Jump to content

NBA 2017: Playoffs? Playoffs?!


Relic

Recommended Posts

11 minutes ago, Triskan said:

They seem like an extremely fluky top seed like they played the regular season like it was the playoffs when everyone else was pacing themselves.  They desperately need to come back and get this game.

I kind of thought the second round would go down like this, but Jesus, I didn't expect it in the first round as a first seed. Would Butler have made this team capable of beating the Cavs, let along the Warriors? I am still fine with not pursuing Butler or George (though both have been way more impressive than I thought) but I am still pissed they didn't go for Ibaka or some other person capable of grabbing a fucking rebound.

There have been a number of dubious honors earned in Boston this year:

Rick Porcello's Cy Young: sorta dubious

LeGarrette Blount's NFL-leading 18 rushing TDs: pretty dubious

Celtics number one seed: completely fraudulent

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, briantw said:

Celtics might earn the dubious honor of being the first one seed to be swept in NBA history.  I believe this is already the first time an eight seed has gone up 2-0.

The Suns as a #1 seed went down 2-0 against the Lakers back in 1993, but then went on to win the series 3-2.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Weird season as a Bulls fan. I just hated this team for so much of the regular season. Rondo and Wade are two of my least favorite players ever, mostly due to their teams being rivals of mine over the years. I thought the Bulls were as likely to come unhinged against a hot Boston team as it was likely they'd win a hard-fought series. I did not expect Boston's depth to totally fail; outside of Thomas, they just look awful. And in that 4th quarter, his mental and physical exhaustion showed. Was an exciting win, to be sure. I think any chatter regarding trading Butler is gone, now, thank god.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, James Arryn said:

The narrative is the thing. Westbrook's defined the season because of that story being preferred. Reverse their popularity and the story would be about a 30 ppg shooting guard playing the point for the first time in his life and arguably becoming the best of a stacked point guard class and leading a bunch of role players to historic output. That's a pretty sexy story itself. Has anything like it ever happene before? I know MJ tried it for a while one season but they dropped it, mostly because he basically kept playing the same way. Harden, meanwhile, pretty seriously changed how he played and dominated. But, largely, a non-story.

Pro basketball reference has a formula for determining MVP voting. It's not a formula of merit, but rather they have taken all prior winners within the context of their seasons and determined how/why people are chosen.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/mvp.html

 

So, by previously established measurements, Harden is easily the MVP, almost twice as likely as Westbrook to win. Durant in fact ought to be second, still well back. But we all know that historical patterns won't matter here, and IMO if we're honest we all know why.

These are all very fair points. I think a lot of it comes down to people don't really enjoy watching Harden play. In comparison Westbrook destroying the world is an event. His freakishness was always compelling, but with Durant leaving there's now a righteousness to it. And his season's had way more cinematic moments from 38 foot game winners to 10 points in the final two minutes type comebacks. Just feels like an MVP type season in every way except team wins.

ETA: Wow, Celtics. I get that this is the weakest #1 seed in at least a decade but did not expect this Bulls team to be a threat to anyone.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Argonath Diver said:

Weird season as a Bulls fan. I just hated this team for so much of the regular season. Rondo and Wade are two of my least favorite players ever, mostly due to their teams being rivals of mine over the years. I thought the Bulls were as likely to come unhinged against a hot Boston team as it was likely they'd win a hard-fought series. I did not expect Boston's depth to totally fail; outside of Thomas, they just look awful. And in that 4th quarter, his mental and physical exhaustion showed. Was an exciting win, to be sure. I think any chatter regarding trading Butler is gone, now, thank god.

I basically couldn't wait for the season to end, but they've somehow come together and resemble an actual decent team the last few weeks. It's amazing what happens when guys like Zipser and Rondo actually contribute. Rajon was a beast all game and was like a gnat defensively always putting pressure on Thomas. As a team they're just bringing so much more energy than Boston, especially on the defensive end. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

The reason people hate Harden is because most of time he is the one committing the foul or flopping to get the call and the refs always bail him out. 

Exactly this.

At some point, these MVP arguments need to take into account the fact that a few years ago, NBA refs collectively agreed to call a foul every single time Harden travels, throws himself to the poor defender and throw his arms in the air.  And repeat this 8-10 times every single game...

 

It is hard to distinguish Harden and Westbrook based on the stats.  I like to think "What would have happened to the two teams if you switched the two?"  I think Houston will be the same or better, and Westbrook will easily have more assists (though potentially less points).  I think OKC will easily be worse and Harden will definitely have less assists, probably significantly so.  (No easy assists from outside shooters, no super-athletic bigs for easy rolls to the rim).  Actually, I think if Harden was saddled with this OKC team, he would have demoralized very early on in the season and would have checked out like he did in the past (though obviously we have no way of knowing that for sure). 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Jaime L said:

These are all very fair points. I think a lot of it comes down to people don't really enjoy watching Harden play. In comparison Westbrook destroying the world is an event. His freakishness was always compelling, but with Durant leaving there's now a righteousness to it. And his season's had way more cinematic moments from 38 foot game winners to 10 points in the final two minutes type comebacks. Just feels like an MVP type season in every way except team wins.

ETA: Wow, Celtics. I get that this is the weakest #1 seed in at least a decade but did not expect this Bulls team to be a threat to anyone.

 

Agree with everything you're saying here. And I mean, for a long time some awards have been at least in part popularity/name recognition contests, most notably stuff like All Defense and Gold Gloves. That an MVP will be in part a reflection on that isn't really worth massive outcry. I do feel for Harden a bit, though...he'll likely never get one no matter how deserving, unless it's like one of those honourably Oscars they award to a golden oldie who they're kind of embarrassed never won. And I do get the aesthetics...he's kind of like jazz or fusion cuisinine, an acquired taste that at first seems unremarkable if not unappetizing. I enjoy him more intellectually, like a quarterback or a true pitcher rather than standing in awe of the sheer physical spectacle. Growing up on Vince Carter's pre-knee prime kind of raised the bar on that for me anyways, and tbh no one since has bumped it. 

Here's treat; http://www.slamonline.com/media/slam-tv/watch-nba-vince-carter-ultimate-toronto-raptors-mixtape/#J7sOzdbUmKu1DpgP.97

For sheer wowness, I'll be surprised if anyone tops him. 

Getting back to the MVP thing, I'll probably be more dissapointed by how one sided I expect the voting to go rather than Westbrook winning it. He's a hell of a player, and fun to watch, and I get the righteous narrative, though I tend to side with the players in these city vs. fanbase arguments as no player I've ever seen is as fickle/hypocritical as most fan bases are. But anyways, Westbrook's had a fantastic year and it being recognized won't be a crime. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let's not forget the times when Harden totally quit on his team,  and appeared completely uninterested in doing anything in the court that wasn't scoring. Really clouded the perception of him as a player. 

Moving on,  I predict the Celtics tie it up by winning the next two in Chicago IF they can get some bodies on the glass and haul down some rebounds. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, briantw said:

Boston looking like pretenders.  Should have pulled the trigger on that George trade.

It's debatable.

If they made a trade, it should have been for Butler. George and Butler are similar talents, but Butler has a better contract and George would essentially be a one and a half year rental. 

The reason you don't make the trade, and I think it's a legitimate one, is because James' window is still two-three years, which would be the life of both contracts. The Celtics have probably maximized their current roster, so it makes a ton of sense to hold on to two top three potential picks. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was really surprised at how ineffective the Celtics defense was against Rondo in particular.  Rondo wasn't driving as much as he used to, but he didn't have to.  He had passing lanes all over the place, and Thomas doesn't have the length to bother him at all.  If they can't make things harder for him, this series is already over. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Question on Rondo... the Celtics fans booed him during introductions of game one.  Why?  He didn't leave on bad terms did he?  Is it just a northeast thing?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Rhom said:

Question on Rondo... the Celtics fans booed him during introductions of game one.  Why?  He didn't leave on bad terms did he?  Is it just a northeast thing?

It's hard to speak for others, but for me, he was pretty selfish and counter-productive at the end of his time here, and the dissolution of his career since he left has validated the critiques against him -- he didn't care enough unless it was a national game, he got into squabbles with coaches and teammates, he sacrificed more efficient or effective plays to pad his assist totals...

But maybe they're booing him because he's a former player that is using his knowledge of the Celts very effectively against them? Pretty good Ringer analysis today that points out Rondo's playoff re-awakening is one of the reasons the Celtics are having such trouble.

https://theringer.com/2017-nba-playoffs-boston-celtics-chicago-bulls-game-2-b162f42ad989

Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

Could be a matter of playoff experience in the celts - bulls series.

Bulls have rondo, wade, and even Butler who have tons of postseason experience. When you look at celtics roster there's not quite as much experience there.

Experience and also physicality. It's kinda amazing to watch the Bulls with their early 2000s style beat up on a 2017 perimeter oriented team. Kelly Olynyk is tissue paper soft and Sideshow Bob has been eating his lunch. Not sure there's a 4 or 5 on the Celtics roster with any kind of toughness. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Jaime L said:

Experience and also physicality. It's kinda amazing to watch the Bulls with their early 2000s style beat up on a 2017 perimeter oriented team. Kelly Olynyk is tissue paper soft and Sideshow Bob has been eating his lunch. Not sure there's a 4 or 5 on the Celtics roster with any kind of toughness. 

Which makes me wonder what is going to happen if the Celtics do get out of this series and (hopefully) face the Wizards.  Gortat and Morris are going after Atlanta at least as hard as the Bulls have been doing, and Wall/Beal are probably even more physical than Wade/Rondo.  Although admittedly, Butler is a very powerful and the Wiz don't have anyone like him. 

EDIT: I actually think that after the drama in the regular season that Wall and Co might be disappointed if they didn't get to play Boston.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Which makes me wonder what is going to happen if the Celtics do get out of this series and (hopefully) face the Wizards.  Gortat and Morris are going after Atlanta at least as hard as the Bulls have been doing, and Wall/Beal are probably even more physical than Wade/Rondo.  Although admittedly, Butler is a very powerful and the Wiz don't have anyone like him. 

EDIT: I actually think that after the drama in the regular season that Wall and Co might be disappointed if they didn't get to play Boston.

Yeah one thing that really stood out watching game 1 against the Hawks was Morris' physical defense on Millsap which really frustrated him. And the Polish Hammer's definitely not a rim protector but he is a physical presence.

Think things are setting up very nicely for the Wizards as I don't fear the Bulls at all so will continue to root for them. Celtics are a tougher matchup as the Wizards defense is still often really shaky, especially in defending the 3 ball and admittedly it'd be a damn shame to miss out on the second round grudge match.

Whatever. Wizards just need to keep their focus up against the Hawks and not worry about 2nd round opponents. There's no question in my mind the Wizards are the better team with a much higher ceiling, but that doesn't mean they'll continue to match the Hawks' mental toughness. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, Jaime L said:

Whatever. Wizards just need to keep their focus up against the Hawks and not worry about 2nd round opponents. There's no question in my mind the Wizards are the better team with a much higher ceiling, but that doesn't mean they'll continue to match the Hawks' mental toughness. 

The Wizards are not a good enough team to be looking past anybody.  However, the Hawks are a very uninspiring 5 seed.  I personally think that with a healthy John Wall we would have beaten them in 2015, because Beal was causing a ton of problems for Atlanta.  Since then, they have shipped off virtually all of the talent that got them to the ECF, and replaced it with...nothing much.  In contrast, this Wizards team is more talented, more experienced and better coached than they were in 2015.   

So all this adds up to "the Wizards definitely should beat Atlanta".  Now they just have to actually go out and do it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 18-4-2017 at 5:25 PM, Relic said:

Becuase he's a lazy, half senile, arrogant prick who doesn't feel he needs to change a thing about himself by virtue of having coached Michael Jordan, Pippen, Shaq, and Kobe. 

I still have a hardcover of Jackson's new book "Eleven Rings" in my Amazon shopping cart.

19 hours ago, Ramsay B. said:

Sideshow Bob having a game.

Robin Lopez was impressive again. He's just so big and physical, the Celtics can't deal with it.

Bulls are better off with him than they would have been with Noah.

18 hours ago, briantw said:

Celtics might earn the dubious honor of being the first one seed to be swept in NBA history.  I believe this is already the first time an eight seed has gone up 2-0.

Al Horford needs to wake up. 7 points last night, this guy was hailed as the big piece that would get Boston to seriously contend.

 

19 hours ago, James Arryn said:

 

So, by previously established measurements, Harden is easily the MVP, almost twice as likely as Westbrook to win. Durant in fact ought to be second, still well back. But we all know that historical patterns won't matter here, and IMO if we're honest we all know why.

Look, Westbrook's been a proper Beast this season. He deserves it, and his season is one that will linger long in people's memories.

I do enjoy watching Harden a great deal as well by the way, and aal credit to him for being a genuine wizard on the floor. But Russ has been an animal and you have to appreciate that.

4 hours ago, Jaime L said:

Yeah one thing that really stood out watching game 1 against the Hawks was Morris' physical defense on Millsap which really frustrated him. And the Polish Hammer's definitely not a rim protector but he is a physical presence.

Whatever. Wizards just need to keep their focus up against the Hawks and not worry about 2nd round opponents. There's no question in my mind the Wizards are the better team with a much higher ceiling, but that doesn't mean they'll continue to match the Hawks' mental toughness. 

I'm still somewhat nervous about this series. I bet money on the Wizards and aside from that I really want them to win because they are a charismatic team. BUt I don't trust the Hawks, I never do, and I was loathe to bet against them. They are unpredictable and their Spurs like "team first, we have no stars here" concept oftentimes works when they need it.

And it's true, they really don't have *any* stars anymore, even Howard has lost a lot of shine. But still, they are dangerous, and I worry that the Wizards aren't focused enough.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...