Just Rhaegar and Lyanna things

[purple-eyes]

6 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

"The coming of the new year" doesn't mean new year's day or the first week of January. It just means after the new year. I'd say it could be any time up until February (although that probably doesn't fit in with the rest of the timeline) but it shouldn't be taken to literally mean the first day of the year.

I doubt it will be February. Last day of 281 KL got snow. Snow continued for the best part of fornight (two weeks) and river got half frozen (stuff like that, do not remember details). Aerys had to ask his people to set wildfire and wish they can drive off winter by magic. But Rhaegar was not there to see this because he left already. 

It sounds like Rhaegar left pretty soon. 

Here is the situation:

1. His firstborn son was just born. (you usually do not expect a husband/father elope with his new lover to enjoy honeymoon right after his baby son was born) 

2. He decided this son is the promised prince since his conception was heralded by a red comet. (prince is promised for this world to do what? maybe defeat long night?) 

3. His wife almost died during child birth. (this might not be important for Rhargar but anyway usually you do not expect a husband elope with his new lover right after his wife almost died to give him a son even this is just a pilitical marriage, unless this person is just too cold-blooded) 

4. A strange and unusual winter suddenly came after a "spring" and it is so bad that Aerys had to try to drive it off with magic. 

Under such circumstances, there are two possible choices: 

1. He suddenly decided that he had to elope with his new teenager lover to enjoy a secret honeymoon somewhere in a lonely desert for some time. (everything else can just go to hell compared to my lovely Lya!) 

2. He believed his son is the promised prince. He thought this unusual harsh winter is a sign of long night. then he shockingly realized he can not get his third head to create a trio to defeat this long night. He kind of panicked. He decided that he had to take action to make this happen either by himself or with counsel of somebody (high heart ghost?). He knows this is a very dangerous act. but he is ready to carry this duty for the greater good. (of course Lyanna's loveliness made it easier, Rhaegat thought, thank god he did not need to run off with Maggy the frog) 

Which one is more reasonable? 

 

[maudisdottir]

4 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

Which one is more reasonable? 

Why does it have to be one of those two options? We don't know, that's my point. There could be many other things going on and again, we don't know until George tells us.

[Hodor the Articulate]

11 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

Which one is more reasonable? 

Are you seriously trying present the decision to impregnate an already betrothed daughter of a prominent lord as reasonable? Luckily GRRM has proven to have a better understanding of human behaviour than that. And you seem to have shifted the goal post once again. Before, Rhaegar was trying to make the PtwP with Lyanna, now you claim he was doing it to make the third head of the dragon (because you can't explain why he'd change his mind about Aegon being the Prince).

I absolutely hate using timelines and WoIaF as evidence of anything, because both are full of errors. Most authors don't do the math, and GRRM, who doesn't meticulously plan out his stories, is no exception. But since you insist on relying on the World book and the timeline, here are some problems with your assumptions:

- The winter during the Year of the False Spring wasn't strange and unusual. Tyrion was born in a winter that lasted three years, which suggests there's nothing special about a winter that had only been going on for not even two years at that point. No one would compare it to the Long Night, which lasted a generation.

- The Long Night is connected to the Prophecy for the readers, but it's not at all apparent that that's true in-universe.

- WoIaF says R was MIA sometime during the month that Aerys lit wildfire around the Red Keep. Could mean he left before that, or any time during. If I can't make inferences about the time Aegon was born and and R left, neither can you.

- Immediate means immediate. Like, the maestar says "Lyanna's too sick to have another baby" and Rhaegar fucks off. I mean, you're suggesting R was laser focused on the prophecy, which was top priority, so why dawdle?

- If we're to take everything in the Worldbook as fact, we must also take in the implication that R and L's meeting was a chance encounter, and not planned.

- In fact, if it was planned, why on earth did he take 6 men with him?

[Wolfgirly]

On 23/05/2017 at 0:47 AM, velo-knight said:

The distance traveled, and the fact that their eventual sanctuary was in Dorne, land of Rhaegar's wife, makes me doubt both of the established narratives - neither the abduction to make heads scenario or the elopement scenario requires it. What scenario would require it is clear: someone found out Lyanna was tKoTLT, planned to take some action against her; and Rhaegar, out of either duty or love, attempted to intervene and they fled to safety. What follows is anyone's guess, though the outcome is clear enough.

 

Sorry I don't know what "tKoTLT" means

[Wolfgirly]

On Rhaegar wanting a third child for the prophesy thing getting fuflfilled, didn't he consider himself the 3rd dragon head?

I'm still confused as to how long it took him with Lyanna being carried off to get all the way to Tower of Joy. Didn't anyone see them on their travel? 

Also I wonder if the "Tower of Joy" had been a happy abode for them at the beginning. I can imagine that they would've spent a very close time together there, eating, talking,dancing, romancing, ect. Him playing music for her. She's swept off her feet. Spoilt by him. Treated like a queen. She's pregnant,and missing her family. Had she tried to contact her relatives via birds? Was she banned from using a horse? or not allowed to go outside?

 

 

[Ygrain]

3 hours ago, Wolfgirly said:

Had she tried to contact her relatives via birds?

Birds can deliver messages to the places where they were born. Unless Lyanna had some birds from Winterfell, she couldn't send any message in this way. 

[velo-knight]

3 hours ago, Wolfgirly said:

Sorry I don't know what "tKoTLT" means

The Knight of the Laughing Tree.

[Wolfgirly]

5 hours ago, velo-knight said:

The Knight of the Laughing Tree.

Oh okay. I agree that she was that knight of the laughing tree and Rhaegar knew this. Yes that makes sense now

[Weirwood Ghost]

I was thinking about the star-crossed lovers story in history and thought of the mythology of the fall of Troy:

Paris of Troy and Helen of Sparta (Helen already a Queen in her own right was married to Menelaus of Sparta): Where Helen was abducted by Paris after he was given a choice by Aphrodite Goddess of love, and he chose to take Helen to Troy. Other accounts claim she went of her own accord and she and Paris eloped. Menelaus and Achilles went to Troy and war ensued. Helen was considered the most beautiful woman in the world. Her move whether by force or not, ignited the Trojan war in this enormous Greek mythological tragedy.

When I read the novel Firebrand by Marion Zimmer Bradley which is a historical novel of the fall of Troy, many of the themes of the characters could be that of the characters in Martin's world. Bradley, like Martin, creates characters of such human quality...that make plenty of good/bad decisions, that it's easy to see how we as people could make spontaneous or calculated or naive choices without foreseeing the absolute catastrophic dire outcomes they lead to. You have to hand it to Martin creating deeply flawed but human characters, within a medieval structured magical fantasy world. That's why we love the characters right? They could do aaaaaanything =)

(as a side note, Marion Zimmer Bradley used the term "words are wind" in her novel Mists of Avalon long before Martin did).

[Nami]

On 09/04/2017 at 11:19 PM, Hodor the Articulate said:

No he wasn't, and I wish people would stop treating this as fact.

Rhaegar is often mentioned in relation to the prophecy because the prophecy is one of the central mysteries of the series, and he was one of the people who studied it. Nowhere does it say he spent his waking hours focused on it, or that he prioritised it above all else. In fact, he is characterised as having many other interests, like music and books (and Lyanna). He also had longstanding plans to overthrow Aerys.

I'm also completely unconvinced that Rhaegar was trying for "three heads", and especially of the idea that he was willing to do anything to achieve that. It all hinges a few words by hallucination!Rhaegar in the HotU, said while "his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door". If that wasn't cue that the "there must be one more [...] The dragon has three heads” bit was "sights and sounds of [...] days that never were", I don't know what is.

Seriously. I'm so tired of people talking of this as if it's official.
I think he fell in love and simply lost all reason. It's the most human behaviour instead of sociopathic mastermind some people for some reason seem to get from what we know of Rhaegar.