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NBA 2017: Playoffs? Playoffs?!

422 posts in this topic

12 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Ok, I have to get this off my chest and see what others here (who's bball IQ I highly respect) think.

What Russel has done this season is mind-blowing, and I don't care that the game has changed and helps his chances, we won't see it again for a long time. And, to me, there is no argument whatsoever who the MVP is, hands down. I don't care about wins. If you traded Harden and Westbrook the Thunder would be sub-.500 easy. It's a travesty it's even an argument, and I'm taking nothing away from Harden.

You've got that backwards. The pace back in the day was a lot faster, and I can't remember if this stat applies to teams or over all games, but there were 20-30 more possessions. That said I agree that Russ should be the MVP, but I disagree that if you swapped the two that the Thunder would be a sub .500 team. Harden might also average a triple double because of the style of play of the Thunder and he'd also average a lot more points. 

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15 hours ago, James Arryn said:

Actually, we should totally do a vanity board:player thing. 

So does that make me the Dion Waiters of Westeros? 

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41 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

You've got that backwards. The pace back in the day was a lot faster, and I can't remember if this stat applies to teams or over all games, but there were 20-30 more possessions. That said I agree that Russ should be the MVP, but I disagree that if you swapped the two that the Thunder would be a sub .500 team. Harden might also average a triple double because of the style of play of the Thunder and he'd also average a lot more points. 

I'm not talking about how it's changed from now to the time that Oscar played in. I'm mean from now, compared to the 80's until the past few years, when spread the floor and defensive rule changes have allowed for more offensive possessions and higher scoring games. This wouldnt have been possible in the 80's or 90's, it Is now.

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Lance Stephenson, living life by the Hobo Code.

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Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

I'm not talking about how it's changed from now to the time that Oscar played in. I'm mean from now, compared to the 80's until the past few years, when spread the floor and defensive rule changes have allowed for more offensive possessions and higher scoring games. This wouldnt have been possible in the 80's or 90's, it Is now.

True, but the game also features a different gear of athleticism these days that Oscar didn't have to deal with.  I think it was a lot easier to pad stats back then if you were an uber athlete compared to today when there are dozens of uber athletes in the league.  It's certainly a hell of a lot harder for a wing player to average ten boards a game today than it was when Oscar played (at least for someone as athletic as Oscar).

Edited by briantw

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1 hour ago, briantw said:

True, but the game also features a different gear of athleticism these days that Oscar didn't have to deal with.  I think it was a lot easier to pad stats back then if you were an uber athlete compared to today when there are dozens of uber athletes in the league.  It's certainly a hell of a lot harder for a wing player to average ten boards a game today than it was when Oscar played (at least for someone as athletic as Oscar).

Again, I am not comparing anything to Oscar's time period. And, both of you're arguments are valid. Just the slight changes in the game have made it possible for an extreme athlete like Russel to be able to even do this. It wont be done every year and i doubt we see it again in our lifetime. It was definitely easier in Oscar's time, but virtually impossible until these past few years to even have a chance. Its historic, and Westbrook has put this inferior team on his back and made them a playoff team. I don't see how you can argue against him being the MVP. If the argument is wins, then why isn't LeBron the MVP? He has #'s close to a T-D and his team will be the 1 seed in the East, yet we hear nothing about him. 

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38 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Again, I am not comparing anything to Oscar's time period. And, both of you're arguments are valid. Just the slight changes in the game have made it possible for an extreme athlete like Russel to be able to even do this. It wont be done every year and i doubt we see it again in our lifetime. It was definitely easier in Oscar's time, but virtually impossible until these past few years to even have a chance. Its historic, and Westbrook has put this inferior team on his back and made them a playoff team. I don't see how you can argue against him being the MVP. If the argument is wins, then why isn't LeBron the MVP? He has #'s close to a T-D and his team will be the 1 seed in the East, yet we hear nothing about him. 

I don't know.  I think LeBron could have done it in the past if he'd really tried to.

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4 minutes ago, briantw said:

I don't know.  I think LeBron could have done it in the past if he'd really tried to.

He's basically averaging 26/9/9 this year and Harden is averaging 29/11/8. The Greek Freak isn't quite on par statistically, but could also do it in theory. All you really need is a system like what OKC is running where the primary ball handler is also designed to get the rebounds.

 

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Just now, Tywin et al. said:

He's basically averaging 26/9/9 this year and Harden is averaging 29/11/8. The Greek Freak isn't quite on par statistically, but could also do it in theory. All you really need is a system like what OKC is running where the primary ball handler is also designed to get the rebounds.

 

You also need a player willing to go all out every single night, which is fun to watch but not particularly smart, as it really wears you down by postseason time.

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40 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Again, I am not comparing anything to Oscar's time period. And, both of you're arguments are valid. Just the slight changes in the game have made it possible for an extreme athlete like Russel to be able to even do this. It wont be done every year and i doubt we see it again in our lifetime. It was definitely easier in Oscar's time, but virtually impossible until these past few years to even have a chance. Its historic, and Westbrook has put this inferior team on his back and made them a playoff team. I don't see how you can argue against him being the MVP. If the argument is wins, then why isn't LeBron the MVP? He has #'s close to a T-D and his team will be the 1 seed in the East, yet we hear nothing about him. 

It's historic and anachronistic at the same time. Volume double digits are far less significant as a reflection of play than quality/efficiency metrics. Much more a reflection of allowance, pace, temperament and system. The only ways in which volume metrics are valuable are as measures of endurance, in relation to expected value/contrary to disallowance and where they are against more organic norms. In that respect defensive volume stats are more significant than offensive as defense is more reactive.

I mean, it means something...but what? FWIW I fully expect a similar advanced stat push-back/'old school' narrative to carry RW to the MVP. Part of that is simply the fact that Harden is the least aesthetically appealing superstar we've seen in a while, and it's somewhat ironic that he'll lose to an inversion of the argument that prevailed for Curry over him 2 years ago.

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19 hours ago, Fez said:

To answer the original question, I'm most looking to Jazz-Clippers because I think it will be the most competitive series and Wizards-Bucks because its the series that I have a (slight) chance of getting to see a game in-person.

As far the MVP goes, I pretty much always prefer the team guy to the raw stats guy, and that's the case here too. That said, Westbrook's numbers are so extraordinary that I have no problem whatsoever if he wins it.

Also, Cleveland has now won 4 straight, including last night's beatdown in Boston where LeBron had 36/10/6. Small sample size, but its starting to seem that they've found their playoff gear again.

I watched that game between Cavs and Celtics and LeBron just looked awesome to me.

This is why I never believe people who try to tell me he is past his best. He is very much in his prime and when you look at him, you see it. So light on his feet still, so fast, combined with that skill set and power.

Confirms my belief that no one beats the Cavs in the East, and that we are in for a good NBA finals series.

The other thing I was thinking was, as discussion was going on on tv about what the Celtics can do to make this a real rivalry over the next years, that a real rivalry would have been made if Durant had signed with The Wizards. Apparently that was never on the cards, but Wall, Beal *and* Durant? Now that does actually have the makings of a team that can go hard with this Cavs team.

As for the Celtics, getting Butler or George will be a great help. And yet I still think they'd fall a bit short of this Cavs team. They could really use another scorer though, and both these guys can do that.

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2 hours ago, Calibandar said:

I watched that game between Cavs and Celtics and LeBron just looked awesome to me.

This is why I never believe people who try to tell me he is past his best. He is very much in his prime and when you look at him, you see it. So light on his feet still, so fast, combined with that skill set and power.

Confirms my belief that no one beats the Cavs in the East, and that we are in for a good NBA finals series.

I watched about 5 minutes of that game and saw Lebron score like 8 straight, including a one handed dunk when he blew by Crowder with ease. On the other end he two hand blocked Smart and started slapping a bunch of fans five. I realized the small chance I was giving the Celtics to overtake Cavs probably should be much smaller. 

I feel like he can score 50 a game if he wanted to. Dude is just straight unstoppable with a head of steam.

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3 hours ago, Calibandar said:

This is why I never believe people who try to tell me he is past his best. He is very much in his prime and when you look at him, you see it. So light on his feet still, so fast, combined with that skill set and power.

I think LeBron has fully embraced the Gregg Popovich stance that the playoffs are all that matters and that for the most part he's not going to go anywhere close to 100% in the regular season. But even though resting is a thing throughout the NBA, people aren't used to seeing anyone outside the Spurs fully embracing it like that. So they assume LeBron is past his prime. And then along comes a game where LeBron decides to give it his all because homecourt is on the line or its a rival or he just wants to, and they just look foolish.

I also think that because LeBron has been so good for so long, and because the "he can't win the big game" arguments long since disappeared, a lot of people, especially analysts, are just tired of talking about him. What else is there to say that hasn't been said for years? So they look for other players to talk up instead. 

Its true that he won't be the MVP this year, Harden and Westbrook have been just too extraordinary in their output; but LeBron's just as good as he ever has been.

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So, RB confirmed with the triple double average. rather excellent quote from him on if he was trying to pad assists late: "I was 6 for 25. What the f*** you want me to do?"  

Celtics have the best odds on 1st spot in the draft, if they can get a star onboard and make the high draft pay off, they could be lethal moving forward. 

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On 4/6/2017 at 5:37 PM, briantw said:

I don't know.  I think LeBron could have done it in the past if he'd really tried to.

I remember during his prime Jason Kidd said he started one season trying to do it. He said probably could have done it but he gave it up pretty early in the season because he thought his stat obsession was costing them wins

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Ricky Davis could have averaged a triple double if left to his own devices.

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Russell Westbrook has made history. 42 triple doubles in a single season. I never thought I'd see Big O's record broken in my lifetime. He is easily the MVP this season.

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Today was one of the best performances in regular season history. 50-16-10 with 2 turnovers, on better than 50% shooting and hit a game winning 3 pointer from 36 feet out with his team down by 2 and the clock expiring.

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This has got to be the year that the MVP goes to a guy on a team that isn't in the top 2 in the standings. If it doesn't than Westbrook is getting robbed. 

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