Relic

NBA 2017: Playoffs? Playoffs?!

430 posts in this topic

Whoever loses can feel pretty hard done by, realistically is 12 & 8 any worse than 10 & 10, other than for historic significance?

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8 hours ago, Relic said:

This has got to be the year that the MVP goes to a guy on a team that isn't in the top 2 in the standings. If it doesn't than Westbrook is getting robbed. 

Not sure I see it that way. Given the definition that we've pretty much arrived at over the years, Harden is the Most Valuable Player. It's not the Outstanding Individual Effort award. 

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13 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Not sure I see it that way. Given the definition that we've pretty much arrived at over the years, Harden is the Most Valuable Player. It's not the Outstanding Individual Effort award. 


That's not true either. Harden is on a team that is a distant 3rd place in the conference. That's not consistent at all with "the way it's always been done", which of course by itself is a terrible rationale to begin with.

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2 minutes ago, sperry said:

That's not true either. Harden is on a team that is a distant 3rd place in the conference. That's not consistent at all with "the way it's always been done", which of course by itself is a terrible rationale to begin with.

Eh, in a sport where the team dynamic is as important as it is in basketball, I think the precedent makes sense. It is consistent with the precedent. It's almost always the guy with the best stats on a 1-3 contender. OKC has the 6th slot. They are not a contender. Right or wrong, that's the precedent.

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Posted (edited)

It's also not the "average a triple double award" 

I guess they could do some sort of detailed stat analysis and let a software program pick the MVP every year based on mathematics of individual statistics. Which seems just as silly as giving it to a good player on one of the best teams.

How much value is there in a middling playoff team anyway. Sure you take away the superstar and the average team becomes a shit team, but the value of being nowhere close to the top just isnt that much imo.

Edited by DunderMifflin

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I would like it if the thunder beat the rockets but I just can't see it happening. How many top teams have they beaten this season. They don't seem to be able last  the full 4 quarters against the best. And to beat the Rockets 4 times? Very slim chance even if the rockets aren't going to get the rings.

Westbrook is the MVP but will not be doing triple doubles as much in the playoffs. Harden will dominate this tie. 

4-1 to the rockets.

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25 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Eh, in a sport where the team dynamic is as important as it is in basketball, I think the precedent makes sense. It is consistent with the precedent. It's almost always the guy with the best stats on a 1-3 contender. OKC has the 6th slot. They are not a contender. Right or wrong, that's the precedent.

 

It is always the 1 or 2 seed, and almost always the 1 seed. So even by the arbitrary distinction of the way it's always been done, Harden is excluded. And it's not like they are close to being a 1 or 2, they're as far back from the 2 seed as OKC is to them. 

 

12 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

It's also not the "average a triple double award" 

I guess they could do some sort of detailed stat analysis and let a software program pick the MVP every year bases on mathematics of individual statistics. Which seems just as silly as giving it to a good player in one of the best teams.

How much value is there in a middling playoff team anyway. Sure you take away the superstar and the average team becomes a shit team, but the value of being nowhere close to the top just isnt that much imo.

 

I don't agree with the argument, but if you want to make it best player on a team that has a legitimate shot to win the title, then it goes to Kawhi, or Steph, or LeBron.

 

There has usually been an extremely strong correlation between the best players in the league having the best seasons playing on the best teams. That's not the case this year.  Harden and Westbrook are having the two best seasons, and it's not close, and neither is playing for a legitimate title contender.

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Just now, sperry said:

There has usually been an extremely strong correlation between the best players in the league having the best seasons playing on the best teams. That's not the case this year.  Harden and Westbrook are having the two best seasons, and it's not close, and neither is playing for a legitimate title contender.

Have to disagree there. Houston is legit. They are arguably the 3rd or 4th best team in the league. They have a shot at the title. If they were in the East, they'd have a much better shot at the title.

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Posted (edited)

18 minutes ago, sperry said:

 

It is always the 1 or 2 seed, and almost always the 1 seed. So even by the arbitrary distinction of the way it's always been done, Harden is excluded. And it's not like they are close to being a 1 or 2, they're as far back from the 2 seed as OKC is to them. 

 

 

I don't agree with the argument, but if you want to make it best player on a team that has a legitimate shot to win the title, then it goes to Kawhi, or Steph, or LeBron.

 

There has usually been an extremely strong correlation between the best players in the league having the best seasons playing on the best teams. That's not the case this year.  Harden and Westbrook are having the two best seasons, and it's not close, and neither is playing for a legitimate title contender.

Rox have about as much of a shot as the Bulls did when Derrick Rose won. 

I don't know why Kawhi Leonard seems to be an afterthought, he'd be a fine choice for mvp this season.

And there's not always correlation with great individual stats and top teams.  Anthony Davis should have already been mvp a couple of times if thats what it's about. Hes had a string of impressive stat stuffing seasons.

Edited by DunderMifflin

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4 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

Rox have about as much of a shot as the Bulls did when Derrick Rose won. 

I don't know why Kawhi Leonard seems to be an afterthought, he'd be a fine choice for mvp this season.

And there's not always correlation with great individual stats and top teams.  Anthony Davis should have already been mvp a couple of times if thats what it's about. Hes had a string of impressive stat stuffing seasons.

 

Davis's problem has been that he misses 20% of the season every year. This is his first time to break the 70 games plateau. Kawhi is just not having the season that Westbrook or Harden are having.

 

21 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Have to disagree there. Houston is legit. They are arguably the 3rd or 4th best team in the league. They have a shot at the title. If they were in the East, they'd have a much better shot at the title.

 

They are somewhere in the 3-6 range in terms of best teams in the NBA, but they've got zero shot at a title.

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3 minutes ago, sperry said:

They are somewhere in the 3-6 range in terms of best teams in the NBA, but they've got zero shot at a title.

The mathematicians disagree with you. Sportsline gives them about a 3% chance at winning the title. ;)

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There are certain statistical milemarkers where I think writers feel obligated to award the MVP, even if another player is (slightly) more deserving. Much like how Miguel Cabrera easily won the MVP after hitting the Triple Crown, even though Mike Trout was better; I'm pretty sure Westbrook will win the MVP here, albeit maybe not as easily.

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I was originally all for giving the award to Harden, but the Rockets have tailed off significantly since then.  If they had been up there record-wise with the Spurs or Warriors, I think he wins it.  However, given the way the standings are now, I say just give it to Westbrook.  

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2 hours ago, DunderMifflin said:

I don't know why Kawhi Leonard seems to be an afterthought, he'd be a fine choice for mvp this season.

Mainly because we put too much emphasis on offensive statistics. Being the best two way player won't win you the MVP if other guys are putting up insane stats.

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32 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Mainly because we put too much emphasis on offensive statistics. Being the best two way player won't win you the MVP if other guys are putting up insane stats.

Generally speaking, I think MVP is code for Offensive Player of the Year, which is why Defensive Player of the Year is its own award.

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20 minutes ago, briantw said:

Generally speaking, I think MVP is code for Offensive Player of the Year, which is why Defensive Player of the Year is its own award.

I don't like it but I have to agree. A players defensive skills probably only serve as a tie breaker. Unfortunately for Harden, he's one of the worst defensive players in league, though Russ isn't all that much better.

Also, has there ever been a superstar scorer with a less aesthetically pleasing game than Harden? 

Also also, two rare things occurred last night. The Cavs had the third biggest 4th quarter collapse in NBA history and Wiggins and Towns were just the 14th pair of players to go for 40 in a game. 

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2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Wiggins and Towns were just the 14th pair of players to go for 40 in a game. 

I think the last time that happened was LeBron and Kyrie in the Finals last year.

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Another crazy stat: In the history of the NBA, only five players have ever averaged a stat line of 25/8/8 and it's only been done nine times. Three of those players/times are happening this season, and this feat hasn't been achieved since 1989. 

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1 minute ago, briantw said:

I think the last time that happened was LeBron and Kyrie in the Finals last year.

I believe that was game six. I'm also pretty sure Wiggins and Towns are the only players to do it in a lose, but I'm not 100%. 

Just goes to show how the team has been undercut by a lack of depth. 

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If you're a fan of the NBA and cannot see the significance of what Westbrook has done this year, well I think you need to rethink it. He broke not one, but 2 records that no one thought could be broken, all the while leading a sub par roster to a playoff berth. He has willed them to victories on so many occasions this year, it's ridiculous. We will not see this again in our lifetime. He is without a doubt the Most Valuable Player in this league to his team, hands down. I don't even see how it's a argument. And, many players in the league feel the exact same way. As @Relic said, if he doesnt get it, its highway robbery.

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