Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted April 14, 2017 Author Share Posted April 14, 2017 Just now, JonSnow4President said: Maybe this is just the result of 5 years of accounting education and 2 years in audit, but actual fraud is a much bigger deal than cheating (and I'm on the record as stating the NFL needs to retake high school science and think about the meaning of due process). Â It may well be in an overall legal sense, but it has zero impact on the result of any game. So it's a completely different sort of issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperry Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 Just now, JonSnow4President said: He was an SEC QB after all.... If Eli is involved, it is fraud.  But I guarantee Eli gets off lighter than Tom Brady, who allegedly let some air out of a football (and has a defense based on the laws of physics....)  He most likely will get off lighter than Brady. I'm guessing any victim will get a settlement and sign an NDA. As far as appropriate punishments, not sure what should happen. Discipline for on field stuff like the Patriots are generally accused of should not be compared to off-field punishments. As Manhole mentioned, things that impact the actual outcome of the game should be on a separate punishment scale.  In my mind, a DUI is much more concerning from a societal perspective than point shaving. But I'm in complete agreement that the appropriate punishment for a DUI should be a fine and a game or 2 suspension, while the point shaving should carry a lifetime ban. And plenty of room on that spectrum for other stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 I'm going to go after it a different way. I suspect that the NFL is going to go absolutely bonkers about this and slam the shit out of Eli here. (I'm not saying that they should or that it is right to do so, I am saying that's what they're going to do). The reason is that this goes after one of the most important things to the NFL that exists - the sanctity of merchandising. Brady potentially lying and being a dick goes against Goodell, and people beating their wives and raping people looks bad for the image, but if you can't actually trust the merchandise you're spending 300-500 a pop on? Oh, that's very bad for business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 25 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: It may well be in an overall legal sense, but it has zero impact on the result of any game. So it's a completely different sort of issue. On the game, I'd agree.  But he's (allegedly) using his capacity as an NFL player to commit that fraud, which I think the NFL would see as a huge issue, as Kalbear points out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted April 14, 2017 Author Share Posted April 14, 2017 56 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said: On the game, I'd agree.  But he's (allegedly) using his capacity as an NFL player to commit that fraud, which I think the NFL would see as a huge issue, as Kalbear points out. Sure, that's not a good look. Given the kind of money Eli makes though, does this make much sense? Seems to me he's as likely to be an unknowing victim of a fraudulent merch dealer here.  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 Just now, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: Sure, that's no a good luck. Given the kind of money Eli makes though, does this make much sense? Seems to me he's as likely to be an unknowing victim of a fraudulent merch dealer here.  Maybe? But it's again a huge deal. It's not about the money - it's about protecting the brand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted April 14, 2017 Author Share Posted April 14, 2017 1 minute ago, Kalbear said: Maybe? But it's again a huge deal. It's not about the money - it's about protecting the brand. Granted. I just find it a bit hard to believe that Manning would actively seek to defraud collectors for this amount of money. A 17k "game used" helmet? He makes that much brushing his teeth at the training facility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 Just now, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: Granted. I just find it a bit hard to believe that Manning would actively seek to defraud collectors for this amount of money. A 17k "game used" helmet? He makes that much brushing his teeth at the training facility. This is basically the same argument that says football players never rape anyone because they can get any woman they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted April 14, 2017 Author Share Posted April 14, 2017 Just now, Kalbear said: This is basically the same argument that says football players never rape anyone because they can get any woman they want. Um, if rape = fraud, I suppose? Not the same thing at all in my estimation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 Just now, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: Um, if rape = fraud, I suppose? Not the same thing at all in my estimation. Why not? You're saying Eli wouldn't do this because he doesn't need the money. They aren't the same crime, obviously, but your rationale why Eli wouldn't do this is precisely the same. People are stupid sometimes. Shockingly, people who get hit repeatedly in the head are also not 100% rational actors. Don't ignore evidence because you think it's irrational. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted April 14, 2017 Author Share Posted April 14, 2017 Just now, Kalbear said: Why not? You're saying Eli wouldn't do this because he doesn't need the money. They aren't the same crime, obviously, but your rationale why Eli wouldn't do this is precisely the same. People are stupid sometimes. Shockingly, people who get hit repeatedly in the head are also not 100% rational actors. Don't ignore evidence because you think it's irrational. Eh, I don't think the analogy works. Rape and sex are two very different things, number one. I'm not suggesting that I'd ignore evidence, I'm saying that once all the facts are in, I would be more surprised to find out that Manning is an active participant in the scam, and not an unwitting dupe. I'm also not suggesting that he shouldn't be held somewhat responsible for even that. He should have a better idea of who he's doing business with. If he's profiting from this (and I have to imagine he is) then he's culpable in either instance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 1 minute ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: Eh, I don't think the analogy works. Rape and sex are two very different things, number one. So is earning a salary and stealing or defrauding people. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted April 14, 2017 Author Share Posted April 14, 2017 3 minutes ago, Kalbear said: So is earning a salary and stealing or defrauding people.  Sure, that's a fair point. Just from a common sense sort of angle though, if you're making 20 million a year in salary alone, are you going to be likely to engage in this level of fraud? Seems like a bit of a stretch. I guess we won't know until all the facts are in.  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 Just now, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: Sure, that's a fair point. Just from a common sense sort of angle though, if you're making 20 million a year in salary alone, are you going to be likely to engage in this level of fraud? Seems like a bit of a stretch. I guess we won't know until all the facts are in.  Why does Trump stiff his painters out of $28k bills and end up having to pay $300k+? Shockingly, people committing crimes often do it for stupid, stupid reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted April 14, 2017 Author Share Posted April 14, 2017 4 minutes ago, Kalbear said: Why does Trump stiff his painters out of $28k bills and end up having to pay $300k+? Shockingly, people committing crimes often do it for stupid, stupid reasons. Because that typically isn't what happened. As I understand it, Trump businesses profited greatly from this tactic as most contractors were not willing or able to take them to court, and he'd pay pennies on the dollar on many of these transactions.  /Just to clarify, you may very well be right. Manning may just be an unscrupulous thief. That is certainly a possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swordfish Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 36 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: Granted. I just find it a bit hard to believe that Manning would actively seek to defraud collectors for this amount of money. A 17k "game used" helmet? He makes that much brushing his teeth at the training facility. It's possible he had some kind of contractual obligation though that amounted to more than the paltry sum of the stuff? No idea really, Just spitballing, but i agree, it seems odd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperry Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 Could be. Fortunately, this should be pretty easy to prove one way or the other, unlike rape allegations which are usually virtually impossible to prove. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperry Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 Also, Aaron Hernandez acquitted of the double murder. Patriots nation is vindicated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briantw Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 3 minutes ago, sperry said: Also, Aaron Hernandez acquitted of the double murder. Patriots nation is vindicated! Yes, now he only has to serve one life sentence instead of multiple consecutive ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 2 hours ago, Swordfish said: It's possible he had some kind of contractual obligation though that amounted to more than the paltry sum of the stuff? No idea really, Just spitballing, but i agree, it seems odd. It's possible he didn't care that much about the money involved, but wanted to keep his game-worn stuff despite the contractual obligation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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