Ser Scot A Ellison Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 Despite Dunder Muffin's misapprehension there is no "right to drive" in the US: Quote http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-9th-circuit/1054787.html Yes i absolutely am. The license that i already have been issued by the State entitles me to drive. What you seem to believe is that once you have a license you have the "right to drive". What you fundamentally miss is that if you have to obtain a license undertake an activity then the activity is not a "right" it is an activity that can and will be restricted by the power of the State. If the State retains the power to license who may and may not engage in a particular activity that activity cannot be a "right": From the linked case: Quote Miller does not have a fundamental “right to drive.” In Dixon v. Love, 431 U.S. 105, 112-16, 97 S.Ct. 1723, 52 L.Ed.2d 172 (1977), the Supreme Court held that a state could summarily suspend or revoke the license of a motorist who had been repeatedly convicted of traffic offenses with due process satisfied by a full administrative hearing available only after the suspension or revocation had taken place. The Court conspicuously did not afford the possession of a driver's license the weight of a fundamental right. See also Mackey v. Montrym, 443 U.S. 1, 10, 99 S.Ct. 2612, 61 L.Ed.2d 321 (1979); Bell v. Burson, 402 U.S. 535, 539, 542-43, 91 S.Ct. 1586, 29 L.Ed.2d 90 (1971). In sum, Miller does not have a fundamental right to drive a motor vehicle, and the DMV did not unconstitutionally impede his right to interstate travel by denying him a driver's license. You are incorrect in your assertion that "driving" is a right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DunderMifflin Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 Right and entitlement are different words. I never mentioned rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted April 4, 2017 Author Share Posted April 4, 2017 DM, This is what you said: And I am entitled to drive my car. Legally, morally, and socially Im entitled to it. You are using the word "entitled" as though driving is a "right". It is not. The State has the power and authority to deny your license to drive. It is not an "entitlement". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 15 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said: Right and entitlement are different words. I never mentioned rights. #REALAMERICAN... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DunderMifflin Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 9 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: DM, This is what you said: You are using the word "entitled" as though driving is a "right". It is not. The State has the power and authority to deny your license to drive. It is not an "entitlement". Are you equating right and entitlement as the same meaning? In which case what are examples of legit entitlement and rights? Perhaps i can use them to fit my analogy better. Or are we saying they are fictional to begin with. Because all it takes is one vote in Congress or an executive order to make someones right not be a right anymore.(or just someone with power over you that doesn't play by the rules) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted April 4, 2017 Author Share Posted April 4, 2017 4 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said: Are you equating right and entitlement as the same meaning? In which case what are examples of legit entitlement and rights? Perhaps i can use them to fit my analogy better. Or are we saying they are fictional to begin with. Because all it takes is one vote in Congress or an executive order to make someones right not be a right anymore.(or just someone with power over you that doesn't play by the rules) No, not when the "right" is one that is Constitutionally guaranteed. The right to peaceful assembly, the right to free speech, the right to freely practice your religious faith, the right to trial by jury cannot be removed by a mere vote from Congress or an executive order. Both Congress and the President lack the power to take such express liberty rights from residents of the US. There is no such protection regarding the privilege of driving. There is not right or entitlement to drive in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DunderMifflin Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 11 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: No, not when the "right" is one that is Constitutionally guaranteed. The right to peaceful assembly, the right to free speech, the right to freely practice your religious faith, the right to trial by jury cannot be removed by a mere vote from Congress or an executive order. Both Congress and the President lack the power to take such express liberty rights from residents of the US. There is no such protection regarding the privilege of driving. There is not right or entitlement to drive in the US. So I'm not entitled to sit down in my chair? How about brushing my teeth? At what level does the law have to be involved and grant permission for me to be entitled to do something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted April 4, 2017 Author Share Posted April 4, 2017 9 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said: So I'm not entitled to sit down in my chair? How about brushing my teeth? At what level does the law have to be involved and grant permission for me to be entitled to do something? See, the 9th Amendment regarding your question above. As for Driving, the SCOTUS has expressly held that there is not "right to drive" and therefore "driving" cannot be an "entitlement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiDisaster Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 Scot, you have the patience of a saint I swear... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DunderMifflin Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 6 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: See, the 9th Amendment regarding your question above. As for Driving, the SCOTUS has expressly held that there is not "right to drive" and therefore "driving" cannot be an "entitlement. So you are coming from a position that there is no entitlement unless there is specific law protecting it? Entitlement can't exist in any form without a specific law? And that the possibility of taking away the entitlement existing makes it not be entitlement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted April 4, 2017 Author Share Posted April 4, 2017 2 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said: So you are coming from a position that there is no entitlement unless there is specific law protecting it? Entitlement can't exist in any form without a specific law? No, I'm saying there is no entitlement to Drive. That the SCOTUS has expressly held that Driving on the highways of the US or on State Roadways is not a "right" and therefore no one is "entitled" to drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DunderMifflin Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 20 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: No, I'm saying there is no entitlement to Drive. That the SCOTUS has expressly held that Driving on the highways of the US or on State Roadways is not a "right" and therefore no one is "entitled" to drive. So a right and entitlement are the same thing to you? They aren't to me. If I get a license, buy a car, get gas, and follow all laws, then Im completely entitled to be behind the wheel. As far as it being a right, the only importance that has for me is that the state would have to do something illegal or pass new laws in order to take away my driving entitlement. If im following all laws, what legal way can anyone take away my driving entitlement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted April 4, 2017 Author Share Posted April 4, 2017 6 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said: So a right and entitlement are the same thing to you? They aren't to me. If I get a license, buy a car, get gas, and follow all laws, then Im completely entitled to be behind the wheel. As far as it being a right, the only importance that has for me is that the state would have to do something illegal or pass new laws in order to take away my driving entitlement. If im following all laws, what legal way can anyone take away my driving entitlement? DM, But the State doesn't have to give you a license. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 Also this: Quote If I get a license, buy a car, get gas, and follow all laws, then Im completely entitled to be behind the wheel. is not remotely accurate. For instance, you can be denied the right to drive because of things like your eyesight, your health, etc. These aren't laws, either - these are policies. You can also be denied insurance for a car for absolutely no reason whatsoever. Your car ALSO has to be certified, and that also means you don't get to get behind any specific wheel. You can also be denied a license if you're on the list of people on the terrorist watch list. And that license? Can be revoked from you at any time, for all sorts of reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DunderMifflin Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 2 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: DM, But the State doesn't have to give you a license. If you meet the conditions for it they do. I don't think entitlement means unconditional. Because legal rights are certainly not unconditional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted April 4, 2017 Author Share Posted April 4, 2017 2 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said: If you meet the conditions for it they do. I don't think entitlement means unconditional. Because legal rights are certainly not unconditional. See, Kalbear's quote above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DunderMifflin Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 6 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: See, Kalbear's quote above. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DunderMifflin Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 5 minutes ago, Leap said: I'm not sure how it works in the US, or the UK for that matter, but doesn't the state only license you to drive in public areas? Do you require a license to drive on private property? Not sure, but it wouldn't help my agrument. My point relies on that people are allowed (I say entitled) to drive as long as they get the proper paperwork and aren't breaking laws even though it's dangerous and could easily end in hurting someone. The public roads are where the most danger from others is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 22 minutes ago, Leap said: Do you require a license to drive on private property? I don't believe so. I know a lot of folks who were raised rurally learn to drive at ages way younger than is legally allowed. Whether or not this is technically legal or not, I'm not sure, but it does occur with some frequency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiDisaster Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 24 minutes ago, Leap said: I'm not sure how it works in the US, or the UK for that matter, but doesn't the state only license you to drive in public areas? Do you require a license to drive on private property? Depends on the state I think. In Florida you can drive on private property without a license, but you can still get a DUI apparently. http://www.flduigroup.com/common-misconceptions-definition-of-within-this-state/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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