NBA 2017: Playoffs? Playoffs?!

[Jaime L]

The internet has peaked today. 

[Relic]

1 hour ago, Maithanet said:

I agree with this, and it ties into my point which is that the depth of talent in the NBA has never been better.  Virtually every team in the NBA has at least one, if not several, international players starting.  That wasn't the case in the 90s and earlier.  There are a lot of guys that would be starters in the NBA in the 80s or 90s that are riding the pine now.

Probably. But it would be fun to compare and contrast. Name your top 20 from 2012 to 2017,  and then give us a 5 year era from 1980 to 2000 to do the same with. 

[Maithanet]

7 minutes ago, Relic said:

Probably. But it would be fun to compare and contrast. Name your top 20 from 2012 to 2017,  and then give us a 5 year era from 1980 to 2000 to do the same with. 

Are you volunteering to put together the second list?  Because I don't know enough about the NBA in say, 1985-90 to put together a good list. 

[Relic]

43 minutes ago, Jaime L said:

The internet has peaked today. 

Holy fuck. I read that article just now and now I love Dion Waiters. 

[Relic]

2 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Are you volunteering to put together the second list?  Because I don't know enough about the NBA in say, 1985-90 to put together a good list. 

Sure. Me or anyone else who wants to try. I'll give it a good 20 minutes of research. 

[Maithanet]

All right, here's a quick stab at it I put together.  I'm probably biased against players who don't play defense, which is why guys like Carmelo and Kevin Love aren't on the list.  It's also hardest to measure guys who's careers are ending in this era, like Kobe, who had his last great season in 2012-13.

Top 20 NBA Players of five year 2012-2017 era. 

PG (6) Chris Paul, Steph Curry, Russell Westbrook, Tony Parker, John Wall, Damien Lillard

SG (2) James Harden, Klay Thompson

SF(4) Lebron James, Kevin Durant, Paul George, Kawhi Leonard

PF (6) Lamarcus Aldridge, Tim Duncan, Draymond Green, Blake Griffin, Dirk Nowitzki, Chris Bosh

C (2) Anthony Davis, Marc Gasol

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

3 hours ago, Fez said:

That was never my intention though. My point is merely that this current era is the most talented in NBA history, for a wide variety of factors. Yes, those factors would benefit players from other eras if they had access to them; but that only further serves the point. And on top of that, the current players (who know how to play defense at least) would be even better than they are now if they access to the rules from earlier eras. They benefit on both ends from the comparison.

I know, and I wasn't calling anyone out specifically. I just wanted to point out that it would prudent to consider as many factors as possible.

That said, it's probably a better idea to look backwards with modern players than vice versa.

1 hour ago, Relic said:

Holy fuck. I read that article just now and now I love Dion Waiters. 

I'm glad people are starting to recognize my Dion Waiter's greatness. 

[Relic]

2 hours ago, Maithanet said:

All right, here's a quick stab at it I put together.  I'm probably biased against players who don't play defense, which is why guys like Carmelo and Kevin Love aren't on the list.  It's also hardest to measure guys who's careers are ending in this era, like Kobe, who had his last great season in 2012-13.

Top 20 NBA Players of five year 2012-2017 era. 

PG (6) Chris Paul, Steph Curry, Russell Westbrook, Tony Parker, John Wall, Damien Lillard

SG (2) James Harden, Klay Thompson

SF(4) Lebron James, Kevin Durant, Paul George, Kawhi Leonard

 

PF (6) Lamarcus Aldridge, Tim Duncan, Draymond Green, Blake Griffin, Dirk Nowitzki, Chris Bosh

 

C (2) Anthony Davis, Marc Gasol

 

Hmmm, ok so...

Top 20 NBA Players of five year 1985-1990 era. I gotta say, plus or minus a few players, i think my squad can ball with your squad any day. 

PG (4) Isiah Tomas, Magic Johnson, John Stockton, Kevin Johnson

SG (4) Michael Jordan, Clyde Drexler, Bernard King, Dale Ellis

SF(3) Larry Bird, Dominique Wilkins, Alex English, Adrian Dantley 

PF (4) Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Kevin HcHale, Tom Chambers

C (5) Hakeem Olajuwon, Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Moses Malone, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, 

[briantw]

1 minute ago, Relic said:

Hmmm, ok so...

Top 20 NBA Players of five year 1985-1990 era. I gotta say, plus or minus a few players, i think my squad can ball with your squad any day. 

PG (4) Isiah Tomas, Magic Johnson, John Stockton, Kevin Johnson

SG (4) Michael Jordan, Clyde Drexler, Bernard King, Dale Ellis

SF(3) Larry Bird, Dominique Wilkins, Alex English, Adrian Dantley 

PF (4) Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Kevin HcHale, Tom Chambers

C (5) Hakeem Olajuwon, Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Moses Malone, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, 

Jordan would blackball Thomas from that team like he did from Team USA.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Just now, briantw said:

Jordan would blackball Thomas from that team like he did from Team USA.

Replace him with Gary Payton. No worries.

[Maithanet]

13 minutes ago, Relic said:

Hmmm, ok so...

Top 20 NBA Players of five year 1985-1990 era. I gotta say, plus or minus a few players, i think my squad can ball with your squad any day.

There are a couple of problems with this kind of comparison though. 

One, when you list players like that, it's very hard to remember how good these players were in the 85-90 period, as opposed to how good they are in general.  Kareem's last great season was 85-86.  Kevin Johnson wasn't an impact player until 1989 at the earliest.  David Robinson only entered the league in the 1989-90 season.  If we're going for "big name players that played in 2012-2017", I would definitely include Dwayne Wade, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, etc.  All of those guys were still great in 2012, but had completely fallen off by 2014 and didn't seem worth including. 

Secondly, my point is more applicable to the depth of the NBA than it is to the stars. In the 1991-92 season, there were 23 international NBA players.  That number has increased to  113 this year.  While the league has increased from 27 to 30 teams, that is still an increase from 5.6% of the league in the early nineties to just over 25% today.  This increase is difficult to see when we're just talking stars. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

3 hours ago, Jaime L said:

The internet has peaked today. 

"You know what? I'm just gonna fucking ball out."

 

/I will be working this phrase into my everyday conversations, toot sweet.

[DunderMifflin]

53 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

 

Secondly, my point is more applicable to the depth of the NBA than it is to the stars. In the 1991-92 season, there were 23 international NBA players.  That number has increased to  113 this year.  While the league has increased from 27 to 30 teams, that is still an increase from 5.6% of the league in the early nineties to just over 25% today.  This increase is difficult to see when we're just talking stars. 

What does international players have to do with comparing eras?

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

4 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

What does international players have to do with comparing eras?

The talent pool is much deeper now. It is now a truly international game.

[Maithanet]

3 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

What does international players have to do with comparing eras?

The pool from which the NBA draws is much larger today than it was in the 80s and 90s.  If the NBA consisted of 95% American players (as it was in the early 90s), then the NBA would be less talented.

[DunderMifflin]

1 hour ago, Maithanet said:

The pool from which the NBA draws is much larger today than it was in the 80s and 90s.  If the NBA consisted of 95% American players (as it was in the early 90s), then the NBA would be less talented.

I debate you'd find many more international difference makers in the early 90s than there were. The sport itself wasn't as global back then, almost all the best international players at least got their shot in the nba. The rest of the world is catching up to the talent of USA basketball. They aren't caught up but are much more caught up than they were in the 90s. Divac, Petrovic, Hakeem were probably the best of the early 90s era. Other foreign players got a shot but fizzled out or were relegated to bench duty. I don't see that as a blight on 90s players just because there weren't enough good foreign guys out there yet.

 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

7 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

I debate you'd find many more international difference makers in the early 90s than there were. The sport itself wasn't as global back then, almost all the best international players at least got their shot in the nba. The rest of the world is catching up to the talent of USA basketball. They aren't caught up but are much more caught up than they were in the 90s. Divac, Petrovic, Hakeem were probably the best of the early 90s era. Other foreign players got a shot but fizzled out or were relegated to bench duty. I don't see that as a blight on 90s players just because there weren't enough good foreign guys out there yet.

It's not a blight, it's just a simple numbers game. If you have more talented foreign players like you do now, it ups the overall talent level. There were some guys who played in the 90's who would likely be displaced by more talented foreign players today. The only asterisk I'd put on that is I'm not sure that foreign players are as likely to just "ball the fuck out" as American players might.

[DunderMifflin]

2 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

It's not a blight, it's just a simple numbers game. If you have more talented foreign players like you do now, it ups the overall talent level. There were some guys who played in the 90's who would likely be displaced by more talented foreign players today. The only asterisk I'd put on that is I'm not sure that foreign players are as likely to just "ball the fuck out" as American players might.

I don't know how much it's upping the talent pool. Scouting was already pretty advanced even in 92. People were aware who the best players in the world were then, just as they are today. The way I see it the international success of the nba has upped the talent pool in the rest of the world rather than foreign players raising the bar of the nba.

[Maithanet]

7 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

I debate you'd find many more international difference makers in the early 90s than there were. The sport itself wasn't as global back then, almost all the best international players at least got their shot in the nba. The rest of the world is catching up to the talent of USA basketball. They aren't caught up but are much more caught up than they were in the 90s. Divac, Petrovic, Hakeem were probably the best of the early 90s era. Other foreign players got a shot but fizzled out or were relegated to bench duty. I don't see that as a blight on 90s players just because there weren't enough good foreign guys out there yet.

I'm not really sure what point you're making here.  Millions of additional athletes competing for the scarce 450 NBA roster spots means the overall level of athleticism will be higher.  There are definitely American players in the D league that would be on NBA rosters if there weren't over 100 international players in the league right now.  And the reason those D-league guys aren't on rosters is because they aren't good enough.

3 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

It's not a blight, it's just a simple numbers game. If you have more talented foreign players like you do now, it ups the overall talent level. There were some guys who played in the 90's who would likely be displaced by more talented foreign players today. The only asterisk I'd put on that is I'm not sure that foreign players are as likely to just "ball the fuck out" as American players might.

Yeah, although I don't know what you're saying by "ball the fuck out".  Is this some comment on European players not being physical?  Because I thought that argument died decades ago. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Just now, DunderMifflin said:

I don't know how much it's upping the talent pool. Scouting was already pretty advanced even in 92. People were aware who the best players in the world were then, just as they are today. The way I see it the international success of the nba has upped the talent pool in the rest of the world rather than foreign players raising the bar of the nba.

True, but now you have another 25 years of growth and generational familiarity with the game. When you're looking at a pool of players who grew up playing and watching the game, the talent is likely to grow exponentially. It's kind of like the arguments you see regarding the shift in the MLB regarding less talent coming from the States. More kids are playing basketball and football and the like, and higher percentage of MLB players are coming from other countries.

5 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Yeah, although I don't know what you're saying by "ball the fuck out".  Is this some comment on European players not being physical?  Because I thought that argument died decades ago. 

 I was just running with the Dion Waiter's line that I had promised to work into my everyday conversations.