Jump to content

Targaryen Madness is an Exaggeration


Recommended Posts

I've always thought so too. I don't think you've given any evidence for it, and I doubt there really is any, but there's little to no evidence that madness runs in Targaryen genes either.

 

For me Aerys II is the only really mad one that comes to mind and I just consider him a lone nut, possibly a justifiably paranoid nut driven insane by Bloodraven sending him visions in his dreams or something similar.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

58 minutes ago, Praetor Xyn said:

I've always thought so too. I don't think you've given any evidence for it, and I doubt there really is any, but there's little to no evidence that madness runs in Targaryen genes either.

 

For me Aerys II is the only really mad one that comes to mind and I just consider him a lone nut, possibly a justifiably paranoid nut driven insane by Bloodraven sending him visions in his dreams or something similar.

And it doesn't even have to be Bloodraven.  Some maester at the Citadel who doesn't know what he's doing tried to visit the king's dreams to manipulate him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Uuuuuuuuuuuh,

At first glance it seems counter intuitive for targs to get crazier after dragons are gone...... i'd have scripted the time of madness for when a current mind meld exists with a living ridden dragon.   That's when predatory brainwaves would be washing into the rider's psyche, you'd think, and hyper aggressive "insane" behavior would surface.  ....but if that isn't when insanity strikes.......

Desperation, then.  Regular political desperation, plus something else that makes them hallucinate, on numerous occasions, the need to immolate, to become a dragon.    Their bloodline was codependent with the dragon link, and now that defunct link was stretched thin, to the breaking point.  ???      Or, my favorite new explanation:

What if the dying dragons transferred their consciousness into Targs, like Jon might shunt his awareness into the wolf upon the death of his human self.  

This would wonderfully explain the repeated targ impulse to transform bodily into a dragon by immolating themselves, their belief they ARE a real dragon...... is because they truly are one, or carry one inside, in mind.  The mental remnant seeks to reclaim its physical form, through magic, but the human vessels lack the needed magical fluency.  .....the dragons seem to think it's possible to succeed though!!   I'm electing to take them seriously.   Might be the fever dream of a fading dragon psyche, but then again we may see a successful immolation/phoenix birth as part of the magical finale to the series (!)     

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/4/2017 at 1:56 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

And it doesn't even have to be Bloodraven.  Some maester at the Citadel who doesn't know what he's doing tried to visit the king's dreams to manipulate him.

Glass candles are a definite possibility, but I'm not sure they were functional until around the time Daenerys's dragons are born when they were said to burn again.

The wheel weaves as the wheel wills ;) I doubt we'll get closure on most of these things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the reason why Targaryen madness is discussed so heavily among fans is because of how frequently it's mentioned in the books. Dany herself frets over whether or not she has "the taint," and Barristan's comment about how Viserys was already taking after his father as a child also undoubtedly weighed on her mind. When a story continuously draws the reader's attention to something, it's bound to be important in one way or the other. Personally, I don't think Dany is going mad, but I think her efforts to retake the throne with her dragons is going to result in a great deal of destruction. (Which is one of the reasons why I find it suspicious when the maesters of TWOIAF claim the smallfolk were overjoyed by Aegon and his sisters' arrival. I doubt they were overjoyed to be killed in drones, along with their homes and crops).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

(Which is one of the reasons why I find it suspicious when the maesters of TWOIAF claim the smallfolk were overjoyed by Aegon and his sisters' arrival. I doubt they were overjoyed to be killed in drones, along with their homes and crops).

The dragons didn't kill all that many people during the Wars of the Conquest. There were battles in the Crownlands, the Stormlands, the sea, and at Harrenhal. Most people most likely died during the sea battle, the Last Storm and the previous battles in the Stormlands, and the battles and burning of Harrenhal.

The Field of Fire was a major event but only hundreds died there, not thousands. And the Targaryens stood against 55,000 men in that battle.

It really seems if the smallfolk was pretty happy with their new overlords. Else KL wouldn't have grown as quickly as it did. The Conqueror and Queen Rhaenys were immensely popular.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think the reason why Targaryen madness is discussed so heavily among fans is because of how frequently it's mentioned in the books. Dany herself frets over whether or not she has "the taint," and Barristan's comment about how Viserys was already taking after his father as a child also undoubtedly weighed on her mind. When a story continuously draws the reader's attention to something, it's bound to be important in one way or the other. Personally, I don't think Dany is going mad, but I think her efforts to retake the throne with her dragons is going to result in a great deal of destruction. (Which is one of the reasons why I find it suspicious when the maesters of TWOIAF claim the smallfolk were overjoyed by Aegon and his sisters' arrival. I doubt they were overjoyed to be killed in drones, along with their homes and crops).

Dany's arrival is likely to cause less deaths than Robb caused when he called his banners and took them to war.  The bickering between the Starks and the Lannisters caused more death than Aegon's Conquest.  Only the most stubborn of lords chose to fight while many wisely bent the knee and kept their lands if not their title of king.  Dany is the best thing that can happen to Westeros and the common people will welcome her arrival with open arms.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My reasons for thinking that Dany's arrival will result in bloodshed is because of the prophecy from one of the TWOW Arianne chapters ("wherever the dragons danced, the people died") and because of Aegon. Even with his impeccable upbringing, Aegon strikes me as young and impulsive, and right now he's probably feeling pretty good about himself. His landing in the Stormlands was a success, the Lannisters and Tyrells are falling apart, and Dorne is on the cusp of supporting his cause. Despite Jon Connington's wishes, I don't think Aegon is going to wait to make a marriage pact with Dany and rule Westeros alongside her. Chances are, he'll marry someone else (probably Arianne, but it could be a different woman) and in the height of his pride, he won't want to share power with his alleged long-lost aunt. Aegon will see Dany as a threat to his claim, and she will of course think the same of him. The fight for the Iron Throne will continue with these two, only this time it will include dragon fire, and possibly an accidental wildfire explosion as well. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

My reasons for thinking that Dany's arrival will result in bloodshed is because of the prophecy from one of the TWOW Arianne chapters ("wherever the dragons danced, the people died") and because of Aegon. Even with his impeccable upbringing, Aegon strikes me as young and impulsive, and right now he's probably feeling pretty good about himself. His landing in the Stormlands was a success, the Lannisters and Tyrells are falling apart, and Dorne is on the cusp of supporting his cause. Despite Jon Connington's wishes, I don't think Aegon is going to wait to make a marriage pact with Dany and rule Westeros alongside her. Chances are, he'll marry someone else (probably Arianne, but it could be a different woman) and in the height of his pride, he won't want to share power with his alleged long-lost aunt. Aegon will see Dany as a threat to his claim, and she will of course think the same of him. The fight for the Iron Throne will continue with these two, only this time it will include dragon fire, and possibly an accidental wildfire explosion as well. 

Castles and much less kingdoms do not pass without bloodshed.  Dany has as much right to take back Westeros as the Starks have the right to take back Winterfell.  Many Starks fans have no problem with the Starks calling for a lot of bloodshed to take back Winterfell.  Daenerys has the same rights to take back her throne.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Enzo Ferrari said:

Castles and much less kingdoms do not pass without bloodshed.  Dany has as much right to take back Westeros as the Starks have the right to take back Winterfell.  Many Starks fans have no problem with the Starks calling for a lot of bloodshed to take back Winterfell.  Daenerys has the same rights to take back her throne.   

If you look, you'll notice I never said whether it was right or wrong for Dany to fight for the throne, only that there would be casualties. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

If you look, you'll notice I never said whether it was right or wrong for Dany to fight for the throne, only that there would be casualties. 

Sure.  I was only commenting that bloodshed is the norm.  That's how they cast their votes.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think part of it is that the targeyeans were essentially raised as the absolute best. That tends to mess with someone's head. You can only marry another targeryean to keep the line pure. That may be for many reasons but if you believe your family is that special it goes to your head. That said I think every family has completly insane people but when it is a royal family it has much bigger consequences

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...
On 6/4/2017 at 11:31 AM, 300 H&H Magnum said:

All Robert would have to do is legitimize Gendry and tell everyone he's the new heir.  Cersei would contest.  The Waltz of the Stags would ensue and history would remember Robert as mad.

I will say the Valyrians of old did not suffer from madness.  They would not have been able to build the Freehold and rule among themselves if madness was prevalent.  I would even say that the Targaryens would not have been able to live among themselves in the tiny island of Dragonstone if madness had been prevalent.  So there is something to the loss of dragons having a negative impact on the family.

Or there is a conspiracy by the Citadel to undermine the Targaryen Dynasty.  If so, those elements within the Citadel will need to be rooted out and exposed.  And punished.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

I think it's mostly conceit and a flair for the dramatic. Targaryens were thought as demigods and lived more or less without consequences touching. These are circumstances that make up for colorful and extravgant personalities. The madness is relevant. There is nothing to suggest that Maegor was actually mentally ill. He was just wrathful, ruthless and ambitious. Likewise Aegon the fourth was supremely self-indulgent. 

The thing about the coin is just part of the mythos. Most Targaryens were neither mad nor great. What they do have that is congenital beyond all doubt and is unlikely to contribute to mental health and balance is precognitive dreams, which maybe the seed of truth behind this myth and has led some of them to extremes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 7 months later...
On 4/4/2017 at 0:24 AM, Damsel in Distress said:

Targaryen Madness is an Exaggeration

 

 

The prevalence of the madness that runs in the family is exaggerated.  A careful study of the Targaryen lineage shows that this madness is not as prevalent as critics would have us believe. 

 

  • Targaryen + Targaryen = Maegor the Cruel
  • Arryn + Targaryen = Rhaenyra
  • Hightower + Targaryen = Aegon II
  • Rogare + Targaryen = Aegon IV
  • Velaryon + Targaryen = Baelor the Blessed
  • Dayne + Targaryen = Aerion Brightflame
  • Kiera + Targaryen = Vaela
  • Targaryen + Targaryen = Aerys II

 

Underlined - female parent.

 

Italics – unclear whether these people were mad or simply just cruel. Vaela is likely someone who just had a below average mental capacity. 

 

What interests me most is that the majority of the “mad” members of the family were not the direct result of T + T but rather the result of what appears to be normal pairings.  A second item of note is that the madness happens more often when the mother comes from outside the family.  This can mean that the carriers of the madness are the male Targaryens.  Thirdly, because we are dealing with a fantasy world in which real genetics may not completely hold true, we can safely assume that anyone whose father is a Targaryen will have an equal chance of going mad as any other member of the family with a Targaryen father.  Notice also that we have not had a female Targaryen of whom we can clearly point out as mad.  None.  Alright, Rhaenyra was a b* but being a difficult person does not make one mad.  Maegor was a cruel ass but that doesn’t mean he was mad.   

 

Probable implications are as follows:

 

  1. The Targaryens are the most prominent family in the whole of A Song of Ice and Fire.  I do not believe George R R Martin will end this family line.  I think the family just needed a fresh start and based on my theory that the males carry the potentially damaging gene it makes sense to eliminate the male line and begin anew with a Targaryen female.  Who is, of course, the Mother of Dragons herself, Daenerys Targaryen.
  2. The Targaryen dragons also needed a refresh.  The Mother of Dragons delivers once more and hatched three eggs. 
  3. Daenerys Targaryen is just fine.  She will not go mad.  Her future children are not going to go mad as long as she picks a non-Targaryen to father them.  
  4. Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon.  Should this theory of his parentage prove to be true, that Rhaegar is the father, it is very possible that it will be Jon who will go mad. 

 My verdict?  Jon has a much greater chance of going mad than Daenerys.  

:)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/10/2017 at 5:05 AM, Lord Varys said:

The dragons didn't kill all that many people during the Wars of the Conquest. There were battles in the Crownlands, the Stormlands, the sea, and at Harrenhal. Most people most likely died during the sea battle, the Last Storm and the previous battles in the Stormlands, and the battles and burning of Harrenhal.

The Field of Fire was a major event but only hundreds died there, not thousands. And the Targaryens stood against 55,000 men in that battle.

It really seems if the smallfolk was pretty happy with their new overlords. Else KL wouldn't have grown as quickly as it did. The Conqueror and Queen Rhaenys were immensely popular.

100 Targaryen soldiers died. Thousands of their enemies died (4000 by fire, 1000 by sword and spear). 

“More than four thousand men died in the flames. Another thousand perished from sword and spears and arrows.”

“The Targaryens lost fewer than a hundred men.”

That said, I'd agree that excepting Dorne, the smallfolk really didn't die at the hands of the dragons in any appreciable numbers. That might have changed had Oldtown not opened its gates but open them they did.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

100 Targaryen soldiers died. Thousands of their enemies died (4000 by fire, 1000 by sword and spear). 

“More than four thousand men died in the flames. Another thousand perished from sword and spears and arrows.”

“The Targaryens lost fewer than a hundred men.”

That said, I'd agree that excepting Dorne, the smallfolk really didn't die at the hands of the dragons in any appreciable numbers. That might have changed had Oldtown not opened its gates but open them they did.

 

5000 casualties aka 10% for Field of Fire is in the province of indecisive battles or big skirmishes in history(ancient and medieval periods). The fact that the Lannisters and the Reach surrender after so little bloodshed is a big plus for how little the Targs were hated and Aegon diplomacy skills. I dint see the Field of Fire as a bloody battle.

The books make the Field of Fire as a bloody and bloodshed battle, but in reality it is a low casualty battle.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

100 Targaryen soldiers died. Thousands of their enemies died (4000 by fire, 1000 by sword and spear). 

Oh, my mistake. I misremembered the numbers.

But the general point was that of 55,000 enemy fighters only a tiny fraction died in the Field of Fire. This was neither a slaughter nor a particularly bloody battle.

It was a powerful and intimidating show of force and strategic acumen, but not cruel and bloody. It established Aegon as a man worthy of being the king of a united Realm. Who wouldn't want to swear fealty to a bad ass like that?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/4/2017 at 3:42 PM, The Mother of The Others said:

Uuuuuuuuuuuh,

At first glance it seems counter intuitive for targs to get crazier after dragons are gone...... i'd have scripted the time of madness for when a current mind meld exists with a living ridden dragon.   That's when predatory brainwaves would be washing into the rider's psyche, you'd think, and hyper aggressive "insane" behavior would surface.  ....but if that isn't when insanity strikes.......

Desperation, then.  Regular political desperation, plus something else that makes them hallucinate, on numerous occasions, the need to immolate, to become a dragon.    Their bloodline was codependent with the dragon link, and now that defunct link was stretched thin, to the breaking point.  ???      Or, my favorite new explanation:

What if the dying dragons transferred their consciousness into Targs, like Jon might shunt his awareness into the wolf upon the death of his human self.  

This would wonderfully explain the repeated targ impulse to transform bodily into a dragon by immolating themselves, their belief they ARE a real dragon...... is because they truly are one, or carry one inside, in mind.  The mental remnant seeks to reclaim its physical form, through magic, but the human vessels lack the needed magical fluency.  .....the dragons seem to think it's possible to succeed though!!   I'm electing to take them seriously.   Might be the fever dream of a fading dragon psyche, but then again we may see a successful immolation/phoenix birth as part of the magical finale to the series (!)     

 

 

Repeated means more than twice.  Something that occurred on a regular basis.  It is not a trait to burn themselves since very few over the span of three hundred years did.  I think the OP is right on this.  The madness is an exaggeration and much more, if not exclusive, to the male line of the Targaryen family. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, my mistake. I misremembered the numbers.

But the general point was that of 55,000 enemy fighters only a tiny fraction died in the Field of Fire. This was neither a slaughter nor a particularly bloody battle.

It was a powerful and intimidating show strategic acumen of force, but not cruel and bloody. It established Aegon as a man worthy of being the king of a united Realm. Who wouldn't want to swear fealty to a bad ass like that?

This is a good example of showing strength to avoid further challenges to your authority in the future.  It will save further loss of lives later on.  It certainly humbled the north enough for Torrhen to bend his knee because the odds were stacked against him.  Give Torrhen even a little bit of hope and the result would be more bloodshed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...