Just Rhaegar and Lyanna things

[maudisdottir]

14 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

Viserys told her about a "midnight flight to Dragonstone."  But later, Jaime tells us he saw Rhaella departing for Dragonstone in the morning.  

 

It is also worth remembering Theon's dream, where he sees Lyanna wearing her white Baratheon betrothal gown "spattered with gore."  That does not sound like love.   

Jaime doesn't say she departed for Dragonstone in the morning, but that she departed for the ship in the morning. They might have sailed in the evening or at midnight. But I agree there's confusion, and Viserys may have meant the midnight flight FROM Dragonstone.

And where does it say Lyanna wore her Baratheon betrothal gown? Sounds more like a nightgown covered in blood from the birthing bed, which just so happens to be where she died.

[Ygrain]

4 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

And where does it say Lyanna wore her Baratheon betrothal gown?

Nowhere. Nor, to my best memory, does it say that the bride must wear white.

[The Twinslayer]

7 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

Jaime doesn't say she departed for Dragonstone in the morning, but that she departed for the ship in the morning. They might have sailed in the evening or at midnight. But I agree there's confusion, and Viserys may have meant the midnight flight FROM Dragonstone.

And where does it say Lyanna wore her Baratheon betrothal gown? Sounds more like a nightgown covered in blood from the birthing bed, which just so happens to be where she died.

Jaime saw Rhaella "the morning of the day she left for Dragonstone."  She was getting into a wagon that took her "to the waiting ship."  It seems unlikely that she would go to the ship in the morning and then wait there to sail until late enough in the day for a "midnight flight."  

The clues that Lyanna was wearing a Baratheon betrothal gown come from Sansa.  When Sansa is betrothed to Joffrey Baratheon, Cersei gives her a white gown.  We get a good description of it after Arya stains it and Sansa dyes it black and uses it as a mourning gown (mourning for her dead father).  The parallels here to Lyanna are obvious.

We know Lyanna is not wearing a wedding gown in Theron's vision (as some have suggested) because it does not match the description of the wedding gown Sansa wears when she weds Tyrion or the gown Jayne wears for her wedding to Ramsay.  

[maudisdottir]

She died in bed, a bed of blood. Why is a nightgown covered in blood less likely than a Baratheon betrothal gown that's never mentioned in the text, all because somebody else dyed one black?

[The Twinslayer]

2 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

She died in bed, a bed of blood. Why is a nightgown covered in blood less likely than a Baratheon betrothal gown that's never mentioned in the text, all because somebody else dyed one black?

Because highborn ladies don't wear nightgowns to bed.  When Sansa goes to bed, she just unlaces the gown she wore during the day and slips into bed.  Lady Merryweather sleeps naked (Cersei does not have to remove a nightgown to commence intimacy).

And because even if they did wear nightgowns to sleep there is no reason to think they wear them to give birth.

And because the symbolism in Theron's dream is pretty powerful, so GRRM makes us work to find the solution to the puzzle.  Sansa's betrothal gown is described in several different places (when she gets it, when it is stained, when it is dyed), so it is designed to catch the careful reader's attention.  Then we get Theron's dream of Lyanna in a white gown, realize that that is the only white gown other than Sansa's Baratheon betrothal gown, and we put two and two together.

[The Twinslayer]

Just to add, in ASOS, Tyrion IV, Tyrion decides to stop sleeping naked and commands Sansa to start wearing a "sleeping shift" as well.  Which strongly suggests that Lyanna would not have worn a nightgown (unless she was married to someone she was not having relations with, like Sansa and Tyrion).

So the white gown Lyanna is wearing in Theon's dream is not a sleeping shift, it is not a wedding gown, it matches the description of a Baratheon betrothal gown, and it does not match the description of any other gown.

It is a Baratheon betrothal gown.

[The Exiled Septa]

How do you notice such things? 

It would never  cross my mind to investigate what kind of gown was Lyanna wearing in that scene.

Nice !! 

[maudisdottir]

On 05/04/2017 at 11:06 AM, The Twinslayer said:

And because even if they did wear nightgowns to sleep there is no reason to think they wear them to give birth.

I disagree with this. It's one thing to sleep naked alone or with someone; it's another thing entirely to give birth in a room with any number of people (maesters, nursemaids etc). Women in hospitals don't give birth naked nowadays.

There is nothing in the text connecting Lyanna with a betrothal gown, yet we know she died in a bed of blood.  To me it makes more sense that we're seeing her spattered with gore from the birthing bed, as IIRC that's also the only link we have between Lyanna and blood. I don't know why Theon would see a vision of Lyanna from a scene not contained in any of the books.

[Ser Walter of AShwood]

Let's see how the dream exactly was written down shall we?

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Theon V

King Robert sat with his guts spilling out on the table from the great gash in his belly, and Lord Eddard was headless beside him. Corpses lined the benches below, grey-brown flesh sloughing off their bones as they raised their cups to toast, worms crawling in and out of the holes that were their eyes. He knew them, every one; Jory Cassel and Fat Tom, Porther and Cayn and Hullen the master of horse, and all the others who had ridden south to King's Landing never to return. Mikken and Chayle sat together, one dripping blood and the other water. Benfred Tallhart and his Wild Hares filled most of a table. The miller's wife was there as well, and Farlen, even the wildling Theon had killed in the wolfswood the day he had saved Bran's life.

But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind. Along the walls figures half-seen moved through the shadows, pale shades with long grim faces. The sight of them sent fear shivering through Theon sharp as a knife. And then the tall doors opened with a crash, and a freezing gale blew down the hall, and Robb came walking out of the night. Grey Wind stalked beside, eyes burning, and man and wolf alike bled from half a hundred savage wounds.

All the people we see are basically in the state which they died in (Robert gutted by a boar, Eddard decapitated, the millers wife, etc.)
So we can assume that Lyanna is also here in the gown that she died in.
Why would Lyanna be wearing a Baratheon wedding gown when she is with Rhaegar and 3 kingsguard in the Tower of Joy. If the was there voluntarily, then she wouldn't have any desires to marry Robert Baratheon and thus not wear the gown that would indicate she wants to marry him.

If she was held in the tower by force, why would their captors allow her to wear a wedding gown from the very man who is currently ravaging the countryside, killing Targaryens and their loyalists in every battle.

As in medieval times, nudity is not something that is generally accepted. Sansa probably always wore sleeping gowns, but it is not written down until the is married to Tyrion and shared the bedroom with him.

 

Now, if you were held captive, why should you sleep naked, when your captors could walk in at any moment.
If you're there voluntarily, you might be someone who sleeps naked, but as a highborn lady, I doubt it.

What we see in Theon's dream, is a list of everybody who died, in the state they died in. Lyanna died wearing a nightgown/birthing gown in the Tower of Joy, in a room smelling of bed and roses, where she gave birth to baby Jon and died because of it.

Also, how did she acquire a Baratheon wedding gown? She briefly met Robert at the Tourney of Harrenhall, but there were no wedding plans yet, only a betrothal.

[The Twinslayer]

11 hours ago, Valedina said:

How do you notice such things? 

It would never  cross my mind to investigate what kind of gown was Lyanna wearing in that scene.

Nice !! 

Thank you.  Sansa's betrothal gown caught my attention because it was described in so many places, making me think it was important.  It was also interesting that it went through transformations that reflected what was going on around her.  At first it was pure white, reflecting her innocence and naivety.  Later, it was blemished as we started to see that her engagement to Joffrey was not the pleasant thing she thought it would be.  Then she dyes it black to mourn her father.  It has gone from something pure and happy to something that is spoiled and sad.  

The only other white gown that is described in the books is Lyanna's.  Like Sansa, Lyanna was betrothed to a Baratheon, so it is easy to see why she would have the only other white gown.  Lyanna got her white gown the same way Sansa got hers -- as a gift from her fiance's family (the same family).  And, like Sansa's, Lyanna's gown was transformed in a way that reflected what was going on around her.  Her engagement to Robert was spoiled by blood and gore (the war that broke out after she disappeared).  

6 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

I disagree with this. It's one thing to sleep naked alone or with someone; it's another thing entirely to give birth in a room with any number of people (maesters, nursemaids etc). Women in hospitals don't give birth naked nowadays.

There is nothing in the text connecting Lyanna with a betrothal gown, yet we know she died in a bed of blood.  To me it makes more sense that we're seeing her spattered with gore from the birthing bed, as IIRC that's also the only link we have between Lyanna and blood. I don't know why Theon would see a vision of Lyanna from a scene not contained in any of the books.

Lyanna might have died in childbirth, but if she did there is no reason to think she was wearing a nightgown when it happened.  When Dany goes into labor, it happens during the day and she is wearing clothes.  There is no reason to think that she would have changed into a nightgown after starting labor and prior to the delivery.  Especially if, like most Westerosi ladies, she did not usually wear a nightgown to bed.  

In AGOT, Maester Luwin comes into Ned's and Cat's chamber while they are in bed.  Catelyn is wrapped in furs, but when she gets up, she is naked.  Ned protests that Luwin is there and Cat replies "Maester Luwin has delivered all my children.  This is no time for false modesty."  It does not sound like Catelyn put on a nightgown to deliver her children, either.

And it would not make sense for a woman in labor to put on a white gown and to wear it in a way that it would be spattered with gore during the birth process.  That would ruin the gown.  

4 hours ago, Ser Walter of AShwood said:

Let's see how the dream exactly was written down shall we?

All the people we see are basically in the state which they died in (Robert gutted by a boar, Eddard decapitated, the millers wife, etc.)
So we can assume that Lyanna is also here in the gown that she died in.
Why would Lyanna be wearing a Baratheon wedding gown when she is with Rhaegar and 3 kingsguard in the Tower of Joy. If the was there voluntarily, then she wouldn't have any desires to marry Robert Baratheon and thus not wear the gown that would indicate she wants to marry him.

If she was held in the tower by force, why would their captors allow her to wear a wedding gown from the very man who is currently ravaging the countryside, killing Targaryens and their loyalists in every battle.

As in medieval times, nudity is not something that is generally accepted. Sansa probably always wore sleeping gowns, but it is not written down until the is married to Tyrion and shared the bedroom with him.

 

Now, if you were held captive, why should you sleep naked, when your captors could walk in at any moment.
If you're there voluntarily, you might be someone who sleeps naked, but as a highborn lady, I doubt it.

What we see in Theon's dream, is a list of everybody who died, in the state they died in. Lyanna died wearing a nightgown/birthing gown in the Tower of Joy, in a room smelling of bed and roses, where she gave birth to baby Jon and died because of it.

Also, how did she acquire a Baratheon wedding gown? She briefly met Robert at the Tourney of Harrenhall, but there were no wedding plans yet, only a betrothal.

I disagree that the dream is a literal depiction of how each character died.  When Robb walks in bleeding from his stab wounds, Grey Wind is walking beside him.  But we know that Robb died in Lord Frey's dining hall while Grey Wind died in the kennel.  So that is not a literal depiction of how Robb died at all.  And Lyanna is depicted wearing a crown of blue roses on her head in Theon's dream, but Ned's tells us that she died holding dead black flowers in her hand.  Again, it is not a literal depiction of Lyanna's death.

So Lyanna may or may not have died literally wearing the white gown Theon sees in his dream.  I think it is symbolic, reflecting the fact that, when she died, she was betrothed to Robert Baratheon and that her bloody death is what ended the betrothal.  This is confirmed by Robert, who says:  "If Lyanna had lived, we should have been brothers, bound by blood as well as affection."  

And note that I did not say it was a Baratheon wedding gown.  Stark women wear Stark colors to their weddings.  Sansa wore gray and white to her wedding.  Jeyne Poole (as fake Arya) wore the same when she wed Ramsay.  The white gown is a Baratheon betrothal gown.  Sansa received hers as a gift from Joffrey's family upon her betrothal -- years before the wedding would happen.  Robert says Sansa is "Old enough for betrothal.  The marriage can wait a few years."  So Lyanna likely received the same gift when she was betrothed to Robert.  Ned may even have brought it with him when he approached Lord Rickard on Robert's behalf.  

And whether she was with Rhaegar willingly or not, she likely continued to sleep naked.  If they were lovers, she would have slept naked with him.  If she was a captive, why would Rhaegar give her a night shift?  Sansa doesn't wear a gown to bed even after she becomes Cersei's prisoner.    

[Byfort of Corfe]

The one thing that I have never gotten about the whole Rhaegar Lyanna affair is this, if Lyanna was free to communicate why didn't she get word to Ned saying something like "I'm okay, I'm with the man I love, please don't fight this war?  From all that has been described about Rhaegar, his chivalry and love of the common people and desire for a general healing in Westeros why doesn't he appear with Lyanna and say something like, "look, we are in Love, I realize that she was betrothed to another but to have thousands die because you think I kidnapped and raped her is horrible and unnecessary"?  True there are deep political ramifications but could it have ended any worse for the Targaryens than it did?  Surely Rhaegar could have gotten a divorce from the High Septon.  Aegon would still have been the heir apparent, Lyanna's baby would only have come after him.  Based on what we have been told about Rhaegar none of what he does, whether it's for Love or Lust or to fulfill a prophecy makes sense to me.

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, Byfort of Corfe said:

The one thing that I have never gotten about the whole Rhaegar Lyanna affair is this, if Lyanna was free to communicate why didn't she get word to Ned saying something like "I'm okay, I'm with the man I love, please don't fight this war?  From all that has been described about Rhaegar, his chivalry and love of the common people and desire for a general healing in Westeros why doesn't he appear with Lyanna and say something like, "look, we are in Love, I realize that she was betrothed to another but to have thousands die because you think I kidnapped and raped her is horrible and unnecessary"?  True there are deep political ramifications but could it have ended any worse for the Targaryens than it did?  Surely Rhaegar could have gotten a divorce from the High Septon.  Aegon would still have been the heir apparent, Lyanna's baby would only have come after him.  Based on what we have been told about Rhaegar none of what he does, whether it's for Love or Lust or to fulfill a prophecy makes sense to me.

Because Aerys wanted Ned's head on a silver platter, so the moment Ned stopped fighting, his head would roll, not to mention many others. 

The war was not about Lyanna, the war started because Jon Arryn refused to have his wards beheaded and because Aerys had gone too far in his murder lust. No-one was calling banners after the supposed abduction.

[Byfort of Corfe]

20 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Because Aerys wanted Ned's head on a silver platter, so the moment Ned stopped fighting, his head would roll, not to mention many others. 

The war was not about Lyanna, the war started because Jon Arryn refused to have his wards beheaded and because Aerys had gone too far in his murder lust. No-one was calling banners after the supposed abduction.

If Rhaegar was actually so chivalrous he should then have sided with the Rebels.  He and Lyanna are both sleeping with the enemy, assuming that Lyanna is there of her own free will.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

26 minutes ago, Byfort of Corfe said:

If Rhaegar was actually so chivalrous

If Rhaegar was a decent human being he wouldn't had abandoned his wife, who had almost died, because she wasn't useful as a baby making machine any more, along with his children in order to elope with his cousin's intended.

[Prof. Cecily]

To understand the saga of Rhaegar and Lyanna, I think it's useful to reread the Wiki article about his royal father, Aerys II. 

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Aerys_II_Targaryen

The tangled and twisted roots of the events leading up to it make this tragic saga totally epic.

After all, Rhaegar and Lyanna are not private people and their relations are shaped by the affairs of state. 

Thanks to the OP for piquing my curiosity and to Wiki for SO much information. 

[ThePrinceThatKnewNothing]

Good post!

I believe they fell in love, and I believe they fell in love after Aerys told Rhaegar to hunt down The Knight of the laughing tree, from what we know about Lyanna you can imagine her not treating Rhaegar like a prince and instead fully justifying why she's dressed up as TKLT. I mean I don't believe it was instant but I can see Rhaegar liking her wildness. I also wonder if Rhaegar knew she was the one with whom he must carry out the prophecy. He spent time at Summerhall and it's not unlikely that he made Jenny's song for the ghost of high heart and she gave him visions in return for him singing this song. She could have told him to look out for The blue winter Rose or the She wolf or something. Of course a lot of this is speculation as we don't actually know much about what happened between them. But the fact Rhaegar whispered a womans name on his dying lips has me leaning towards that they were in love. 

[ThePrinceThatKnewNothing]

On Fri Apr 07 2017 at 6:11 PM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

If Rhaegar was a decent human being he wouldn't had abandoned his wife, who had almost died, because she wasn't useful as a baby making machine any more, along with his children in order to elope with his cousin's intended.

How did he abandon her? Do you know he abandoned her? How do you know she wasn't okay with him having a baby with another woman and that she knew about the Prophecy? Yes Rhaegar sent the realm into war but it's harsh to say that makes him a bad person, what he did was actually try and protect the realm for what was to come. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

7 hours ago, ThePrinceThatKnewNothing said:

How did he abandon her? Do you know he abandoned her? How do you know she wasn't okay with him having a baby with another woman and that she knew about the Prophecy? Yes Rhaegar sent the realm into war but it's harsh to say that makes him a bad person, what he did was actually try and protect the realm for what was to come. 

He abandoned he,r when she almost died to give him more children, at Aerys' mercy. If he cared for her he would had at least moved her to a safe place, Dragonstone belonged to the King not to him. He could had sent them to Sunspear and then eloping with Lyanna. As for her being ok with that how do you think that would had happened? "Hi dear! I am about to start a harem, eloping and get marry with a teen whose father is a Great Lord and whose intended is also a Great Lord and my cousin and have more children with her, since you cannot give me more, which would mean that yours and mine and their descendants will be in danger." Who would had been ok at least with his or hers children and descendants being in danger? With Lyanna's children Elia's children would had always be in danger.

[maudisdottir]

9 hours ago, ThePrinceThatKnewNothing said:

Good post!

I believe they fell in love, and I believe they fell in love after Aerys told Rhaegar to hunt down The Knight of the laughing tree, from what we know about Lyanna you can imagine her not treating Rhaegar like a prince and instead fully justifying why she's dressed up as TKLT. I mean I don't believe it was instant but I can see Rhaegar liking her wildness. I also wonder if Rhaegar knew she was the one with whom he must carry out the prophecy. He spent time at Summerhall and it's not unlikely that he made Jenny's song for the ghost of high heart and she gave him visions in return for him singing this song. She could have told him to look out for The blue winter Rose or the She wolf or something. Of course a lot of this is speculation as we don't actually know much about what happened between them. But the fact Rhaegar whispered a womans name on his dying lips has me leaning towards that they were in love. 

I've been speculating that something in the prophecy is along the lines of "slayer of three" and Lyanna defeated the three knights at the tourney. That might have been a sign to Rhaegar.

And while I'm not totally on board with the "Elia was fine with it" line of thinking, we do have a comparison of sorts with Selyse. She practically pushed Stannis into Melisandre's arms, all because of prophecy and a fanatical belief that Stannis is the chosen one.

[IceFire125]

11 hours ago, ThePrinceThatKnewNothing said:

I believe they fell in love, and I believe they fell in love after Aerys told Rhaegar to hunt down The Knight of the laughing tree, from what we know about Lyanna you can imagine her not treating Rhaegar like a prince and instead fully justifying why she's dressed up as TKLT. I mean I don't believe it was instant but I can see Rhaegar liking her wildness. I also wonder if Rhaegar knew she was the one with whom he must carry out the prophecy. He spent time at Summerhall and it's not unlikely that he made Jenny's song for the ghost of high heart and she gave him visions in return for him singing this song. She could have told him to look out for The blue winter Rose or the She wolf or something. Of course a lot of this is speculation as we don't actually know much about what happened between them. But the fact Rhaegar whispered a womans name on his dying lips has me leaning towards that they were in love. 

I believe GRRM gives his readers clues and hints, one way is he does a story within a story...

“Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night.”
“I never meant to steal you,” he said. “I never knew you were a girl until my knife was at your throat.”
“If you kill a man, and never mean t’, he’s just as dead,” Ygritte said stubbornly. Jon had never met anyone so stubborn, except maybe for his little sister Arya. Is she still my sister? he wondered. Was she ever?

**Stealing Ygritte >>> connects to Arya >>> Arya is the reincarnate of Lyanna >>> who stole Lyanna??

**Is Arya still my sister?? Was she ever??

-No Jon, she is your cousin, but GRRM happily associated and surrounded her with Lyanna-like quality (mainly, free spirited and strong willed), and the one person you actually feel a sense of strong affection to, very deeply, to where the woman that you're about to fall in love with, displayed a strong sense of Arya according to you.

**Rhaegar found the Knight of the Laughing Tree.  He didn't realize that the knight was a girl until his knife was at her throat.  

-----

A story within a story...

And where do I stand? Jon did not know. To stay with Ygritte, he would need to become a wildling heart and soul. If he abandoned her to return to his duty, the Magnar might cut her heart out. And if he took her with him … assuming she would go, which was far from certain … well, he could scarcely bring her back to Castle Black to live among the brothers. A deserter and a wildling could expect no welcome anywhere in the Seven Kingdoms.

**To stay with Lyanna I would become a wildling heart and soul.

**To abandoned her and return to my duty, Varys' spies will eventually find out about her whereabouts, and my Father's men might cut her heart out.

**If I took her somewhere South, some place where we are on friendly land and easy accessible, assuming she wants to go, in fact, what if she doesn't wanna go?

**For sure she can't go back to the Red Keep or back to her Father's castle in Winterfell, is there a place in the Seven Kingdoms where I can take her, but not risking the lives of the people that would take us in?

**Where do I stand?