, at face value in light of the circumstances is foolish. Did he change things since the outline? Sure. Was the outline just making shit up? No, of course not. Was the ending he planned when writing the outline the same as the ending of ASOIAF? According to GRRM, it is.

There are dozens, even hundreds of important characters in ASOIAF, even dozen of POVs, but there were only five central characters as of the outline who were guaranteed to survive the books, and not only was Sansa was not one of them, but she was also hinted to die early on. The logical implications of that for Sansa's potential importance to the 1991 endgame, which seems to be the 2020 (or 2025 or whenever ADOS is published) ASOIAF endgame, are pretty clear: she can't play any significant role.

 

10 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

snip

Sure, Sansa's story has changed, but the broad strokes of GRRM's 1991 ending, conceived when Sansa was a secondary character he seemed to be planning on killing off, never have. No matter how much Sansa's story changes and grows, it cannot disturb or alter the broad strokes of the ending. That carries implications for what GRRM can and can't do with her character, and therefore for her endgame.

She can't end up on the Iron Throne (since that's going to one of the main five, assuming there is an Iron Throne), either as queen regnant or queen consort.

She can't end up with Winterfell (since that's going to go to one of the surviving Starks from the main five), and/or as Queen in the North.

She can't end up with Tyrion or Jon, since GRRM always had the same ending in mind for them which excluded Sansa. (Not that a ton of readers think Tyrion/Sansa or Sansa/Jon was likely, but still.)

She can't have any kind of pivotal role in the war against the WW or in the resolution of the issue of who gets the Iron Throne.

Essentially, she can't do anything that will change the broad strokes of the 1991 ending with her existence or involvement in the story, and that constrains what GRRM can do with Sansa.

As Sansa (presumably) grows in power and influence in ASOIAF under Littlefinger, and as the Starks make their long-awaited comeback, and as ADOS draws closer and closer, the harder and harder GRRM is going to have to work to keep her from affecting or changing his ending, which means that he may need to take her off the board to prevent her from doing that, either by killing her or removing her from power and influence. Maybe she goes on the run with Sandor and is never heard from again. Maybe she stays in the Vale, marries Harry the Heir, but never returns to Winterfell, leaving the Starks to sort out the Otherpocalypse themselves. Maybe he decides to hell with it and offs her.

With all that said, I think the Tyrion/Sansa marriage may be a sign from GRRM that Sansa isn't making it out of the books alive. GRRM never would have married Tyrion off to Sansa unless he planned on permanently extricating him from it (to keep his 1991 Sansa-less ending intact), and I have a feeling that an annulment is unlikely to take place.