So did Shireen's sacrifice postpone winter or not?

[A Ghost of Someone]

1 hour ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

Maybe there was a plot hole between how far that place was supposed to be from WF in s5 and then in s6 - point remains, they were in a situation where:
-they had just enough rations/etc. left to make it to WF and fight
-the loss of the food PLUS the cold meant they couldn't make it, or wouldn't be in the condition to fight when they arrived there

So saying that Stannis was "desperate to burn" Shireen just because there's some logical fuck up with the distances or whatever, is absurd.

The snow was the obstacle to move his army. They ate the dead horses that were left, the rest of the horses, half or so went with the deserters AFTER Shireen was burned.

[Pink Fat Rast]

Yeah but the loss of food made the situation more hopeless which is why Stannis agreed afterwards - though Mel made the suggestion before Ramsay burned the things.

So, yeah, I'm not sure how exactly that equation worked, but apparently the loss of rations made the Supercold Situation dire, but wasn't a fatal problem when it got warmer.
Doesn't the body need more food when it's cold to keep the temperature up... or something?

[Cas Stark]

LOL, they must have done a bad job with rationing all of those dead horses that Ramsay killed, if they were starving so soon afterwards.  But, I've ranted and raved about the many plot holes with this storyline and that isn't really the thrust of this thread.

So, to the OP point, no, Mel did not delay winter.  Sansa and Theon after they left WF were in deep snow...so the 'snow melt' must have been a very isolated and short term event.  But then I think trying to piece together where there is/was/wasn't snow in the show is pretty pointless, it just isn't something they are consistent with.  Sansa and Theon jump and are walking in snow filled woods...yet the Ramsay battle...there is no snow.  It's a convenience issue, IMO, not a plot thing.

[Pink Fat Rast]

Wait, I thought there was snow during the 1st Ramsay battle? Like, it looked different from the 2nd?

The concept was that the warmth started slowly spreading around the sacrifice site - so it hadn't yet reached WF by the time of S5E10, but it did by S6, and then reverted back in S6E10.

That was the idea... but I'll go check out those scenes again if I got any false memories

[Darkstream]

5 hours ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

They saved money for big action scenes, but not for Wun Wun swinging a stick around? Okey dokey.

Actually that is true. Unfortunately, I could not find the link. I do however recall seeing the interview, where I believe it was the director, stated this. It is also the only reason that Wun Wun was used, and Ghost was cut.

Quote

"[Ghost] was in there in spades originally, but it's also an incredibly time consuming and expensive character to bring to life," the episode's director Miguel Sapochnik told Business Insider. 

"Ultimately we had to choose between Wun Wunand the direwolf, so the dog bit the dust."

 

[Pink Fat Rast]

Weird - one would've thought they could do some kinda practical thing with a huge stick poking at the soldiers and then edit it together; there were enough stunts and practical effects in that sequence, weren't there?


But yeah, getting the dragons wrong probably would've been more detrimental to the episode than Wun Wun without a stick. He did have one in Hardhome, and apparently that's why some dragon shots in E9 looked shite - or according to some at least, as it looked fine to me *shrug*

[Pink Fat Rast]

Yeah they got their priorities mixed up don't they

[Byfort of Corfe]

5 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

LOL, they must have done a bad job with rationing all of those dead horses that Ramsay killed, if they were starving so soon afterwards.  But, I've ranted and raved about the many plot holes with this storyline and that isn't really the thrust of this thread.

So, to the OP point, no, Mel did not delay winter.  Sansa and Theon after they left WF were in deep snow...so the 'snow melt' must have been a very isolated and short term event.  But then I think trying to piece together where there is/was/wasn't snow in the show is pretty pointless, it just isn't something they are consistent with.  Sansa and Theon jump and are walking in snow filled woods...yet the Ramsay battle...there is no snow.  It's a convenience issue, IMO, not a plot thing.

To be fair did Ramsay slaughter the horses or did he just run them off.  In a raid situation you generally didn't take the time to kill large numbers of animals, you cut the horse lines and run them off.

[Byfort of Corfe]

20 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

lol, nailed it.

Wow, so you mean that a fictional show puts things in that show as plot devices that change an audience's emotions?  No kidding, have you told anyone else about this brave new discovery?

[Darkstream]

On 05/04/2017 at 3:25 PM, Pink Fat Rast said:

As I said - there's a nice thread for talking nonsense "without repercussions", it's named that way for a reason.
 

Actually, the reason for the r&r thread is because when rational and legitimate criticisms of the show were being discussed on other threads, posters making these comments were attacked and harrased by show apologist. This thread gave the members who wanted to discuss these issues, instead of turning a blind eye to them, a place to converse. The reason for the no repercussions is because members who were too insecure in their stance that the show was perfect, would frequent this thread with the sole intent of harrassing the members in there, and purposely made offensive and inappropriate comments in an attempt to have the thread locked.

---

Ok, here is another issue with Stannis burning his heir and daughter. As far as he believes, burning a few leeches with the blood of a king's bastard was successful in eliminating four contenders for the iron throne. Would he not attempt this again, or something similar, to simply melt some snow? One would think, especially seeing as the show, just prior to burning Shireen went out of their way to emphasize how much he loved her, and how important she was to him, that he would exhaust all other possible options before just abruptly deciding to torch Shireen.

Unfortunately, d&d do not consider factors such as this, because they know the response that this scene would receive, and thus they wanted it included, logic be damned. And it's the only reason that they retroactively emphasized the relationship between the two. Just so that this sacrifice would have more of an emotional impact on the viewers. There goal is not to tell a logical story, it's all about shock and awe.

[Darkstream]

7 minutes ago, Byfort of Corfe said:

Wow, so you mean that a fictional show puts things in that show as plot devices that change an audience's emotions?  No kidding, have you told anyone else about this brave new discovery?

The issue is that unlike in the books, where these emotional responses come naturally from logical and believable situations and actions, d&d disregard logic in order to force these scenes in. That is not good story telling, that is just sensationalism.

[A Ghost of Someone]

2 hours ago, Byfort of Corfe said:

Wow, so you mean that a fictional show puts things in that show as plot devices that change an audience's emotions?  No kidding, have you told anyone else about this brave new discovery?

Sarcasm, very well, not new in regards to this show. Very sloppy writing masked with expensive CGI and the massive corporate umbrella of media overhype that HBO is a part of.

[Darkstream]

1 minute ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Sarcasm, very well, not new in regards to this show. Very sloppy writing masked with expensive CGI and the massive corporate umbrella of media that HBO is a part of.

Nailed it!

[Pink Fat Rast]

8 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

So, to the OP point, no, Mel did not delay winter.  Sansa and Theon after they left WF were in deep snow...so the 'snow melt' must have been a very isolated and short term event.  But then I think trying to piece together where there is/was/wasn't snow in the show is pretty pointless, it just isn't something they are consistent with.  Sansa and Theon jump and are walking in snow filled woods...yet the Ramsay battle...there is no snow.  It's a convenience issue, IMO, not a plot thing.

Alright I rewatched it and yeah - the Ramsay battle, there totally was lots of snow

[Pink Fat Rast]

26 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Sarcasm, very well, not new in regards to this show. Very sloppy writing masked with expensive CGI and the massive corporate umbrella of media overhype that HBO is a part of.

Awww... are you sure those 2 things are the only things "masking" the "sloppy writing"?

Need I remind you that the only (substantial) reason people complain about this show in the first place, is because it's failing to live up to its own claims and ambitions of consistency, realism and complexity - had it just been sold as a "fantasy show", people would be laughing at all the inappropriate plot hole criticism and it would be considered a great genre show all around.

And mere "CGI and marketing" are nowhere near enough to create a great show - feel free to list all the factors that would go into that, I doubt they'll fit on 10 fingers lmao

[Pink Fat Rast]

3 hours ago, Darkstream said:

The issue is that unlike in the books, where these emotional responses come naturally from logical and believable situations and actions, d&d disregard logic in order to force these scenes in. That is not good story telling, that is just sensationalism.

Do you consider the RW plot hole free - in the show or especially in the books?

I assume yes, so now imagine it had plot holes in it - let's say the "Robb absolutely needs the Twins for strategy" plot point was horrible contradicted in some preceding chapter, and it would end up a contrived circumstance to lead to the tragic turn of events.


Well, guess what: dramatically speaking it would still be almost as good as the logical version - it would lose the prestige of "grounded realism", but it would retain the drama, the impact, the "message/lesson", and pretty much everything else that people appreciate about it.

The "storytelling" wouldn't turn into "sensationalism" whatever that means; the "drama" wouldn't turn into "emotional manipulation"; and Robb wouldn't go from shortsighted hero to suicidal guy desperate to get stabbed - the way all you GRRRRRR people keep insisting.
Assume the worst about the sacrifice plot - short walking distance, no realistic reason why they shouldn't have been able to reach WF and have a winning chance in the battle, contradictions with previously established blood magic rules etc. etc., and it'll still remain a valid, greatly executed dramatic plot point.

 

And that's how you do reasonable criticysm.

[Pink Fat Rast]

3 hours ago, Darkstream said:

Actually, the reason for the r&r thread is because when rational and legitimate criticisms of the show were being discussed on other threads, posters making these comments were attacked and harrased by show apologist. This thread gave the members who wanted to discuss these issues, instead of turning a blind eye to them, a place to converse. The reason for the no repercussions is because members who were too insecure in their stance that the show was perfect, would frequent this thread with the sole intent of harrassing the members in there, and purposely made offensive and inappropriate comments in an attempt to have the thread locked.

---

Some of what you consider "rational and legitimate criticisms", are anything but - and some of what you consider to be "apologism" (apahlagism), is the actual "rational and legitimate" perspective.

As the guy who just yesterday admitted to "not paying attention cause it's a chore to", no wonder your perspective's a bit skewed.

 

Quote

Ok, here is another issue with Stannis burning his heir and daughter. As far as he believes, burning a few leeches with the blood of a king's bastard was successful in eliminating four contenders for the iron throne. Would he not attempt this again, or something similar, to simply melt some snow? One would think, especially seeing as the show, just prior to burning Shireen went out of their way to emphasize how much he loved her, and how important she was to him, that he would exhaust all other possible options before just abruptly deciding to torch Shireen.

Unfortunately, d&d do not consider factors such as this, because they know the response that this scene would receive, and thus they wanted it included, logic be damned. And it's the only reason that they retroactively emphasized the relationship between the two. Just so that this sacrifice would have more of an emotional impact on the viewers. There goal is not to tell a logical story, it's all about shock and awe.

Those issues were addressed - Stannis brought up leeches and then Melisandre said that wouldn't do anything.

They could've been addressed more exhaustively if needed - all that would've done is improved the depth of the story, it wouldn't have prevented them from going through with this plot development.


In the same way that including an exhaustive discussion between Jon and Alliser in s5e9 wouldn't have prevented the Jon stabbing - so your view that they "damned logic just so they could do the burning" is inherently backwards.

And why do you think was the RW written the way it was? In broad strokes, it was for the same reason: the emotional impact it would receive.
It wasn't a natural consequence of the logic and geography of Westeros - it was created for emotional and dramatic impact and story structure etc., and then the logic and geography were written around it; apparently more impeccably than here.

[A Ghost of Someone]

32 minutes ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

Awww... are you sure those 2 things are the only things "masking" the "sloppy writing"?

Need I remind you that the only (substantial) reason people complain about this show in the first place, is because it's failing to live up to its own claims and ambitions of consistency, realism and complexity - had it just been sold as a "fantasy show", people would be laughing at all the inappropriate plot hole criticism and it would be considered a great genre show all around.

And mere "CGI and marketing" are nowhere near enough to create a great show - feel free to list all the factors that would go into that, I doubt they'll fit on 10 fingers lmao

Huge budget and the HBO time Warner media juggernaut that creates massive buzz has a major impact on this show's perception in the public eye. This has carried the show through the downright lazy writing. This is especially true n regards to how apparently D&D wanted to create a scenario to have Shireen burned to death and then, the very next season have an army camp there at the same spot before being at the walls of winterfell by noon the next day. Either they do not care of are really stupid.

 

[Pink Fat Rast]

22 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Huge budget and the HBO time Warner media juggernaut that creates massive buzz has a major impact on this show.

As I said, lots of factors aside from those 2 have a "major impact on the show" and "carry it through downright lazy writing" - factors that all, in combination, amount to "quality TV".

So in other words, GoT being a quality show all around carries it through the lazy writing

[A Ghost of Someone]

21 minutes ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

As I said, lots of factors aside from those 2 have a "major impact on the show" and "carry it through downright lazy writing" - factors that all, in combination, amount to "quality TV".

So in other words, GoT being a quality show all around carries it through the lazy writing

Smoke and mirrors, along with masses of paid advertisers under the guise of critics and non bias journalists that drive the masses/herd in the direction or mentality they want them to go.